Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 15

Author Topic: Surgery/Medicine in DF  (Read 25103 times)

SirHoneyBadger

  • Bay Watcher
  • Beware those who would keep knowledge from you.
    • View Profile
Surgery/Medicine in DF
« on: January 22, 2009, 07:58:17 pm »

This is a thread to gather up thoughts/opinions, as well as research, on historical surgery (specifically), as well as general medicine, and their application in Dwarf Fortress. Hopefully, this will be useful to Toady, in developing surgery and medicine in DF, and it can also serve to gather information on the subject, and for us to discuss it.

This will ofcourse deal with pre 1400 AD surgery techniques, as well as traditional/holistic methods, and "basic" surgery techniques that our dwarfs could be expected to have access to.

I wrote this with the help of Wikipedia, and there's a lot that can be added to it, and refined, but it'll hopefully provide a good starting-point.

The three major obstacles to surgery, pre Industrial Revolution, according to my research, are: Bleeding, Pain, and Infection.

As an aside: I'll also mention Anaesthesia (the surgical use, as opposed to simple pain-relief), Shock, and Recovery, since they're pretty important considerations, although not insurmountable at DF technology levels.

The Surgeon, in ancient times, was a technician-more like a blacksmith or armourer-while the (diagnostic) Physician was the real deal, the main healer, and kind of on the same level as your Dungeon Master--a noble, but one who's actually very useful and important.

There'd likely be only one Physician per Fortress, because of the rarity of that kind of specialized knowledge, and they'd be highly respected members of the community, with a place at court, so making Physicians nobles makes sense to me, anyway.

Physicians might very well have a magical background/magical skill. This was common and even expected back then. They might also be involved in the priesthood.

Surgeons might have their own Guild, but again, they're just skilled labourers-important, valued ones, but no more than a good armourer, maybe even less-and remained so until more modern times.

Herbalists could also be an important group/skill, again under the Physicial, but with some healing knowledge, and the ability to fight pain, infection, and even bloodloss, through the application of herbs, bark, sap, whatever.

Historically, there tended to be enmity between doctors and the "wise women" (aka witches) who had extensive knowledge of healing herbs, but there's no reason that dwarf history should include the same separation. Ofcourse, herbalists would probably be a lot more common in human lands, and even moreso with the elves, ofcourse.

With demons in the world, there could be various spirits and demons of disease/unhealth, that might have an effect on medicine. Exorcisms and various shamanistic/cleansing practices, or otherwise, could be beneficial, or even required for success. Another argument for physicians to have magical knowledge.

Bone-setting was done, and done well.

Draining/lancing of abscesses was also performed, and might be required for the healing of certain infected wounds.

Dental surgery and eye surgery were also done, as was plastic surgery. I don't know whether or not eye surgery or most plastic surgery (with the possible exception of some sort of rhinoplasty, to repair/replace broken or missing noses) would be anything that would necessarily go well in the game, but the dental replacement of teeth with gold/gems might be very entertaining, and arguably "dwarfy" (or atleast gansta), and ofcourse the setting of jaws. 

Bloodletting was ofcourse a popular method, but it seems to have been based on a general misunderstanding of how the body worked, in ancient Greece, and was then continued on into medieval times, because of that misunderstanding. There's no real reason for it to deserve a place in the game, or atleast with the dwarfs-although ofcourse it could still find one, for entertainment purposes, or as pertains to the mystical/spiritual/demonic side of medicine, in a magical world.

Anaesthesia is as simple and as readily available as your local keg of booze. The stronger the better, ofcourse. Other anaesthetics include: cannabis, juniper, wolfsbane, and mandrake, so maybe some herbs could be used for this, or added to booze?

Cauterization of wounds was used (various methods for this, and useful in that it slows or stops the flow of blood, and helps curb infection--doesn't do anything for pain, though, except increase it mightily), as was suturing (both by use of needle (could be manufactured easily from thorn, which would have helped curb infection) and thread, as well as with various biting insects--ants, termites, and scarabs were all used, and since ants are in the game already, it would give them a greater purpose, if used in this way.)

