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Author Topic: Volume and Mass  (Read 37649 times)

CapnMikey

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Re: Volume and Mass
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2010, 12:43:53 am »

The problem is that sometimes you want to keep track of multiple objects. For instance, you can't really interpret an "earring" as a "pile of earrings" when only one dwarf can wear it on only one ear, and this will become more and more true as unique identities for items become more important (ownership, unique properties of items, magical items, people becoming attached to and recognizing them, etc.). For something like seeds, it can matter a bit less, but still might matter (what if you want to leave a trail of seeds behind you in the wilderness to mark your path?).

Ah, you are right, I was thinking of earrings as trade goods only!  Let me reread this thread more closely I think my brain went on a tangent and missed the point XD
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Volume and Mass
« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2010, 12:47:55 am »

Hey NW_Kohaku, I like your suggestions (this thread and others).  I think you and I have similar ideas of fun. 

I have thought about this before, and my biggest sticking point was that realistic distance makes the unrealistic time much more apparent.  We could actually say, okay, a dwarf walks 200m in one season - what?  I would lean towards revamping time, so it passes at a realistic speed, but that leads to a whole host of other problems, as I'm sure you can imagine.  Do you think it would be okay to have realistic mass/volume/distance, but highly gamey time?

Time will be strange no matter what we do.  There's no way that this game could be modeled in anything approaching real-time without making the average game not last past the first Summer before most people got bored.  Besides that, there's the difference in time scale between Adventurer and Fortress mode. 

Space can be modeled with consistancy, Time cannot.  That's all there is to it.

Even without space being consistantly modeled, time is abstracted... dwarves eat only 8 times a year, for example.  Toady has stated he has no interest in making that more frequent.

Also, how much of the change is just semantics?  I became happier when I started thinking of "1 granite earring" as "1 (freaking huge pile of) granite earring(s)", and "1 seed" as "1 (big ole sack of) seeds".  Like, if a block made 100 earrings, their value would have to scaled down, or else they become a super-tradegood.  Scaled down by, say 100 - then what exactly does the change achieve?

Also, how much of the change is just semantics?  I became happier when I started thinking of "1 granite earring" as "1 (freaking huge pile of) granite earring(s)", and "1 seed" as "1 (big ole sack of) seeds".  Like, if a block made 100 earrings, their value would have to scaled down, or else they become a super-tradegood.  Scaled down by, say 100 - then what exactly does the change achieve?

The problem is that sometimes you want to keep track of multiple objects. For instance, you can't really interpret an "earring" as a "pile of earrings" when only one dwarf can wear it on only one ear, and this will become more and more true as unique identities for items become more important (ownership, unique properties of items, magical items, people becoming attached to and recognizing them, etc.). For something like seeds, it can matter a bit less, but still might matter (what if you want to leave a trail of seeds behind you in the wilderness to mark your path?).

Actually, I see the problem he's trying to get at, and it's something different.  Making 100 granite earrings from a single large block of granite isn't much of a problem, as granite is so common as to be virtually worthless, and the value of a granite earring is almost entirely based on the simple amount of labor put on the craft.  The problem is when that material is not granite, but something much more rare and valuable, like platinum.  If I can make many more base value 10 jewelry out of a single piece of platinum ore than I could make base value 10 furniture or other, larger objects.  If earrings sell for the same price per unit as instruments or tables, but I can make 10 times as many earrings as instruments or 100 times as many earrings as tables from a single piece of platinum, then small, lightweight jewelry would be the most efficient trade good for rarer raw materials, the way that mugs are now often good trade goods because they come in threes.

The thing is, however, when you really consider it, making jewelry out of rare metals be more valuable overall than making tables out of the material might just make a little bit of sense. 

Also, the material that a product is made of does not affect its overall volume, only the object in question does, which means that more massive objects, if they should be on par with other trade goods, should simply have their base values altered to reflect the difference in material that are in them.  (So scepters might have a higher base value than earrings.)
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CapnMikey

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Re: Volume and Mass
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2010, 01:19:48 am »

Ah, I think I'm getting it.  It was a bit tough, as a lot of the minutiae in this thread made my eyes glaze over (don't get me wrong, I love that stuff, but it's a different headspace than gameplay!)  This paragraph aided me greatly in summing the idea up:

OK, so then, if we want to make items out of units less than one log, we then have to make an entirely seperate kind of wood material, so that when a dwarf chops down a tree, it makes one log, but we can then split it into the 20 different wood items we need to have a little bit more leeway in how much material is used in a single given reaction, like making a barrel or other furniture, wheras I'd need some entirely seperate system for reducing wood to coal based on mass instead of volume, since woods have different densities.  That's not even counting stone, where it probably won't be raw-moddable how uncut stone will be used in constructions, anyway.

