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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items  (Read 3528086 times)

Granite26

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #4905 on: September 22, 2009, 10:40:15 am »

Normal soap can get rid of several kinds of bacteria by removing what it connects to.

As for alcohol the question is in what form it comes in. Is it ordinary alcoholic beverages? or is it things like rubbing alcohol?

Doesn't matter... If you look earlier in the thread you'll see the discussion about that.  (short version:  Rubbing alcohol is drinking alcohol with nasty taste, vomit inducer, and poison added in order to protect government taxes on drinking alcohol while making disinfectant cheap.)

G-Flex

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #4906 on: September 22, 2009, 11:07:17 am »

Some rubbing alcohol is actually isopropyl alcohol, though, not ethanol. Drinking it isn't really the greatest idea.

And Neonivek is right in that antibiotic soap isn't actually, well, necessary. Just plain decent soap and water is enough to remove germs. There are a billion studies on the fact that handwashing with soap actually works.

Antibiotic soap helps, but it's a stupid idea for everyday household use because, in addition to being almost entirely unnecessary (see what I said above), it's often slow-acting and also promotes adaptive resistance of bacteria to the compounds involved, which is enough of a problem in hospitals, never mind if everyone does it in their own homes.
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smjjames

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #4907 on: September 22, 2009, 11:21:41 am »

Hey, I don't know if anybody has thought of this yet, but with custom workshops having the potential to be as big as 30x30, what about multiple dwarves using the same workshop at the same time?

I'm not exactly sure what applications a workshop requiring multiple dwarves could be used for since they can already carry ballistia bolts which are 3 tiles long or carry a bin weighing a few tons. Maybe something that requires more than one dwarf to make.

Actually, I just thought of one, some sort of pumping complex.

HEY, you know, we could make our own machines this way using custom workshops! Maybe even make gear router complexes. Hell, I think this just blew wide open more possibilities as far as mechanics.

Edit:

Oh yea, Toady, how are we going to be making the custom workshops, will there be a screen for this or like what? I'm sure a whole bunch of it will involve going into the raws themselves.

Edit: nm, I think all of the editing is raw based, like all modding.

Edit: Made the first one green as it's probably something only toady can answer.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2009, 11:30:30 am by smjjames »
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Granite26

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #4908 on: September 22, 2009, 11:25:11 am »

Some rubbing alcohol is actually isopropyl alcohol, though, not ethanol. Drinking it isn't really the greatest idea.

And Neonivek is right in that antibiotic soap isn't actually, well, necessary. Just plain decent soap and water is enough to remove germs. There are a billion studies on the fact that handwashing with soap actually works.

Antibiotic soap helps, but it's a stupid idea for everyday household use because, in addition to being almost entirely unnecessary (see what I said above), it's often slow-acting and also promotes adaptive resistance of bacteria to the compounds involved, which is enough of a problem in hospitals, never mind if everyone does it in their own homes.

Yeah... All true...  Doesn't make soap a disinfectant or a difference in what alcohol you use as a disinfectant, but vital for people making real world decisions based on this info.

smjjames

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #4909 on: September 22, 2009, 11:38:56 am »

Another thought, since we are now going to be able to build downwards (the rope ladder thing) and if that can apply that function to other things, maybe it will be possible to create what is in effect, a really long archimedes screw. I know we have the pump stacks, but I'm talking about a long one tile sized tube extending several z-levels, or in short, a drill pipe. It certanly won't remove pump stacks, but would be useful in a confined space.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #4910 on: September 22, 2009, 12:36:09 pm »

Another thought, since we are now going to be able to build downwards (the rope ladder thing) and if that can apply that function to other things, maybe it will be possible to create what is in effect, a really long archimedes screw. I know we have the pump stacks, but I'm talking about a long one tile sized tube extending several z-levels, or in short, a drill pipe. It certanly won't remove pump stacks, but would be useful in a confined space.