Stone items really come into their own, where surgery is concerned: If you have a good supply of a lapidary rock, like flint or obsidian, it can be processed, with a lot of specialized skill, into an extremely fine edge. Archaeologists have found stone blades that had edges of only 1 micron thick.

To give you an idea of how sharp these blades can be made: Modern surgical scalpels have edges 5 microns thick, so these stone blades were fully 5 times sharper than modern surgical scalpels. 

Obsidian scalpels continue to be used today, for eye surgery. Obsidian, I think, also has some antibacterial properties.

Trepanning was very big in the stone age. It was apparently prescribed for various ailments we recognise in modern times: epilepsy, migraines, and mental disorders, but from what I can tell, there was also a lot of spirituality tied in here. People could be possessed by spirits (who would then give them ailments, as above. The spirit/spirits would make their home in the victim's skull), and then, by trepanning, an opening was made for the possessive/harmful spirit to be released. Neolithic trepanning was widespread, and actually had an excellent survival rate, even compared with modern brain surgery, going by archaeological evidence.

So, if an insane/possessed dwarf could be captured, rather than killed, trepanning might be a solution to their problem. And more could be done with the "spirits invading/possessing dwarfs and living in their skulls" idea, if desired. 

Bloodloss could be combatted with two basic methods, before 1400: Cauterization, and Ligatures (tieing off the bloodvessel). Some herbs might (and did) reduce bleeding/improve clotting, so this is also a possibility.

Pain: One thing to consider about pain-aside from anaesthesia-is muscle relaxers. Curare is a muscle relaxer-also an amazingly potent poison-so it might be possible to collect useful venoms or other poisonous materials (the right ones), and administer a small enough dose that it helps, rather than harms, the patient.

Infection could be fought with several methods: Salt is effective, but destructive. Honey was used by the Egyptians, and has antiseptic and antibacterial properties. Certain herbs could be used, and ofcourse alchohol, which could additionally be boiled, rendering it more painful/destructive, but also more effective.

Maggots would absolutely be a great technique for dwarfs to use. Dwarfs might additionally use spider-silk gauze for the binding of wounds, which might have additional infection-fighting properties.

Regardless, though, infection could (and should) be a devastating problem/challenge for our dwarfs, and might be even more dangerous in a Cursed/Haunted locale.

If the mystical element of medicine is explored, badly infected/diseased dwarfs might even turn into demon possessed zombies.

Areas might also have local plants or other materials, unavailable elsewhere, which could be greatly medically useful, either the cure for a specific disease, a plant that is especially effective against bloodloss, or helps with pain, etc. These could perhaps be discovered by skilled herbalists, and might not only help your fortress, but become an important trade-item.

In addition to the Physician, the Surgeon, and the Herbalist, Metalcrafters would be useful for manufacturing various tools-brass, for instance, has natural antibacterial properties, so it may find a greater role in medicine-and also, with the help of the Mechanic and the Armourer, could design and create prostheses. Stonecrafters could, as mentioned, make especially fine surgical blades, Cooks (with the aid of the Herbalist) and Brewers (for stronger alchohol) could lend their skills and knowledge to the healing arts, and Butchers/Dissectors would ofcourse develope a wealth of experience and knowledge by practicing their trades.

Medicine would not only tie in to healing, but could also serve as a basis to build Necromancy magic on, when the Magic Arc gets here.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are a (hopefully useful) links, for the sake of convenience, so that everyone can have access to some of the same resources (that way, if arguments do occur over the veracity of a particular bit of information, it can be compared fairly easily to public opinion and original-somewhat, anyway- sources.):

The Asclepion (a site devoted to ancient medicine):
http://www.indiana.edu/~ancmed/intro.HTM

The History of Medicine (a website):
http://resources.schoolscience.co.uk/abpi/history/index.html

A listing of medical history wiki-links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:History_of_medicine

And a list of hopefully useful wiki-links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_surgery

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_medicine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materia_Medica

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicine_in_ancient_Rome

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicine_in_ancient_Greece

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_community_of_ancient_Rome

Finally, this is a really good ebook on the subject (from Project Gutenberg), titled 'Outlines of Greek and Roman Medicine' by James Sands Elliott:

http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=329014

I'm concentrating on Greek and Roman medicine right now, because they're the pretty much the basis for Western medieval medicine, but I'll try to add sources for India, China, Egypt, Arabia, and others, as I have time.