So then, instead of taking a platinum bar to the workshop, assigning one task, and BANG ending up with 100 earrings in the time it takes to make a sword, you would make one (or a few) earrings, and have 98% (or whatever) of a platinum block left, yes?

I also like the idea that some tasks are volume-based, while others are mass-based - now I understand why you're talking about density!  That would be interesting.  I can see myself moving the densest wood to my wood furnace, since it gives me the most bang for my buck.

Relatively Minor Gripes!

1.  Fractional remainders was brought up, and your solution would work if there was just "stone", but how would it work with the buttload of varieties?  Supposing you had 90kg remainders of 30 different types of stone (so they couldn't stack), and needed 100kg for an item?  I realize this isn't terribly likely, since you generally have a large supply of a few varieties.

2.  ARGH SO CLOSE.  Like you have 196kg of gold, but need 200kg to make that statue.  This is more about player expectations, because currently you can have 2 bars instead of the 3 you need, it just seems more frustrating being out 2% than 1/3.  I'd be thinking, "Just make it a LITTLE shorter!"  That's a relatively minor gripe.

Overall I think this is a cool idea!  I am curious what you think about those gripes, though.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Volume and Mass
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2010, 01:32:24 am »

Relatively Minor Gripes!

1.  Fractional remainders was brought up, and your solution would work if there was just "stone", but how would it work with the buttload of varieties?  Supposing you had 90kg remainders of 30 different types of stone (so they couldn't stack), and needed 100kg for an item?  I realize this isn't terribly likely, since you generally have a large supply of a few varieties.

2.  ARGH SO CLOSE.  Like you have 196kg of gold, but need 200kg to make that statue.  This is more about player expectations, because currently you can have 2 bars instead of the 3 you need, it just seems more frustrating being out 2% than 1/3.  I'd be thinking, "Just make it a LITTLE shorter!"  That's a relatively minor gripe.

Overall I think this is a cool idea!  I am curious what you think about those gripes, though.

Overall, these sound like the exact same thing.  If you need 100 kgs of stone for something, but only have 90 kgs of any one given type (and you cannot meld unlike stones together), then you're just going to have to quarry more stone.  The same goes for the gold statue.  If it takes 200 kgs to make a statue, you need 200 kgs to make that statue, unless it actually bothered you so much you would want to make a raw edit to make a "small statue" that occupies less space, and takes less materials (which may cause more problems than it solves).

... Of course, this makes me think of objects like Planepacked, and I wonder if decorations should start requiring a certain extra amount of volume before inscribing...
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Volume and Mass
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2010, 10:48:34 pm »

Oh, hey, I just found a new fun-fun conundrum:

I have a small oddity. Started viewing stuff for haul-to-depot.
A named goblin's bone (stack of five), weighing 78 units. Really heavy. Basic value 0 as of all bones.
Also have 2h-camel bone, stack of 17, weighing 68 units.
Also have 2h-camel bone, stack of 17, weighing 84 units.
I don't think bones should weigh the same as twice a unit of wood logs.

Hah! That sounds like a problem of volume and mass.  (I made a thread on that, you know...)

I'm guessing the thing is, you get the same number of bones no matter how big the camel is, but bigger camels have bigger bones.  The bones have the same density, but larger volume, and correspondingly, more mass.

Bone should probably be slightly denser than water (1000 kg/m^3, and Toady appears to adhere to kg/m^3 for his density scale), which is slightly denser than wood, but I don't see an easy number in the raws. 

Regardless, the real problem is that wooden logs are about half the size of the bones of humanoid-sized or camel-sized creatures. 

Goblins have an average "size" of 60,000 in the raws.  Size appears consistant through the raws, and appears to correlate to 1 ml per unit, and density of creatures overall should be roughly similar to water, so goblins should weigh 60 kg on average.  Camels, on the other hand, have a size of 500,000 in the raws, and by the same logic should mass 500 kg. 

The fact that those two creatures are giving very similar masses for what should be radically different bone volumes and similar densities (unless this game actually has bone density mechanics that can result in bones roughly 9 times denser than other creatures, I don't know...) are very strange.
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antymattar

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your idea rocks
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2010, 10:59:50 am »

I am so for this thing!!!

NW_Kohaku

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Re: Volume and Mass
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2010, 01:56:01 pm »

I just did some play with bones.