Building downward with rope ladders or whatever is still marked "Consider."  Here's the last word on it:

Quote
Quote from: finesse
Are you still looking at a ladder/thing that can be built from above for this release? So long as animals can't climb them we can dump them in an animal pit only once, and butcher as they prosper. As it stands, even pet impassible doors are a big nono since they continually try to path past them and slow the FPS down to a crawl.
Quote from: Greiger
Probably not there yet, but is there any plans to make the rope/ladder system that allows dwarves to climb into a lower area only a temporary solution for getting down?  For example could it take damage every time a dwarf uses it or prevent hauling making the player have to replace the rope eventually with more permanent constructions?
Quote from: smjjames
I thought part of the point would be to prevent animals from climbing it. Primates and other animals capable of grasping a rope with hands could definetly be able to climb it, but realistically a horse wouldn't be able to.
Quote from: Aqizzar
I thought it was ropes and ladders because those are physically possible, while building a staircase downward into open space is not.  Which would hardly be the first law of physics DF breaks, but it would get the job done.

Yeah, it's a bit odd to build staircases from above, though it's unclear what will happen in the end.  If I do add ropes, all critters will probably be able to use them, because I don't have more control over path-finding.  Hopefully that will change at some point, but it's not as urgent a concern as being able to get down into open spaces, which will be a pressing matter for this release.
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smjjames

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #4911 on: September 22, 2009, 12:44:56 pm »

It was more of a 'what if' or a 'this would be cool' thought that I wanted to post. I know that Toady hasn't actually gotten this to work yet.
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Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #4912 on: September 22, 2009, 01:15:21 pm »

Quote
Yeah... All true...  Doesn't make soap a disinfectant


Yes but it doesn't make soap useless against bacteria.

It just means that against an ongoing infection it won't be too helpful.
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Mike Mayday

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #4913 on: September 22, 2009, 02:35:39 pm »

Booze? Soap?
HERESY! Magma is the only disinfectant.
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Dante

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #4914 on: September 22, 2009, 03:11:22 pm »

Another thought, since we are now going to be able to build downwards (the rope ladder thing) and if that can apply that function to other things, maybe it will be possible to create what is in effect, a really long archimedes screw. I know we have the pump stacks, but I'm talking about a long one tile sized tube extending several z-levels, or in short, a drill pipe. It certanly won't remove pump stacks, but would be useful in a confined space.

This might even be worth making a suggestion for in eternal voting. I know that a ridiculous amount of my time is spent making pump stacks, and the scaffolding for pump stacks, and fixing pump stacks that are misaligned.
Even if it cost more power than the equivalent number of pumps per Z-level, having a simple construction (maybe made out of just pipes and corkscrews) would make things so much easier.

Belteshazzar

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #4915 on: September 22, 2009, 03:16:06 pm »

Depending on how fresh the soap is (how much lye still remains) even normal soap can have antibiotic properties by interfering with the cohesion of the lipid bilayer (integral component of the cellular membrane!) However most pathogenic cells will have a gel capsule to prevent just this sort of interference.

However, a particularly fresh soap would likely still have enough lye to effect humans as well as bacteria by attempting to turn your surface layers into soap, hence the common practice aging soap so as to reduce harshness. If you have ever had bleach come in contact with your skin you have likely felt this slickness on your fingers as your skin cells are turned into soap!

Alcohol by contrast works not by degrading the phospholipid bilayer into soap, but by ignoring the hydrophobic nature of the bilayer and directly denaturing the proteins of the cell structure itself.

Effectively the comparison is between: throwing bricks as a brick building until the walls are also brick piles (lye and soap), and removing the steel girders and framework that helps support the brickwork itself (alcohol.)
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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #4916 on: September 22, 2009, 07:46:42 pm »

Quote from: Neonivek
Any plans for catgut?

It has come up a few times now for its use in instruments and for sutures, and now that I have guts with their own material, it's something we can start to consider seriously.  Once a single animal can give you so many useful things, we might have to look at getting them eating back in the game as a proper trade off.

Quote from: Neonivek
Toady in the future will there be castes, or I guess subcastes, that arn't build exactly off probability but rather achievement, circumstance, rank, or even training?
-I guess a mundane example would be a Newt, in ideal circumstances it never becomes a Salamander. A more fantastical example would be the Celestial Heigharchy where gods of higher rank are bestowed with greater power.