If anyone else comes across good sources on the subject, please post them in the thread, and I'll check it out.

Articles done by me (incase anyone is interested):
------------------------------------------------------------
(***WARNING***, Articles by me, and by the Volunteers often contain mature subject matter. If you can't deal with that, then don't open the spoiler. If you do, and you're offended, that's your problem.)

Can be found on Page 11/12

Volunteer Submissions:
------------------------------------------------------------
When I run out of space on the OP, these can also be found on Page 11.

Here are the first completed volunteer projects (not added in order of submission, by the way, due to my mediochre organizational skills, and limited time.)

Submitted by Slitherrr:
(***WARNING***, Articles by me, and by the Volunteers often contain mature subject matter. If you can't deal with that, then don't open the spoiler. If you do, and you're offended, that's your problem.)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So far, 6 people have volunteered to help. That's awesome! By the way, if you've volunteered, and you'd like to be listed on the OP, just contact me, and I'll gladly make a list of volunteers.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2009, 06:19:27 pm by SirHoneyBadger »
Logged
For they would be your masters.

Neonivek

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2009, 08:10:11 pm »

Well Maggots and Leeches are amazing and even today their medical uses can't yet be replicated. Though they are still considered so disgusting that no one would ever use them.

Writing everything Leeches can do is pointless... lets just say that Leeches can do ANYTHING!!! Your arm fell off and was just reattached? Leeches! You have a headache? Leeches! High blood pressure? I think Leeches can help that too!
-Mind you... that... I don't think people at this time period could realistically reattack your hand... but I have no idea... I mean afterall.. a Greek/Roman Doctor did manage to bring the dead back to life by giving medical treatment to their souls.

Quote
Bloodletting was ofcourse a popular method, but it seems to have been based on a general misunderstanding of how the body worked, in ancient Greece, and was then continued on into medieval times, because of that misunderstanding

Bloodletting like Laxatives (Interestingly people tend to forget that giving someone Laxatives was used often for the same reasons people practiced Bloodletting) were used innapropriately... but like Laxatives they both could be used properly.

Unfortunately... despite I can't remember what Bloodletting is actually useful for. *Checks internet* Ahhh... what do you know... a few diseases respond rather well to Bloodletting and low scale bloodletting (called by another name). So Bloodletting wasn't all Snakeoil.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2009, 08:24:22 pm by Neonivek »
Logged

SirHoneyBadger

  • Bay Watcher
  • Beware those who would keep knowledge from you.
    • View Profile
Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2009, 09:04:04 pm »

HMMM...well, ok, there might be some medical uses for both leeches and bloodletting, I won't debate that. I do know that leech "saliva" contains powerful anti-coagulants, as well as a powerful pain reliever, so it could certainly be true. And the idea, frankly, adds to the theme.

Not that I think leeches should become a panacea, but certainly, having them be medically useful, in the game, could be a lot of fun.

I was actually considering the idea that the Leechmen humanoids would be the most skilled doctors in the game (how's that for a theme?), and could then be employed by your dwarfs in some fashion.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2009, 09:09:25 pm by SirHoneyBadger »
Logged
For they would be your masters.

Hugna

  • Bay Watcher
  • Till the Earth!
    • View Profile
Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2009, 09:24:17 pm »

Getting drunk is another way to lose pain/knock someone out. In a flash game i played (and beat) named Dark Cut (or was it Dark Cut 2...), i had to make sure my victims fully drunk to keep them from feeling too much pain, so i can perform surgery. Sure it was really gorey, but it shown a medivalish surgery. Like the first level you have to get an arrow out of someones leg, second one you get rid of boils, etc. The point of all this was, alchohol helps with surgery if you have nothing else. Too bad Dwarves feel sober with it instead of drunk. Hopefully when/if Toady decides to add this, he could make it so when Human Towns are available, they would prefer water-only, but rarely drink alchohol (unless they're addicted).