Remember, I don't know the exact density of bones right now...

Specifically, I embarked with elephants as common_domestic and pet_value 1 along with similarly low-value cats.

Cats provide 4 bones that weigh less than a kg total.

Elephants provide differing amounts of bones (lol, 2/3s a skeleton?) such as 53 and 67 bones, but more tellingly, the 67 bone pile weighed in at just over 901 kgs, which blows cat bones out of the water in terms of volume.

This means that any individual elephant bone weighs on average 13.45 kg.  The cat bones must weigh less than a quarter of a kg, each. 

Now then, in spite of this massive difference in the mass of a bone (which, presuming there is an even remotely comparable density, means the volume is different, presumably with the elephant bones being around 80 times the volume of a cat bone), each elephant bone only made 5 bone bolts, the same as a cat bone.

For reference, the raws say that (now that Toady apparently upped their volume to make them more deadly) crossbow bolts are 150 size (which is .15 liters of material), which means they combine to make .75 liters of material.  Bone, again, should be denser than water, but it's not surprising that even the 5 elephant bone bolts were still less than a kg in mass, meaning a density of less than 1333 kg/m^3, so again ,we cannot say extraordinary density.

This means we have a bone that masses in at 13.45 kg being reduced down to less than a kg in bone crossbow bolts, with all the rest of the bone wasted.  In fact, the tiny cat bones produced essentially the same material for what essentially amounts to 1/80th of the material.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Volume and Mass
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2010, 11:12:03 pm »

More fun with numbers:

Every bar appears to be 2 liters.
Logs are 50 liters.
Most layer stones have some form of default density, but they all have 186 kg mass.
Judging by minerals, which I presume produce the same volume of ore as a non-economic stone does, all stones have 70 liters of volume. 

(Note that you reduce an ore from 70 liters down to 2 liters, which may explain why it takes three metal units to make one furniture unit... although, of course, that's nowhere near enough.)

Bins are 15 liters.
Barrels appear to be about 20 liters.
Chairs are 30 liters.
Tables are 30 liters.

etc.
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Zalminen

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Re: Volume and Mass
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2010, 11:50:57 pm »

Hmm...

Making cubes fixed (dwarf)size would mean that there are now much more multi-tile creatures, which means pathfinding would need to be redone.

Of course this would have to be done sooner or later in any case...
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Volume and Mass
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2010, 08:22:48 am »

Hmm...

Making cubes fixed (dwarf)size would mean that there are now much more multi-tile creatures, which means pathfinding would need to be redone.

Of course this would have to be done sooner or later in any case...

Not as many as you'd think.

Like I'd said earlier, dragons can fit, so long as there isn't a low ceiling.  The problems would mostly be in creatures like Whales, or anything else with a size of over 25,000,000.
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Zalminen

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Re: Volume and Mass
« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2010, 12:15:40 pm »

Well, I mostly meant that the wagon pathfinding may just be special cased in the code and there may not currently be true support for multi-tile creature pathing.

But that's something only Toady knows so it's not very important here. Just something that popped into my mind.
 
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Volume and Mass
« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2010, 12:29:07 pm »

OK, I mistakenly closed the browser to clean up memory leaks in Opera, forgetting that I had a post that was half-written in here, which was covering how fluid dynamics could start to take place.

Also note, I am mostly talking about water when I am talking about fluids, here.  In fact, I have to constantly correct myself from saying "water" when I mean "fluid".  I will make another post later that will incorporate special quirks of magma, like pressure that builds up in magma chambers to cause eruptions.

So to try to make a quicky version of the previous deleted post (spoiling this into sections to keep length managable:


First, bodies of water must be composed of objects that are handled in their own special case of dynamic memory, rather than as properties of every tile.  For the purposes of pathfinding, there will probably need to be flags for "dangerous amounts of water, non-aquatics cannot path here" or "MAGMA! HOT!" that can be put in individual tile mapdata memory, but otherwise, like contaminants or furniture, fluid bodies can potentially be seperate chunks of memory, with a seperate "fluid mechanics" phase of every frame.

After that, we need fluid body to recognize when they are in a state of rest - that they are filling the container that the fluid body is in as efficiently as possible, and that no further motion is necessary, unless it is somehow disturbed.  This means that fluid, which would probably now be measured in liter form or the like, would try to level off, and then form a "placid lake" when not disturbed, with the top levels of a fluid body evenly distributed, with a remainder of water bodies, for example, probably gravitating to the edges in a little mockup of surface tension just to make things as even as possible.  Once it hits this state, fluid mechanics only checks for disturbance of the water, even if there is non-filling of the tiles.

