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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items  (Read 3224455 times)

Lord Shonus

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11310 on: January 27, 2010, 08:49:54 am »

A hard material absorbs less force than an elastic one, meaning that more is transmitted to other objects in contact with it A blow from a hammer against steel plate, for example, transmits nearly all of the force behind the blow to the person wearing it,while adding a layer of good leather behind the plate (the plate is still sovereign over cutting or piercing attacks) allows much of the force to dissipate.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11311 on: January 27, 2010, 08:50:26 am »

Hm, as far as I understand, people are arguing that a more elastic armour would be better against blunt weapons than a hard one. Could someone explain to me why that would be the case, both under the new system in DF and in real life?

See the section "Minimizing Impact Force."  They mention the helpful example of crumple zones on a car.

Some links for reading about the importance of cloth armor (I can't vouch for this site but it seems pretty good, as sites for enthusiasts of medieval weapons go):
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spot_quilted.php
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=11131

Better source: "During the Middle Ages the gambeson underwent several changes but retained its original purpose - to absorb a blunt impact and even to resist piercing attacks.  Cloth, when well padded, is superior to metal when absorbing the shock of a blow..."
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 09:10:25 am by Footkerchief »
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Mel_Vixen

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11312 on: January 27, 2010, 08:52:28 am »

In reality a you have the problem that a hard plate can and will dent inwards if you hit it hard enought. What this does to your bality to breath schould be clear. So you need for fights with blunt weapons Armor that absorbs and transfers the ímpact to a big area while it still can  regather its own form. Thus you need padded amor/thick leather since its high elesticity.

edit: BTW Chainmail is good agaisnt cutting. Blunt and pierseweapons would work (more or less) fine on it.

edit2: Some Combat questions. If i drive a Spear right throught the upper leg of a Goblin so the spear is stuck in the ground and the goblins leg would this imobelize said goblin? could the goblin remove the Spear by itself? If i hit with said action the goblins nerves will he only loose the fealing in his upper leg or in the entire leg? And would the goblin get unconscious from the pain even if hes full with the Gobs equivalent of adrenalin?

Hmmm i wonder if the poison framework could be used to get a (even more) realistic creature-life/Bodymodell in terms of the effects of adrenalin etc.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 09:44:47 am by Heph »
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Shoku

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11313 on: January 27, 2010, 09:12:39 am »


Question about adamantine weapons.

If you wanted to make an adamantine hammer,  you could make a hollow adamantine shell and fill it with molten lead.  This would be a very effective weapon!  Will we be able to do anything like this in the foreseeable future?


I could have sworn this exact idea came up before, but I couldn't find much.
I had the same idea but didn't share it knowing a little about current weapon component behavior so maybe you're reading my mind.

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dreiche2

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11314 on: January 27, 2010, 09:15:27 am »

Well, the crumple zones have the additional benefit that energy is absorbed by deforming the material. I can see that prolonging the duration of impact is helpful, though.

Still, mail shouldn't help at all, as far as I can see.
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Calenth

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11315 on: January 27, 2010, 09:19:30 am »

Hm, as far as I understand, people are arguing that a more elastic armour would be better against blunt weapons than a hard one. Could someone explain to me why that would be the case, both under the new system in DF and in real life?

See the section "Minimizing Impact Force."  They mention the helpful example of crumple zones on a car.

Some links for reading about the importance of cloth armor (I can't vouch for this site but it seems pretty good, as sites for enthusiasts of medieval weapons go):
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spot_quilted.php
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=11131

Better source: "During the Middle Ages the gambeson underwent several changes but retained its original purpose - to absorb a blunt impact and even to resist piercing attacks.  Cloth, when well padded, is superior to metal when absorbing the shock of a blow..."

yeah, but looking through that site:

Quote
As mentioned above, one of the main purposes of quilted textile armour was to absorb the shock of blows and thus minimize blunt trauma. The need for such shock absorption dictated the thickness of the quilted defenses. With the advance of full plate armour after 1410, the metal plates used could withstand blows due to their rigidity and transfer the force over a much wider body area. Thus the use of plate largely removed the necessity for very thickly padded textile defenses, but still required a thinner garment to be worn.
(emphasis added)

So, "realistically," full plate should reduce bludgeoning damage also (probably based on the impact resistance of the metal & workmanship of the armor), in the same way that a ceramic plate in a bullet-proof vest spreads the impact of the bullet across the user's chest.

