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Author Topic: Don't Jump In Lava  (Read 13167 times)

Neonivek

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Re: Don't Jump In Lava
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2008, 07:52:07 am »

Actually in any movie when people fight at the edge of the a bridge /chasm / magma pot they are pretty well aware of that, they bend of he cliff. Try to toss the other into that cliff. But never ever one jumps backwards to dodge a blow to find himself in the deep chasm / magma pot / underwater drowning.

That is because they are the main characters... it happens to minor characters, like the dwarves in your fortress would be if it was a movie.

Well alright... also excluding the many times it has happened to main characters.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2008, 07:54:37 am by Neonivek »
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catpaw

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Re: Don't Jump In Lava
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2008, 08:03:07 am »

Actually in any movie when people fight at the edge of the a bridge /chasm / magma pot they are pretty well aware of that, they bend of he cliff. Try to toss the other into that cliff. But never ever one jumps backwards to dodge a blow to find himself in the deep chasm / magma pot / underwater drowning.

That is because they are the main characters... it happens to minor characters, like the dwarves in your fortress would be if it was a movie.

Well alright... also excluding the many times it has happened to main characters.

Examples?
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Neonivek

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Re: Don't Jump In Lava
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2008, 08:13:41 am »

Let me try to remember...

IGNORING COMEDY!!! (As I doubt they count)

Tarzan the villain strangled himself by blindly cutting vines losing awareness of his surroundings

Beauty and the Beast: Gaston killed himself, I cannot remember how... but I believe the beast didn't do it.

The Land Before Time: Ignoring all the times the main characters fell off a cliff simply by not looking where they were going, even outside combat... many of the enemy dinosaurs fell into lava or water simply by not looking where they were going.

The Lion King

Whoa... way too early in the day for this... I will come back to this.
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LumenPlacidum

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Re: Don't Jump In Lava
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2008, 08:16:28 am »

The dwarves are aware of the fall, and they know they don't want to jump off, so they dodge, but lose their balance in doing so (suddenly changing position often does that) and they fall down.  The problem is, "falling down" next to a drop sometimes means falling a long way... into the boiling core of the earth.
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catpaw

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Re: Don't Jump In Lava
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2008, 08:22:38 am »

The dwarves are aware of the fall, and they know they don't want to jump off, so they dodge, but lose their balance in doing so (suddenly changing position often does that) and they fall down.  The problem is, "falling down" next to a drop sometimes means falling a long way... into the boiling core of the earth.

Well a balance check "dice roll" would be nice, improved chances by agility. But right now, they will always jump into the pit...

And now to a  totally unrelated comment: THIS IS SPARTAAAAAAAAAA!
« Last Edit: September 15, 2008, 08:24:23 am by catpaw »
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Neonivek

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Re: Don't Jump In Lava
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2008, 08:24:11 am »

However on the plus side... Enemies will ALSO jump into the pit... they will also lunge into your dwarf and have both of them fall into the pit
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Yanlin

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Re: Don't Jump In Lava
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2008, 08:29:33 am »

Ok... First, let's discuss martial arts.

ANY untrained dwarf or human would by ACCIDENT dodge into the lava. But you don't consider dispersed heat? Humans and dwarves AVOID going in the direction of heat unless sentiently decide to do so. As in dodging into an area you know is dangerous does NOT happen. Even with novices.

Of course a fall is different. Falls, sure. Bug Magma? NO!

Now let's factor in skill. Any person who trained at least a bit in any martial art knows how to keep an eye on his surroundings. Krav Maga has that as a core element. If you can use something as a weapon against your opponent, you will! That can be even making THEM dodge into the magma.

Awareness in combat is NOT as hard as people make it sound.



As for disrupting a fight between two fighters who are totally concentrated, well... They are not going to hit you on purpose. They can easily tell apart you from their enemies. Unless they never seen you before.
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Ascii Kid

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Re: Don't Jump In Lava
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2008, 08:31:38 am »

Which paves the way for the most satisfying kind of kill in the game, to me; those rare times when your dwarf doesn't even jump out of the way, but sidesteps and the couger races right by and into a lake.  HI-larious.
Also, more on topic, Toady has posted the stats that might come into play when that thread is unravelled, and one of those stats is something like "Enviromental Awareness" or "Situational Aware" something like that, but it could provide some protection against this very thing from happening.  Ie. The battle-hardened vet probably would have seen a few of his buddies die by poor dodging, and has learned to keep his wits about him.  Of course, that could also negitivally impact conditions concerning suprise and reaction time. 
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Neonivek

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Re: Don't Jump In Lava
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2008, 08:34:52 am »

Which paves the way for the most satisfying kind of kill in the game, to me; those rare times when your dwarf doesn't even jump out of the way, but sidesteps and the couger races right by and into a lake.  HI-larious.
Also, more on topic, Toady has posted the stats that might come into play when that thread is unravelled, and one of those stats is something like "Enviromental Awareness" or "Situational Aware" something like that, but it could provide some protection against this very thing from happening.  Ie. The battle-hardened vet probably would have seen a few of his buddies die by poor dodging, and has learned to keep his wits about him.  Of course, that could also negitivally impact conditions concerning suprise and reaction time. 