Once the general metamorphosis problem is solved, then yeah, it'll be pretty easy to do whatever we want.  In the beginning, it'll likely just be toad-like examples and insect-like examples, but then we can move on to all of whatever with little extra difficulty.

Quote from: Mephansteras
Will there be any changes to the history and site logs that the game outputs for this release?

I'm not sure anything has happened with the site logs.  I told somebody I'd consider an xml dump of the legends for this release, and I'm going to do that, but I'm going to have to skip it if it looks time-consuming.

Quote from: Footkerchief
I was actually going for something much more basic -- whether, when defining an entity position, you can do something like... [allowing multiple castes for positions]

Ah, yeah, you're going to have a few options there.  Gender, specific caste lists, and general categories.

Quote from: tehstefan
How much faster do wounds heal now, with all the health care additions?

I haven't tested it all out, but I'd like healing times to reflect reality in adventure mode, and to be slower than that in dwarf mode (there isn't much of a point having minor cuts if they just heal in 10 real-time seconds), but to still heal up if they can heal up, unlike the current haphazard times for serious wounds in dwarf mode.  I've got lots of extra rates and counters to control this now.

Quote from: eduren
Can we have a few options in the 'orders' menu regarding washing of dwarves? Such as "Dwarves don't clean themselves"(Simulated water conservation, desert dwarves would use water sparingly) and/or "Only nobles clean themselves"?

I don't have anything like that now, but we can consider some things once we see how it plays out a little more.

Quote from: LordNagash
It seems that at the moment, wounds will heal whether they are treated or not, all treatment does it speed it up. How far away are we from wounds not healing at all if untreated/poorly treated? Say for example you get a broken bone - if you're not treated it could heal really badly and leave a permanent disability.

Also, another question I just came up with while writing this - if someone has a compund break, can you target the bone sticking out of the skin with wrestling? Because wow, that wound be insanely disturbing/awesome

There are lots of wounds that won't heal now if they aren't treated (aside from the nerve stuff, the three kinds of bad breaks won't heal if not treated), and infected wounds heal very slowly.

We have a power goal for using a compound fracture for something, I think, but right now since it is a tissue and not a body part, it doesn't have special targeting.  Beards also have this problem.  It'll need to be handled later.  Guts that have popped out are a full body part, so they work.

Quote from: bluephoenix
Will we be able send out soldiers to fight other civs? and will the fighting be similar to legends fights(as in you wont be able to see the fight which would also be great and your soldiers will ignore landscape, traps ect. and only fight the soldiers that are on the civ list)?

We're aiming to have off-site fights you can see, control and contribute to later on, but we need to do some more with armies on the world map, and improved sieges are also slated first.

Quote from: Outcast Orange
What if there was a workshop you could build next to a water source, (a pump may be required for its construction)
which could use one barrel, reduce the adjacent water tile value by 2 and leave you with a water-filled barrel?
Then you could store your water in stock piles, or carry it between forts, or If you live in the desert, buy it from elves.
Also, you could "build" one of these barrels somewhere, then have your dwarf "activate it" similar to a lever. It would then be replaced by the amount of water supposedly in it.

The well already moves water from the map flows to a bucket in that way, so adding something like this isn't outside the realm of possibility, but I don't have specific plans extra water stuff yet.  I know there are lots of threads on all kinds of methods for for desert/glacial maps.

Quote from: smjjames
Will the liason and the king/queen be replaced by a successor in the new version?

I haven't cludged in a place-holder for that yet, and I'm not quite sure what's going to happen.  There's an entire dev_next item for it if I remember, because there are a lot of implications.

Quote from: Arkose
Will speardwarves who get a wounded foot or leg out on the battlefield be able to hobble around by using their spears as makeshift walking sticks, at least until they are able to hobble their way back to the fortress for a more purpose-built crutch?

They don't know how to do that right now.  It could be done.  I think maybe it should knock them to the ground if they try to use it as both a crutch and a weapon though, or at least have a chance for that.  The same goes for crutches, but it's a little less abusive.  They'd also have to be inferior to crutches in terms of the speed boost.