Yeah, i think it would be nice to have surgery, after all, i'm sure in their time, they had stuff to keep people healthy. Hell, most people would normally call doctoring a witch thing in that time i think. But then again, with us being able to make years way past 2000, i see nothing wrong with adding stuff that.... would bloat the game up a bit to make it probably more fun... who knows, having doctors would probably make people lose lesser than usual, since it may involve getting rid of things stuck in you. Too bad a shame there wouldn't be a way to regain blood...... or would there...

But whats this with Leeches? Aren't they supposed to be dangerous?
Logged

Neonivek

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2009, 09:32:37 pm »

Quote
"But whats this with Leeches? Aren't they supposed to be dangerous?"

Leeches were used during the same time as Bloodletting so they were often used innapropriately as we now know in modern times.

However Leeches properly done and properly removed are rather safe. Removing leeches improperly is a good way to catch a disease and die... UNFORTUNATELY even today many people are confused with how exactly to remove a leech (Salt, Alcohol, Fire, and ripping it off are all innapropriate)

That and Leeches are often kept in solutions that are rather dangerous as well. Getting an Ameoba infection from the opening the Leech.

Also Leeches do leave open sores (I think that is the term) on your person... which can become infected.

Those are how Leeches can be dangerous... However if you can get past that... Leeches are even used today in real life!

Quote
Getting drunk is another way to lose pain/knock someone out

I think that game exagerated quite a bit... While Alcohol was used sometimes... I believe getting someone drunk to the point of passing out is a good way of killing them.. and that it was recognised at the time.

Of course the only evidence I can pose to support this was the many kinds of proceedures that needed to be done without alcohol. THAT and the possibility that Alcohol and Surgery doesn't mix.

Then again it may have not represented genuin medical knowledge but rather "Everyman" medicine. (I mean afterall... it wasn't that far from the time when "Mutton" was considered medicine... or when people intentionally malnurished children so that they would be without energy)
« Last Edit: January 22, 2009, 09:38:30 pm by Neonivek »
Logged

Felblood

  • Bay Watcher
  • No, you don't.
    • View Profile
Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2009, 09:47:25 pm »

A leech lives by draining blood from larger creatures, get enough of them on you and you can die of blood loss. Their saliva dulls pain and stops blood from clotting, which has a lot of medical uses, but like most medicines too much can be quite fatal.

Perhaps lots of poisons can also be medicines, in the DF world, eventually.

Marcus Luttrel reported being given raw opium paste for the pain of having shrapnel picked out of his leg (Here, rub a pinch of this green stuff on your gums.), in the high county of Afghanistan, when he was taken in by the local tribesmen. He described the morphine he was given at more modern facilities, after being rescued, as weak by comparison.

Performing surgery on a conscious patent, after doping him up on mashed-up plant matter? Sounds like the proper dwarven way to remove lodged arrows to me.
Logged
The path through the wilderness is rarely direct. Reaching the destination is useless,
if you don't learn the lessons of the dessert.
--but you do have to keep walking.

Tack

  • Bay Watcher
  • Giving nothing to a community who gave me so much.
    • View Profile
Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2009, 10:41:10 pm »

... leeches are the god of medicine. They are not dangerous, they have no malaria or ross rvr fever. They were origionally used during poison and infection therapy, drawing "the bad blood out", the leeches would then be removed via salt, to prevent regurgitation of blood.
Logged
Sentience, Endurance, and Thumbs: The Trifector of a Superpredator.
Yeah, he's a banned spammer. Normally we'd delete this thread too, but people were having too much fun with it by the time we got here.

