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Author Topic: Molds and other tools in metalcrafting  (Read 5862 times)

Tamren

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Molds and other tools in metalcrafting
« on: May 16, 2007, 08:39:00 pm »

The thread on anvils got me thinking, an anvil and a hammer is hardly the only tool at a smiths disposal.

Large objects and items too detailed to hammer into shape must be cast. Casting needs a mold. Question is what do we make them out of?

Stone molds are the most convenient but are quite hard to fashion. Stone is not an easy material to form into complex shapes.

Clay molds would work for some items but they are not durable. They also have to be baked to harden them, this would require a whole new tradeskill for pottery but would give the kiln some extra use.

Metal molds might work but you would have to coat or line it with something to prevent sticking.

Sand molding is detailed but very complicated and only works once.

Plaster molding is probably the best but it is not very efficient with very large castings. Not sure where dwarves would get plaster and what its made of either.

In all cases you need a form to base the mold off of, this could be made from pretty much anything, wood would work, metal as well. For truly detailed molds you would probably need wax and use lost-wax casting. Basically you make a wax model, cover it in plaster and melt the wax out leaving a hollow shell.

Molds would be used for large solid objects, an anvil could be hammered into shape, but it would take a ludicrous amount of fuel to heat up a chunk of metal that size multiple times.

Objects like rings and other jewlery could use small reusable molds. Larger moulds Would be added to the tools at a forge or used up after one cast.

The absence of an anvil should not be the end of the world. As it is now if the economy has not started by the time you lose the anvil you can never forge metal again because coins are required and only the forge can make them.

Making coins is actually pretty easy. The modern way is punching blanks out of sheet metal and stamping them on both sides with tons of pressure.

Since these are dwarves with medieval tech, the method would be less complex. A punch and die would be used, a small amount of soft metal put into it and a tap from a hammer would form the finished coin. Clip off the excess metal, melt it down and repeat.

They could also be cast, which would take far less time in a proper mold.

Coins can also be forged on an anvil, but since not as much force is involved compared to hammering a sword into shape, the anvil could be replaced by anything solid enough. Perhaps even a tree trunk.

[ May 17, 2007: Message edited by: Tamren ]

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Draco18s

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Re: Molds and other tools in metalcrafting
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2007, 08:59:00 am »

I want my dwarves to make money out of leaves.
<..<
*Reference to the book How Things Work and their section on printing paper money*
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Exasperation

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Re: Molds and other tools in metalcrafting
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2007, 02:16:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Draco18s:
<STRONG>I want my dwarves to make money out of leaves.
<..<
*Reference to the book How Things Work and their section on printing paper money*</STRONG>

The problem with that is all the dwarves dying in elephant-powered printing press accidents.
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Tamren

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Re: Molds and other tools in metalcrafting
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2007, 09:05:00 pm »

tapping animal power would be so neat  :D

Elephant running wheels as power is probably a bad idea though... there is no way to put brakes on it.

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Toady One

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Re: Molds and other tools in metalcrafting
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2007, 11:24:00 pm »

Wikipedia says plaster is made using gypsum, which is fortunate since I added common gypsum and the three varieties (alabaster, satinspar, and selenite) recently.

I'm all for molds.  Lots of tools and things and stuff, as long as it doesn't take a million years to get started on anything.

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Peristarkawan

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Re: Molds and other tools in metalcrafting
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2007, 11:59:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Draco18s:
<STRONG>I want my dwarves to make money out of leaves.
<..<
*Reference to the book How Things Work and their section on printing paper money*</STRONG>

Heh, when I read it I thought it was a reference to The Restaurant at the End of the Universe.   :D

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Captain Mayday

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Re: Molds and other tools in metalcrafting
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2007, 01:29:00 am »

So did I. All the dwarves would become fabulously rich.
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Tamren

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Re: Molds and other tools in metalcrafting
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2007, 02:05:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Toady One:
<STRONG>I'm all for molds.  Lots of tools and things and stuff, as long as it doesn't take a million years to get started on anything.</STRONG>

Ill type it out again, this time with more detail.

Hmm, well what if molds were simply a quicker and more convenient method of producion for only some items?

Coins for example, forging 500 coins with a hammer IS doable. You simply hammer each blank into shape. Or use a coin punch to shape both sides of the blank at once and clip off the extra.

But pouring molten metal into a mold with 500 coin shaped spaces then stamping them cold with whatever symbols (date, rulers face ect) would take far less time.

Coins do not *need* to be perfect so mass production is okay, although they need to have the same amount of metal in them to ensure value.

The thing is though, when using a mold, the mold itself greatly affects the quality of the finished piece for good or bad. But then again, a masterwork mold for a statue will go far towards helping the statue be a masterwork also.

So in practice there really is no bottleneck. All the common items and furniture can be made by forging.

