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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items  (Read 3528608 times)

zchris13

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #4920 on: September 22, 2009, 08:58:37 pm »

Is it SPESH MARINES.

What are the chances of natural hot springs appearing in the game at some point? And could there be something like Public Baths  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_bathing#Cultures_and_countries? They could also double as meeting places.
I want hot springs.
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Dante

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #4921 on: September 22, 2009, 09:46:01 pm »

I've opened the door with eyelids

...nice choice of words there.

Far too many thoughts on all this, so spoiler'd.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Phew!

Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #4922 on: September 22, 2009, 10:06:06 pm »

Overall, in the entity definition, you can say exactly which custom buildings and reactions they are allowed to use, and that is reflected in the fortress mode interface.

This is AWESOMENESS. This sentence single-handedly destroyed the biggest snag in my plans for my upcoming total-conversion mod.

Haha, I was going to post about how that more than anything else will make total conversions practical.  Although this is a big factor too:

Quote from: CobaltKobold
Presently possible to make things in the style of rock/bone/wood-actions, that is, takes any of a subset of materials (rather than forgelike, picking your material exactly) and produces product of that material?

The custom workshop interfaces still just list the jobs without material selectors or extra helper buttons, but there are some flags you can but on reactions that help with things, so that you can request, say, any wood for a reagent and the product can use the exact material picked up by the dwarf for the product.  The reagents all have labels now, and you can tell a product to "GET_MATERIAL_FROM_REAGENT:B", for instance, and whatever item the dwarf picks up for reagent B will be used to determine the material of that product.

Awesome.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2009, 10:18:41 pm by Footkerchief »
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Christes

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #4923 on: September 22, 2009, 10:43:24 pm »

This is amazing.  Every release gets more and more amazing.  Remember how a while ago we thought of revamping the healthcare system as merely some distant fantasy?  Well, it will be here soon.

I'd better get of my ass and start donating, now that I'll be earning a paycheck and all.  Are there plans for a donation drive of some sort like there was last time?
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PTTG??

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #4924 on: September 22, 2009, 11:11:16 pm »

[REACTION:MELD]

I can see it now... a dwarf will collect four or five completely random objects and squashes them together in a "compressor" workshop, producing items such as a "Pine Felsite Cat Tallow Plump Helmet Blob"

Or... replace the current consolidated workshops with a new array of workshops... You might have an Anvil workshop, a Crucible workshop and a Whetstone Workshop. Then you could use the crucible to turn bars to sword blanks, then make dull swords on the anvil, then sharpen them on the whetstone.

And, an Oven workshop, a chopping Block workshop, and a cauldron workshop for cooking various foods. Or, multi-square but entirely passable workshops that can be made of valuable cloth for use as rugs. Or maybe dwarves like stone carpeting.
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qwert

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #4925 on: September 23, 2009, 01:13:20 am »

Quote from: Toady One
I was highlighting the limitations of the current eyelid system.

Seriously, in what other game is there not only an eyelid system, but one that is merely a placeholder for something more involved?
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Brown Moses

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #4926 on: September 23, 2009, 01:34:14 am »

Some questions about the new buildings, sorry if any were answered already:
1 : Can you set the buildings to require power?
2 : Can buildings require water in the same manner as some require
magma?

3 : Could a building produce and expel a gas or liquid, for example a
cloud of gunpowder from a gunpowder mill?

4 : Could buildings be set to operate without a dwarf present? For
example could you load up a building with raw materials and then after a
certain amount of time it would produce an item? .

5 : Can you create your own building weapons, like catapults and
ballista?


A few other random questions:
1 : If you could produce gunpowder would you be able to make it
flammable and explosive, and what would happen if a dwarf was carrying
ammo made out of it and he was set on fire for any reason? Exploding
dwarf?

2 : Could a gunpowder based weapon use seperate gunpowder and ammo, or
would it have to be combined for both to be used up with each shot?

3 : Could a weapon produce a cloud of smoke when it's fired?
4 : Could you create a thrown or projectile weapon that explodes on
impact?

5 : If you stored gunpowder in a barrel would it explode if heated?
6 : Could you mod animals to poo?

As you can probably tell I like the idea of using the new changes to
produce gunpowder.
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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #4927 on: September 23, 2009, 01:48:17 am »

Quote from: Siru
What are the chances of natural hot springs appearing in the game at some point? And could there be something like Public Baths  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_bathing#Cultures_and_countries? They could also double as meeting places.

