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[Jisaan]

I know they've been suggested before, but it seems like it's always in response to a different suggestion, so I figured I'd give it a topic of its own. Also, I did see Req539, but it doesn't specify whether it means digging without tools, or digging with a tool other than a shovel. I'll come back to this later.

So, basic idea. They could dig through soil layers, but not through rock. They could probably be made of wood, most likely metal, and might be small enough for use by creatures such as kobolds, allowing them to dig their own caves, up to a point.

A few reasons I make the suggestion... First is that it would allow you to build a real fort even if you embarked without a pick, axe, or the ability to make either, while still creating a challenge. The downside is that it means you have to intentionally ignore a feature if you want the current challenge of embarking without tools, but I think that's better than having to arbitrarily forbid your dwarves from digging out stone even though they have picks.

Also, it's rather odd that dwarves currently dig through soil with picks, when they're obviously not well suited for the job. But then, I'm not sure if having shovels would justify removing that capability from picks, since it would be rather irritating to require that miners carry both picks and shovels, or to have two professions needed for digging out a fortress. I suppose that wouldn't be a problem if there's a cliffside nearby, however, which seems fitting enough. Either way would work I suppose.

Shovels might also be useful for tasks other than digging, which actually is mostly why I bring them up. First thing that comes to mind is the suggestion that this entire topic was originally a response to, being the ability to dig up boulders. Other possibilities include filling in holes, which I believe was mentioned recently, and collecting sand or clay. No doubt there are others, but none come immediately to mind, and some of them are probably beyond the foreseeable future.

Now, as promised, back to Req539. Assuming that it did include shovels as a not-very-dwarven digging method that might be allowed, I suppose my only argument is that the other races would probably benefit from it, even if the dwarves don't, allowing modders to use them without sacrificing the current playstyle in the vanilla game. Would also add some diversity to the other races, and I imagine it would be a simply enough matter to make it too large for dwarves... Got to feel sorry for the kobolds though.

[dizzyelk]

Could be used for burying treasure in adventurer mode? Farmers might need shovels for planting, or even for that soil moving thread I saw, but am too lazy to search for. The only problems I see with shovels is that they don't seem to add enough to justify their inclusion.

[Pilsu]

The game has several different types of underwear, I don't think things need to be important to be included 

[Granite26]

Item tag for only item that only digs in dirt?  Would be handy.  (I like framing suggestions in terms of additions to raws)

[profit]

The farming idea seems solid, Perhaps add 25% to the yield or something if a farmer has a shovel or increase planting time 100% if they don't.

* Side note a farmer should be able to carry a bag of seeds with them So they do not have to plant a mushroom.... walk back to the store room.... Plant another mushroom... Ect.. but thats just minor details....

[BradB]

Perhaps make picks dig slow through soil (peasant rock mining speed), and shovels dig normal speed through it, but cannot dig through rock. (or very very slowly through rock [1/4 peasant rock mining speed?])

[zagibu]

I'd like it if picks didn't work for soil and shovels didn't work for stone at all.

[Tormy]

I'd like it if picks didn't work for soil and shovels didn't work for stone at all.

This..it would be realistic. 

[Granite26]

I'd like it if there were separate tags for [able to dig in dirt] and [able to dig in stone]

fix'd

[ogion]

A few reasons I make the suggestion... First is that it would allow you to build a real fort even if you embarked without a pick, axe, or the ability to make either, while still creating a challenge. The downside is that it means you have to intentionally ignore a feature if you want the current challenge of embarking without tools, but I think that's better than having to arbitrarily forbid your dwarves from digging out stone even though they have picks.

Why would you embark with a shovel instead of a pick? Doesn't make sense....

Also, it's rather odd that dwarves currently dig through soil with picks, when they're obviously not well suited for the job.

Oh but they are! How many ditches have you dug? I personally have a few miles of ditches behind me...

Shovels might also be useful for tasks other than digging, which actually is mostly why I bring them up. First thing that comes to mind is the suggestion that this entire topic was originally a response to, being the ability to dig up boulders.

This I agree on though. It's a valid point. Why sending out engravers in the middle of the forest to smooth a rock for the wagons to pass, rater than having a miner or a woodcutter just dig it out and move it aside? Would also help make arable soilpatches in say ryolite areas etc.


I think you need some real experience with shovles and picks beofre making assumptions as to their area of use.

[DJ]

I'd like it if picks didn't work for soil and shovels didn't work for stone at all.

This..it would be realistic. 

I dug soil with a pick just a couple of days ago, and it worked great. Much better than a shovel, which is mainly useful for throwing the dug soil out of the ditch. Shovels are nearly useless against clay that hasn't been broken into pieces with a pick.

[Pickerel]

I can confirm.  Picks work great in soil.  Not the best at hauling soil, but MUCH better at breaking it up then a shovel, and much easier to use, especially in rocky soils where every tiny rock stops a shovel (***curses my garden soil in all it's malice***)

[Idiom]

Seconded. Digging channels in soil with a pick ever made any sense.

[Jisaan]

All right, guess I was mistaken about picks... I've never used anything but shovels myself, so I had to guess a bit there. Even so, it seems to be more or less agreed that they are useful for actually removing the dirt after the pick has broken it up, so if anything it would probably make sense to use both...

Of course, that's a bit too strict as a requirement, so I think the best way to do it would be to have either tool work for soil, but without either of them working as well as both carried by the same miner... Which would naturally require shovels to use mining. Not sure how difficult that would be to implement, but short of the ideal, simply having one tool or the other function about the same in dirt would work fine.

As for embarking with a shovel instead of a pick, it's the same reason some people embark with nothing but peasants, or on an evil glacier... A challenge which is somewhat unrealistic, but at least explainable. Though actually, it's not so much embarking with a shovel as it is embarking without any supplies whatsoever, and building a shovel once you've arrived, using the wood from the wagon. Of course, you can embark without supplies now for an even greater challenge, but it's rather boring.

[Granite26]

give shovels the dig_dirt tag and picks the dig_dirt and dig_stone tags?