A mold will speed the process, but is not needed. A mold will also add some value to items produced with it if it has a good enough quality. A bad mold will lead to more work needed by the smith, but it is still much faster.

A masterwork mold used to make a platinum statue will make a very valuable piece of art  :) )

Sand:
Sand molds are fickle. They can store a lot of detail in them. All you need to make one is a form, a non-wood bin and some special sand.

Im not sure what kind of sand they use, regular sand would just turn to glass upon contact with molten metal. But anyway, you would need a couple bags of the improved sand and the bin. You also need a form which is explained later.

When you make a mold, you combine the bin, form and sand together. When you use the mold it is effectively broken. The bin can be reused, but some sand is lost. In practice if the mold requires more then one bag of sand then one bags worth of sand is used up in the casting process.

Sand molds are second only to plaster molds, but unlike plaster they can be used for very large items.

Plaster:
Plaster molds are the very best in terms of adding quality. But they are fragile and can only be used for relatively small items. Im not sure who whould MAKE the plaster but i suppose it would start with gypsum and finish as a bag of plaster ready to be used. Im not sure if you need to bake plaster in a kiln, but that would be an easy extra step.

Anyhow, bin + plaster + form = mold, just like sand. Plaster molds are good for coinage, jewlery and other items.

Metal molds:
Im not sure if these would even work. A pure metal mold would be hard to take apart and would probably stick to glass or metal unless you grease or line it with something. Anyhow they are not really needed here.

Make sense? now for forms.

Forms are the model with which you base the molds off of. They are not needed for stone molds because those are carved. Clay molds can be made without forms but a good form will add some quality. Sand and plaster molds depend entirely on the form.

Forms can be made of pretty much anything solid. Materials that can hold more detail are better. Stone is quick but rough. Glass is a bit better, same with wood. Metal is probably the best.

Forms are reusable and pretty much never break, but like all tools you will want to replace them regularily with improved versions.

There is one last option for forms that only works with plaster molds. Lost wax casting was created quite a long time ago, most often used for bronze as far as i know.

Im not sure where the dwarves would get wax and who would shape it. Anyway a good wax form makes a great plaster mold. The wax is carved into a form, the form makes the mold and is melted out of the finished mold using the kiln. The wax is then gathered and can be used again.

hmm.... did i forget anything?

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Capntastic

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Re: Molds and other tools in metalcrafting
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2007, 02:38:00 am »

I think this would only be viable if it were automated, to a degree.   Like, if you set to make something requiring a plaster cast, that is set to be made first automatically.  Otherwise you'll have to remember an extra several steps just to build things.

Furthermore, once the tools are made, there'd need to be a way to keep track of them.  I can see there being different 'sheds' and stuff for tools of different types.

Really, though, so long as things don't get silly (To build a chair you need to build more nails for your carpenter which means you need a forge which requires bricks, which requires clay...) I'm cool with it.   I'd love to see more useful objects.

The more I think on it, the more I like the idea of toolsheds.  The only problem I can think of is how they'd work once personal posessions spring up (which makes other tools a bit finicky).  Surely you wouldn't want your rival using your horseshoe mold.

Also, quality levels and stuff could either be boosted or hindered by molds, which is neat, but also annoying since you'd probably have to specifically opt to make a new, better mold for something.

Overall, it could add a lot complexity to the game, both good and bad.  More goodies is neat, though, since there'd be more big choices than "One axe or two" and instead "Ropereed fishing nets or willow poles" and "Cheap flint carving tools or really flash iron ones".

I sorta left this window open while pondering things, so, uh, yeah.

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Tamren

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Re: Molds and other tools in metalcrafting
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2007, 09:55:00 am »

hmm, well a legendary dwarf could still make masterpieces with nothing but a good hammer.

Thats the whole point of legendary really.

Not sure how to keep track of tools. Have tool stockpiles and tool racks or something?

As mentioned in my other thread, molds and other items would be swapped out whenever you want using a menu. The menu works just like picking components for a building, only you go to the item and select it.

If you make a change, the item you chose is moved to the workshop and the previous one if any is taken to a stockpile.

Each workshop would have different equipment so you would probably need a screen that looks something like this:
Anvil-Yes
Molds:
ring:no
Amulet:yes
Barrel: yes

and so on. With the modular workshop idea i had, molds would also take up room and push the workshop further towards cluttered. So having every single one at one shop would be a disadvantage.

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Draco18s

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Re: Molds and other tools in metalcrafting
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2007, 09:57:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Peristarkawan:
<STRONG>Heh, when I read it I thought it was a reference to The Restaurant at the End of the Universe.    :D</STRONG>

Despite being a H2G2 buff, I'm not entirely sure I know the reference possible here.

quote:
Originally posted by Exasperation:
<STRONG>
The problem with that is all the dwarves dying in elephant-powered printing press accidents.</STRONG>

Such a shame, really.

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