I'm not sure how to assign a chance to something like that, but as we do overland features over time to complement the new underground, stuff like that will come up.

Quote from: Dante
This includes curses of undeath. Should land falling under the Death sphere be marked, simply, by having all animals turn undead? Or will there be other subtleties and more variation, such as vaguely related spheres (darkness, sickness, life) having a chance of involving undeath? Or will there be an overhaul of spheres and have something as straightforward as a Skeletal sphere, a Zombie sphere, a Lycanthropy sphere, etc?

I'm going to try to be careful to not add spheres that are too oriented toward something that might appear in whatever curse raws there end up being, unless there's something like a curse sphere that also takes an argument to specify it.  In a way the spheres aren't supposed to be in the raws, because they are something basic where the effects are going to be too weird/involved to do without some hardcoding.   It shouldn't be impossible to come up with subtle effects for things like death though.  Your aging process might just be enhanced or something, although having a sphere for aging or old age might not be unwarranted itself.

Quote from: Dante
On that note, will there be many more curses and will we be able to mod in our own? Such as mummified bodies, demonic possession, etc. It seems like this could well end up tied into general sicknesses.

Yeah, this is the idea.  "Skeleton" and "Zombie" as special flags will be gone, and all sorts of whatever will be in.  It ties in well to almost all of the game mechanics, really, because you can push it in whatever direction.  It's kind of like magic that way.

Quote from: Dante
Presumably this this means that custom workshops will never be claimed by moody dwarfs at all?

That's right.  Mood dwarves don't understand custom jobs/reactions right now.

Quote from: Dante
(Which would make sense, to avoid those crazy artifacts mentioned. Actually, how does the game currently choose what can be artifacted? If you mod in a weapon and a workshop that can make it, it can already be randomly chosen for a mood, right?)

If you mod in a weapon and a custom workshop that can make it, it won't work, because that involves a custom workshop.  If you have the standard forge, as things are currently, then it'll be allowed, at the forge.

Quote from: Dante
Wow, 1x1 custom workshops. That'll probably make quantum stockpiling a whole lot easier, actually. Unless the [CLUTTER] level is tied to the number of squares the workshop covers? I mean, a 50x50 workshop shouldn't clutter at the same rate as a 1x1 workshop making the same type of object.

It depends on what are in the tiles I guess.  There should probably be a clutter capacity parameter at some point, but that would only apply before the workshops are rethought so I might not bother with that.

Quote from: Dante
But the first thing you tend to think of is taking it to extremes. That is, at one end you could mod in an enormous General Purpose Workshop which requires a large number of materials and which can be used to do *all* the vanilla tasks.

I should point out again here that certain things aren't going to work, like crafts.  Certain conveniences like being able to choose the metal before the job in the forge are also not supported for custom workshops.

Quote from: Footkerchief
Quote from: me
The custom workshop interfaces still just list the jobs without material selectors or extra helper buttons, but there are some flags you can but on reactions that help with things, so that you can request, say, any wood for a reagent and the product can use the exact material picked up by the dwarf for the product.  The reagents all have labels now, and you can tell a product to "GET_MATERIAL_FROM_REAGENT:B", for instance, and whatever item the dwarf picks up for reagent B will be used to determine the material of that product.
Awesome.

There's another layer in between the reagent and product in this system which should be useful as well.  For instance, for tanning, which is now in the raws, instead of producing leather that is made out of the reagent's skin material, you need to have it made out of a new leather material, but the type of leather needs to depend on the skin material.  So for this one, we have "GET_MATERIAL_FROM_REAGENT:A:TAN_MAT" where TAN_MAT is the token for reaction information inside the material.  That is, the material definition has "[MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:TAN_MAT:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:LEATHER]".  This means that instead of making the new product out of skin, it searches for "TAN_MAT" and says "okay, I should use the skin's creature's leather definition instead."  It doesn't need to be a local creature material.  You could just as easily have tanning cow skin give you tigerman leather or an iron "tanned skin" item.  You'd do those with (in the mat def) [MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:TAN_MAT:CREATURE_MAT:TIGERMAN:LEATHER] and [MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:TAN_MAT:INORGANIC:IRON], respectively.  The leather materials (and soap, tallow etc.) are all defined inside the creature itself.