Quote from: TheDJ17
Will it be possible to get immgrant doctors?

I don't know if we got them automatically or not, but I'll check to see that it can happen.

Quote from: zagabar
Now when all bodyparts are arranged in tissue layers and that, will it be possible for the dwarves to... *shrug* ... have the beard cut off in battle?

The beard comes up in the combat routine, but I think it might skip trying to shorten it because it doesn't know how to play nice with the length variable yet.

Quote from: smjjames
is soap going to be available on embark or as a trade item to be requested?

There are some complications with the reaction products and getting it to recognize what needs to happen in the entities for them, but I'm hoping it'll be in for this time.

Quote from: B0013
Will the new infection system work in adventure mode?

Yeah, it's all going to be there.  It should be a miserable life.

Quote from: smjjames
Also, where are these notes by SirHoneyBadger as I want to look at them?

The following thread has much of the same stuff, though I don't think it is the exact same format.

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=30097.0

Quote from: Areyar
Does that mean rotting dwarves will emit miasma?

Yeah.

Quote from: Hoborobo234
Will they eventually rot to a skeleton/death?

The rot isn't progressive for zombies.  They are just generated in a state of decay.  Once I get to the dev_next curses, things like skeletons and zombies will either become linked into a single curse, or they can be separate things.  It should start making more internally consistent sense at that time.

Quote from: Mephansteras
Are we going to see things like cats cleaning themselves with there tongues at some point?

I guess we aren't so far from that, the next time I work on pet antics, now that I've opened the door with eyelids (though they work quite a bit differently).

Quote from: Leafsnail
Is the plan to just finish the chief physician thing so that healthcare (one of the biggest changes, in my opinion) can be crossed off the list?  Then continue to obliterate the remaining items in a downwards direction?

Well, that and the medical display are the things left there, yeah.  Once it is greened-out, I'm probably going to go straight down, but I'm going to defer to however I'm feeling at that time, which might be different.

Quote from: Dante
What happens if you add that [artiface use] tag to, say, a still, or dairy, or soapmakers' shop?
Will it force artifact booze? Huge intricately carved artifact cheese? Fantastic soap studded with spikes of bone?

In context, I was talking about the building materials for the building itself.  So, something like being able to use an artifact bucket in a workshop that has a bucket.  There's not much of a reason to do that now, although dwarves can admire furnaces and so on, I think, and this would be a bonus.

Quote from: Leafsnail
Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't losing an eyelid currently just cause a dwarf's eyes to gradually get dirty rather than causing agonising dryness?

Yeah, the reason that I brought it up is that it's silly the way it is now.  I was highlighting the limitations of the current eyelid system.

Quote from: Osmosis Jones
Toady has stated he will release before the end of the year, even if he has to cut some dev items.

I don't remember being so concrete about it, but it is a goal of mine.  Some other features are very likely to be put off, and I'd like to get it out by the end of the year, but it might not be possible.

Quote from: KillerClowns
Will it be possible to have these new workshops restricted by species?

If you are planning on having a multi-species fort, which is still broken, you'd have to use workshop profiles or something.  Overall, in the entity definition, you can say exactly which custom buildings and reactions they are allowed to use, and that is reflected in the fortress mode interface.

Quote from: CobaltKobold
Presently possible to make things in the style of rock/bone/wood-actions, that is, takes any of a subset of materials (rather than forgelike, picking your material exactly) and produces product of that material?

The custom workshop interfaces still just list the jobs without material selectors or extra helper buttons, but there are some flags you can put on reactions that help with things, so that you can request, say, any wood for a reagent and the product can use the exact material picked up by the dwarf for the product.  The reagents all have labels now, and you can tell a product to "GET_MATERIAL_FROM_REAGENT:B", for instance, and whatever item the dwarf picks up for reagent B will be used to determine the material of that product.

Quote from: Dwarfu
Custom workshops have to be rectangular, but What is the minimum layout a custom workshop requires?