Mel_Vixen

  • Bay Watcher
  • Hobby: accidently thread derailment
    • View Profile
Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2009, 10:47:41 pm »

You shouldnt reuse Leeches thought. Only fresh and healthy ones should be used for sugery. Same goes for maggots.
Logged
[sarcasm] You know what? I love grammar Nazis! They give me that warm and fuzzy feeling. I am so ashamed of my bad english and that my first language is German. [/sarcasm]

Proud to be a Furry.

Neonivek

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2009, 10:50:55 pm »

You shouldnt reuse Leeches thought. Only fresh and healthy ones should be used for sugery. Same goes for maggots.

Can you REALLY reuse Maggots? I didn't realise they could last so long.
Logged

Felblood

  • Bay Watcher
  • No, you don't.
    • View Profile
Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2009, 11:01:19 pm »

An article I was reading recently (Wikipedia, I think) indicates that it actually takes several treatments to clean a sizable wound, because the maggots eat their fill of necrotic flesh and crawl off to pupate into flies. Whether the, clearly longer lived, purring maggots would be affected like that is up for debate.
Logged
The path through the wilderness is rarely direct. Reaching the destination is useless,
if you don't learn the lessons of the dessert.
--but you do have to keep walking.

Tack

  • Bay Watcher
  • Giving nothing to a community who gave me so much.
    • View Profile
Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2009, 11:05:38 pm »

i think it should simply be that there is a certain thing that cures a certain thing. i.e. snakeman venom cures most poisons (the doctor makes a deriving antivenom). Therefore when the patient goes to the barracks/hospital whatever, the doctor will have a text, the same as strange mood, saying this.
Logged
Sentience, Endurance, and Thumbs: The Trifector of a Superpredator.
Yeah, he's a banned spammer. Normally we'd delete this thread too, but people were having too much fun with it by the time we got here.

Mel_Vixen

  • Bay Watcher
  • Hobby: accidently thread derailment
    • View Profile
Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2009, 11:10:17 pm »

The maggots of the goldfly (Lucilia sericata) are maggots for 2-6 days until they change to the puppet-state.

edit:

Er well modern Antivenome are grown in corpo meaning in the blood of certain Mammals like Horses, bunnys etc. that blood gets then cleaned and filtered until you have the antivenom. This is far beyond Ancient Tech.

Historical poison treatments (and i am no expert here) would evolve around getting the wound cleaned out, leeches and certain plants that support the abiltys of the liver and the kidneys to clean the the blood. Also plants and substances as haemostatica or anti-haemostatica.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2009, 11:26:31 pm by Heph »
Logged
[sarcasm] You know what? I love grammar Nazis! They give me that warm and fuzzy feeling. I am so ashamed of my bad english and that my first language is German. [/sarcasm]

Proud to be a Furry.

Neonivek

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2009, 11:12:44 pm »

The maggots of the goldfly (Lucilia sericata) are maggots for 2-6 days until they change to the puppet-state.

Well I don't think we have to worry about marionette poisoning
Logged

Felblood

  • Bay Watcher
  • No, you don't.
    • View Profile
Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2009, 11:25:41 pm »

--but are goldflies one of the species that only eats necrotic flesh, or are they going to do as much harm as good?

Not that it matters because Toady can just create a species of maggots that is both non-harmful and long lasting.
Logged
The path through the wilderness is rarely direct. Reaching the destination is useless,
if you don't learn the lessons of the dessert.
--but you do have to keep walking.

Mel_Vixen

  • Bay Watcher
  • Hobby: accidently thread derailment
    • View Profile
Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2009, 11:28:26 pm »

Lucilia sericata are only Nekrophagic (eat dead flesh) and produce even an antibacterial extract which is helpful cause it cleans the wound. This Extract doesnt work on some Bacterias like Streptococs so thats why you never schould use the same maggots or theyr offspring at 2 different people.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2009, 11:32:19 pm by Heph »
Logged
[sarcasm] You know what? I love grammar Nazis! They give me that warm and fuzzy feeling. I am so ashamed of my bad english and that my first language is German. [/sarcasm]

Proud to be a Furry.
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 15