When I say that TAN_MAT is a token, I mean that it isn't hard-coded at all.  You could have a reaction that has:

[REAGENT:A:1:BAR:NONE:NONE:NONE][REACTION_CLASS:MY_WEIRD_SWORD_CLASS]
[PRODUCT:100:1:WEAPON:SWORD_SHORT:GET_MATERIAL_FROM_REAGENT:A:MY_WEIRD_SWORD_MAT]

and then over in all the material defs you want (inorganic, tallow, whatever you have modded to make bars):

[REACTION_CLASS:MY_WEIRD_SWORD_CLASS] <-- lets it know it can be used as a reagent in that reaction
[MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:MY_WEIRD_SWORD_MAT:<whatever you want as a material for that particular input>] <-- tells it what you want the output to be

Quote from: Brown Moses
1 : Can you set the buildings to require power?

Not yet.  It has been requested, and I'm not sure if we'll have a simple version or not.

Quote from: Brown Moses
2 : Can buildings require water in the same manner as some require
magma?

Require it not like power but just need it around?  There's nothing like that, though I might get around to having some of the weird restrictions current buildings have (like wells).

Quote from: Brown Moses
3 : Could a building produce and expel a gas or liquid, for example a
cloud of gunpowder from a gunpowder mill?

Nope.

Quote from: Brown Moses
4 : Could buildings be set to operate without a dwarf present? For
example could you load up a building with raw materials and then after a
certain amount of time it would produce an item? .

Nope.

Quote from: Brown Moses
5 : Can you create your own building weapons, like catapults and
ballista?

Nope.

Quote from: Brown Moses
1 : If you could produce gunpowder would you be able to make it
flammable and explosive, and what would happen if a dwarf was carrying
ammo made out of it and he was set on fire for any reason? Exploding
dwarf?

Flammable but not explosive.

Quote from: Brown Moses
2 : Could a gunpowder based weapon use seperate gunpowder and ammo, or
would it have to be combined for both to be used up with each shot?

Nope.

Quote from: Brown Moses
3 : Could a weapon produce a cloud of smoke when it's fired?

Nope.

Quote from: Brown Moses
4 : Could you create a thrown or projectile weapon that explodes on
impact?

Nope.

Quote from: Brown Moses
5 : If you stored gunpowder in a barrel would it explode if heated?

You could set something to boil but not explode.

Quote from: Brown Moses
6 : Could you mod animals to poo?

You could have them secrete poo on their skin from whatever, spit poo from wherever, breath gaseous poo in general or inject poo from wherever, but you couldn't tie it in to what they eat.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2009, 03:14:07 am by Toady One »
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chaoticag

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #4928 on: September 23, 2009, 02:11:08 am »

Just noticed that modders can finally have a seperate building to process pitchblend into coke. The zombie mod did it, bit it was the same place where you made the swords and stuff. Having it as a 32x32 building instead sounds better.

This was probably asked before but:
Since dwarves now sweat, does that mean that they will potentially leave a trail of sweat, or does it only attach itself to bodyparts like water does now?
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #4929 on: September 23, 2009, 02:39:44 am »

There's another layer in between the reagent and product in this system which should be useful as well.  For instance, for tanning, which is now in the raws, instead of producing leather that is made out of the reagent's skin material, you need to have it made out of a new leather material, but the type of leather needs to depend on the skin material.  So for this one, we have "GET_MATERIAL_FROM_REAGENT:A:TAN_MAT" where TAN_MAT is the token for reaction information inside the material.  That is, the material definition has "[MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:TAN_MAT:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:LEATHER]".  This means that instead of making the new product out of skin, it searches for "TAN_MAT" and says "okay, I should use the skin's creature's leather definition instead."  It doesn't need to be a local creature material.  You could just as easily have tanning cow skin give you tigerman leather or an iron "tanned skin" item.  You'd do those with (in the mat def) [MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:TAN_MAT:CREATURE_MAT:TIGERMAN:LEATHER] and [MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:TAN_MAT:INORGANIC:IRON], respectively.  The leather materials (and soap, tallow etc.) are all defined inside the creature itself.

When I say that TAN_MAT is a token, I mean that it isn't hard-coded at all.  You could have a reaction that has:

[REAGENT:A:1:BAR:NONE:NONE:NONE][REACTION_CLASS:MY_WEIRD_SWORD_CLASS]
[PRODUCT:100:1:WEAPON:SWORD_SHORT:GET_MATERIAL_FROM_REAGENT:A:MY_WEIRD_SWORD_MAT]

and then over in all the material defs you want (inorganic, tallow, whatever you have modded to make bars):

[REACTION_CLASS:MY_WEIRD_SWORD_CLASS] <-- let's it know it can be used as a reagent in that reaction
[MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:MY_WEIRD_SWORD_MAT:<whatever you want as a material for that particular input>] <-- tells it what you want the output to be

Okay, that MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT tag makes a lot more sense now.  Also, having reaction classes for all materials will be extremely helpful -- I'd already run up against the need for that while brainstorming mods, so I'm glad it made it in.  Thanks for the extra info.