You can make the workshop 1x1.  It might be possible to use no objects, but I'm not sure if that works, or even results in a big fat crash or other catastrophic failure.

Quote from: Sean Mirrsen
In spite of this, would it be possible to have an "uncancellable" task at a workshop? A task that, instead of being cancelled when its materials are not available, is shafted to the back of the queue? I realise some of the implications of this, and that you can already do something like this with the job manager, but being able to put a task "on hold" until its required components are available, so that it will automatically resume then, would be very useful.

I don't think I should do this kind of thing until I get to the overall manager order rewrites and so on.  If the uncancellable job comes up without anything to replace it, or several of them come up in series, it'll need to have some code for how long the job is suspended and so on, and that'll need to play nice with whatever other quotas and things come into play.

Quote from: Sean Mirrsen
Also, will there be completely no way to get rid of the standard workshops? Would it at least be possible to remap the keys so that the custom workshops can be built instead?

It can be done building by building for this release provided you don't care about the implications (ie, they'd still have access to certain products), but at least it would clear up interface clutter.  In that case, the keys would work properly.  That is, right now custom workshops can be assigned keys, but they shouldn't conflict with other keys that appear in the list of allowed buildings for that menu option (workshops, furnaces, etc.).

Quote from: Sean Mirrsen
Also also, how exactly will the new 'shops be buildable? Will they be just stuck at the end of the existing list, or maybe we might have categories that we can stick them into?

Right now a custom building can either be a furnace or a workshop.  There isn't really a difference there (as in the regular game), except that I think the furnace ones might have to be designed first.  Things like fuel and magma use can be applied to both.

Quote from: tfaal
does this mean that I could mod in a high priest noble with a squad of temple knights under his rule?

You could do that in name, but in dwarf mode you couldn't force the high priest to actually believe in a particular god or for their knights to share their beliefs.  For the world gen religious entities, they'd have the same religion properly.

Quote from: G-Flex
Are there any plans to add the use of alcohol as a sanitary agent?

It's in the SHB notes along with honey and some other stuff, and I think it should go in.  Maybe when I get to actual infections I can do that stuff correctly as well.

Quote from: smjjames
Can you give us an idea how the hospitals are set up now? Like is there a specific burrow type (which is most likely) or do we designate a hospital room from a bed or table or whatever?

Hospitals are done as an activity zone, and they have a special menu that lets you set equipment amounts, shows equipment amounts and tells you how many beds/benches/tables/boxes the hospital is currently controlling.

Quote from: smjjames
Hey, I don't know if anybody has thought of this yet, but with custom workshops having the potential to be as big as 30x30, what about multiple dwarves using the same workshop at the same time?

It would be difficult to code that in, especially for this release, but it's certainly a legitimate thing to consider.  If the overall workshop rewrite goes through, where many things are put a bit more under the same umbrella, it should be easier to do.

Quote from: smjjames
Oh yea, Toady, how are we going to be making the custom workshops, will there be a screen for this or like what? I'm sure a whole bunch of it will involve going into the raws themselves.

Yeah, the actual defining of custom workshop types is in the raws.  You build them from the workshop/furnace B menus.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2009, 10:09:00 pm by Toady One »
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Eduren

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #4917 on: September 22, 2009, 08:18:52 pm »

Always a pleasure to read your responses.

I told somebody I'd consider an xml dump of the legends for this release, and I'm going to do that, but I'm going to have to skip it if it looks time-consuming.

That would be awesome.
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Siru

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #4918 on: September 22, 2009, 08:52:20 pm »

What are the chances of natural hot springs appearing in the game at some point? And could there be something like Public Baths  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_bathing#Cultures_and_countries? They could also double as meeting places.
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Untelligent

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #4919 on: September 22, 2009, 08:56:30 pm »

Overall, in the entity definition, you can say exactly which custom buildings and reactions they are allowed to use, and that is reflected in the fortress mode interface.


This is AWESOMENESS. This sentence single-handedly destroyed the biggest snag in my plans for my upcoming total-conversion mod.

Lots of other awesomeness in that post, too. I wish I had a job so I could donate, but I don't so I can't. =(
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