That said, there should still be *some* transfer of impact through the rigid plate, and some need for cloth or leather undergarments. Even if you're wearing a ceramic plate, if you get hit with a rifle round, you'll probably be somewhat bruised underneath the plate -- the ceramic plate just changes the "piercing" attack to a much, much weaker "bludgeoning" attack, spreading the impact force over the widest possible area.

Still, mail shouldn't help at all, as far as I can see.

Seems like mail shouldn't do much at all against maces, yeah, should definitely stop cutting attacks as long as the material's harder than the cutting weapon, and should convert piercing attacks into much weaker bludgeoning attacks.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 09:22:53 am by Calenth »
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Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11316 on: January 27, 2010, 09:28:13 am »

Goodness... the way people keep talking I am starting to seriously wonder what the point of Chainmail is.

Though... I have EXTREMELY contradictory information on it. (In one, Chainmail can stop arrows from piercing flesh. In another it cannot)
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11317 on: January 27, 2010, 09:32:04 am »

Though... I have EXTREMELY contradictory information on it. (In one, Chainmail can stop arrows from piercing flesh. In another it cannot)

Against arrows, it's much better than nothing.  It depends on the arrow, of course, and tons of other factors.  Don't listen to anyone who tells you it's black and white.

So, "realistically," full plate should reduce bludgeoning damage also (probably based on the impact resistance of the metal & workmanship of the armor), in the same way that a ceramic plate in a bullet-proof vest spreads the impact of the bullet across the user's chest.

Yeah, definitely.  The game does have a notion of contact area and pressure, but I don't know whether armor effectively changes the contact area or what.

Here's some quotes that touch on blunt damage and contact area and all that:

Spoiler: long (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 09:36:07 am by Footkerchief »
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Shoku

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11318 on: January 27, 2010, 09:32:44 am »

According to that goofy deadliest warrior show piercing weapons beat chainmail. Not sure how much force an arrow would need to get through but with my full expertise of having watched that one demonstration with a different weapon- seems plausible.
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Mel_Vixen

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11319 on: January 27, 2010, 09:33:46 am »

That depends on the arrow,the force behind the arrow, the mails material, the mesh-type and the size of the rings. Normaly with a stilet or some other fine stabbing weapon you get to the flashy parts because the force is concentrated on only one ring of the mesh wich gets in the process of the stabbing destroyed.
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Calenth

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11320 on: January 27, 2010, 09:34:39 am »

Goodness... the way people keep talking I am starting to seriously wonder what the point of Chainmail is.

Though... I have EXTREMELY contradictory information on it. (In one, Chainmail can stop arrows from piercing flesh. In another it cannot)

That's probably going to depend on the quality of the chainmail and the tightness of the rings. Big, loose links, all they'll do is stop cuts and spread the force of blows slightly (basically making whatever leather/cloth backing it's over, more effective) but piercing attacks will go through the links. Small, teeny-tiny links, of masterful skill, you're basically wearing a metal mesh, and attacks aren't going to pierce that any more than they're going to cut it.
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Calenth

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11321 on: January 27, 2010, 09:36:15 am »


Against arrows, it's much better than nothing.  It depends on the arrow, of course, and tons of other factors.  Don't listen to anyone who tells you it's black and white.

This brings up another really good question: are we ever going to be able to make arrows with different types of heads? Some historical bolts had "Crushing" heads, some had piercing, etc.
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Mel_Vixen

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11322 on: January 27, 2010, 09:40:28 am »

And some highpower X-bows had enought force to destroy the bolt completly so that balls/bullets (from metal/stone) were used.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11323 on: January 27, 2010, 09:44:47 am »

This brings up another really good question: are we ever going to be able to make arrows with different types of heads? Some historical bolts had "Crushing" heads, some had piercing, etc.

I believe you can mod them into the current version, although the next version will let you do so much more accurately.  The hypothetical item component system rears its head again here, to an extent.
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Bacu

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11324 on: January 27, 2010, 09:51:26 am »

No update today? :\
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