Since dwarves now sweat, does that mean that they will potentially leave a trail of sweat, or does it only attach itself to bodyparts like water does now?

If by "sweat" you mean the "open-wound-infection-chance-enhancing grime" mentioned in the dev log, I don't think it'll actually drip off the body, even if it's implemented as a secretion, which I'm not sure of.  Although I suppose the grime secreted by their feet could work its way through their shoes (because the game still doesn't distinguish between the inside and outside of clothing, AFAIK) and make contact with the ground that way, so... maybe yes?  Basically I have no idea, but there's some food for thought!
« Last Edit: September 23, 2009, 03:06:03 am by Footkerchief »
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CobaltKobold

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #4930 on: September 23, 2009, 02:44:56 am »

Certain conveniences like being able to choose the metal before the job in the forge are also not supported for custom workshops.
Can't you sort of hack it in by making a "make iron pick" job require [METAL:IRON] (Or however it's writ) and just making one job per input material?
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #4931 on: September 23, 2009, 03:03:20 am »

Certain conveniences like being able to choose the metal before the job in the forge are also not supported for custom workshops.
Can't you sort of hack it in by making a "make iron pick" job require [METAL:IRON] (Or however it's writ) and just making one job per input material?

Oh yes, definitely -- you can even do that in the current version (I think it'd be INORGANIC:IRON in the new version).  It's not a great solution but it'll work.

Hmm, maybe at some point there could be a [JOB_FOR_EACH_MATERIAL] tag in reactions that converts the corresponding workshop task into a submenu that you can open to choose a material.  Although then you'd have to include the material in the task name to differentiate the choices...
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JoshuaFH

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #4932 on: September 23, 2009, 04:33:07 am »

I really should look at this thread more often, it's great fun.

There's a certain number of things I wonder will be in the future, I brought some of them up here:

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=42218.0

While that has a couple, I'm really only mostly interested in extreme weather effects. Tidal waves, earthquakes, hurricanes, typhoons, tornados, sinkholes, quicksand, whirlpools, deadly marshes, lightning, floods, flash floods, landslides, mudslides, avalanches, hail, volcanic eruptions, natural forest fires, seaside cliff-faces eroding, dust storms, sand storms, rivers drying up or overflowing, desertification, effects of a water table rising and falling due to drought or rain, and things like that.

I got a little carried away listing all those things, and I don't expect them all answered, I just want to know if weather is getting overhauled.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #4933 on: September 23, 2009, 04:43:37 am »

^^^ Weather overhaul is in the dev notes as a far future goal:

Quote
# TERRAIN/WEATHER/SWIMMING/FLYING/BOATS: Boats of some kind might go in early to make different regions more accessible, but you won't be able to be a pirate or an undersea civ for quite a while. Rivers freeze with daily temperatures instead of seasonal temperatures. Realize river and ocean squares when you visit them (forcing town layouts to adapt). Realize interesting canyons and so on in such areas. Track hurricanes and other major storm/disasters, in-game and during world gen. Thunderstorms with lightning strikes (with corresponding lighting effects) and hail. Levels of rainfall. Eating snow, making snowballs and picking up hail during and after hail storms. Tornados with wind flows that push items, projectiles and creatures. Proper eclipse modeling. Tides, deep oceans and pearl-diving, etc. More intricate interplay between cliff faces, inner rivers and outer rivers, using Z coord and waterfalls.

Honestly there's not much in the game that isn't expected to get overhauled or at least improved at some point.
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skaltum

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #4934 on: September 23, 2009, 07:12:47 am »


You could have them secrete poo on their skin from whatever, spit poo from wherever, breath gaseous poo in general or inject poo from wherever, but you couldn't tie it in to what they eat.

:P
 the goundhog spits a groundhog poo at your head
it strikes you in the face!
it is torn off by the force of the poo!
you have been struck down!
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I just realized, after adding the new body parts to the other races, that I have an entire squad of dwarves with a shield in each hand and swinging their axes with their penises. There's nightmare fuel for those goblins, in more ways than one.

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