Hopefully those stats will also prevent the Timmy problem
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Ascii Kid

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Re: Don't Jump In Lava
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2008, 08:40:49 am »

Ok... First, let's discuss martial arts.

ANY untrained dwarf or human would by ACCIDENT dodge into the lava. But you don't consider dispersed heat? Humans and dwarves AVOID going in the direction of heat unless sentiently decide to do so. As in dodging into an area you know is dangerous does NOT happen. Even with novices.

Of course a fall is different. Falls, sure. Bug Magma? NO!

Now let's factor in skill. Any person who trained at least a bit in any martial art knows how to keep an eye on his surroundings. Krav Maga has that as a core element. If you can use something as a weapon against your opponent, you will! That can be even making THEM dodge into the magma.

Awareness in combat is NOT as hard as people make it sound.

As for disrupting a fight between two fighters who are totally concentrated, well... They are not going to hit you on purpose. They can easily tell apart you from their enemies. Unless they never seen you before.

That's normally true, but as anyone who's ever been in a STREET fight (ie. potentially a fight for your life) will tell you is that all training can go out the window.  Get a room full of Bikers and Black belt in the craziest martial arts you can name, but who've never been in a fight, and my money goes to the Bikers.  I've seen people run INTO traffic to get away from a punch to the head, let alone someone swinging a gigantic axe at your head. 
The point you about the heat (and even the smell, which would be overwhelming), once your engaged in combat at a point where one false move could send you tumbling into said liquid hot magma, then Murphies Law takes over from there. 
Think about it: No one would normally run up to the edge of a pool of magma, unless they where going there for a reason.  The reason is "I want to stop this hell beast before it starts burning everything in site" so they run to fight.  Stupidly, they run RIGHT to the edge of the pool, draw out a HEAVY, metal axe and swing it around with savage fury.  Occasionally they even go berserk, a state in which self preservation is totally forgotten.  I'm suprised they don't fall in more often, really, and the image is really epic. 

My advice is to station the hand-to-hand fighters near the pool and don't them them roam.  When the beasties move a little furthure away from the hellfires of creation, THEN go attack them.
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catpaw

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Re: Don't Jump In Lava
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2008, 08:47:33 am »

That's normally true, but as anyone who's ever been in a STREET fight (ie. potentially a fight for your life) will tell you

I don't know of the personal background of my fellow posters, but WTF, you were really ever in a streetfight about life and death? I sure wasn't.... And if not, how would you know what someone who did would tell, or do you just assume?
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LumenPlacidum

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Re: Don't Jump In Lava
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2008, 09:00:31 am »

Street fight?  Nope.  Not one that really counts, anyway.  The extent of my experience with combat comes from a sportified martial art, but that does involve the wearing of armor.  Without the armor, I could very easily see people being quite aware of the presence of a dangerous area.  Sometimes, people lose balance because they overcompensate for that awareness.  With armor, and a helm in particular, awareness of your surroundings drops very significantly.

The point made before about pushing someone out of the ring is pretty valid.  The opponent knows they don't want to go backwards too far, but isn't quite sure whether each step is allowed.
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Neonivek

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Re: Don't Jump In Lava
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2008, 09:06:18 am »

Some Martial arts (That includes weapons...) actually train on the concept of blocking out your surroundings to increase your attention to the opponent.

Ohh and your rather incorrect about people accidently punching Refs without even realising they had done it... but I guess we are working on a proof system... so I will have to actually find that invo.

However may I ask: Why is the burden of proof on the "Them falling into lava by mistake makes sense" side?
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Ascii Kid

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Re: Don't Jump In Lava
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2008, 09:15:17 am »

Quote
I don't know of the personal background of my fellow posters, but WTF, you were really ever in a streetfight about life and death? I sure wasn't.... And if not, how would you know what someone who did would tell, or do you just assume?

It will sound like bullcrap, but yes, many.  I REALLY have seen people run into traffic to dodge, a source of quick movement, loud noise, pretty much all the dangers signs one could think of.  Thus, I totally believe that a dwarf, on one knee or something, springing from a sword thrust, would realise with a horrible sinking that he's now on fire.
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"...you'll have you live with your GRANDmother and pick beans!"
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catpaw

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Re: Don't Jump In Lava
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2008, 09:32:32 am »

It will sound like bullcrap, but yes, many.  I REALLY have seen people run into traffic to dodge, a source of quick movement, loud noise, pretty much all the dangers signs one could think of.  Thus, I totally believe that a dwarf, on one knee or something, springing from a sword thrust, would realise with a horrible sinking that he's now on fire.

a) did you see people? Or did you yourself? If first how did you know what they would tell you?
b) Crossing over by red on heavy street is equal to a fight of life and death,... come on..
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