Density can then become a matter of bouyancy.  Water has a density of 1000 in the game's choice of units, but this has problems since creatures are mainly made of 500 density organs, bones, and the like, which would make most creatures bouyant, and we need to have creatures capable of sinking to be capable of drowning.  Most woods, then, would also be bouyant, which may make for some fun mechanics, like floating logs down rivers to get to the sawmill.  (Of course, I do consider bouyancy something of a low priority if you do not wish to do all this in one go.) 

With that, however, we can also start modeling Displacement.  Dumping a 70-liter stone into the water will displace 70 liters of water when it sinks.  This causes a 70-liter rise in one tile of the fluid body (as the fluid mechanics would have to recognize how much space is available in every tile), and this would then have to start getting distributed. 

This brings up distribution rates, which is where we typically have to start breaking open the calculus.  Distributing the fluids, when we no longer have simple tile-to-tile transfers and delays between checks being the means of altering flow rates, depends on a great many factors, although fortunately, constant gravity, incompressible fluids and several other quirks of DF mechanics allow us to reduce several difficult variables to constants.  This means that we really only need a few variables: viscosity of each fluid (which will need to be a constant variable associated with every type of fluid), density (again, already a constant variable associated with every type of fluid), and fluid pressure (which is a simple, direct function of fluid depth, unless we start getting vulcanism involved with magma, where we might get some fun-fun with magma getting pressure that builds up from below).


Spoiler: diagram (click to show/hide)


Viscosity can simply be a constant of 1 or 1000 or some such for water, and be a different variable for other fluids to reflect their resistance to flow. (This is assuming simple newtonian fluids.)  You can simply divide the flow rate by the viscosity of the fluid to produce the "fluid friction" specific to that fluid because of viscosity.  This can, in fact, be kludged by simply setting a different effective "SPEED" rate for every type of fluid's checks - if magma is arbitrarily set to be 10 times more viscous than water, you could simply run magma flow checks 1/10th as frequently as the water flow is checked.  (Which may be what is already happening.)

Density is the opposite - the denser the material, the more force gravity can apply to a material, and for the purposes of purely gravity-driven fluid flows, doubling the density will double the rate of flow.  (So flow rate is multiplied by density when calculating purely gravity-driven flows.)

This is just a basic, 2-d version of fluid flow, however, I'll update on how "puddle mechanics" should work, since this whole thing is getting pretty long already.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Volume and Mass
« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2010, 12:53:59 pm »

Ah, and by the way, I am currently talking mostly about hydrostatic pressure as the force that provides the impulse upon water: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_pressure#Hydrostatic_pressure

This is the integral of depth, fluid density, and the force of gravity.  Since gravity is a constant, and density is a constant to a particular liquid, it is therefore only depth that is a variable, and all you need is to plug in that constant.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Volume and Mass
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2010, 03:31:11 pm »

Forgive me if this gets a little rambling, but this is, in part, a matter of my reasoning through the problem (and also my showing my work), so it will be long and discursive.  I will try to make an "executive summary" post at the end of all this to make a more concise case for a fluid system.

Allright, for my next trick, I have to reconcile the fact that we are dealing not with a single cross-sectional view of how much force will be pushing water across a plane, but to deal with the fact that water in this game is actually going to have to look much more like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shallow-water_equations

That is, if you are piping water off a cliff into a large pit at a constant rate of flow, then as water is added at the point where the water lands, then the sudden "pile" of water that is generated in one tile has to then be distributed outward into all the surrounding tiles.

One way of handling this is to simply divide the pressure into 8 seperate horizontal flows, but this starts to reveal one of the problems with doing this this way - we would then start to be dealing with fluids in the same interative, per-tile manner that I am trying to avoid making us use all over again.

Instead, I want to go back a step, and talk about how fluid actually MOVES once we have calculated the force behind it.


Spoiler: images (click to show/hide)


Now then, I can go back to where I started this post, and start talking about how this model needs expansion based upon two major problems - one is that bodies of water can have multiple "outflows" from it at once, like a single "swell" of water that must be divided in multiple directions, but the other is that I am talking about a velocity of water (and technically an acceleration of water) based upon pressure.  If we had a situation somewhat like having a large water tower with a hole punched in the side of the tower near the bottom, the water would not simply drop, it would be projected into a stream of water.  This latter problem is the problem that I want to tackle next - bodies that have a flow/velocity.

Therefore, bodies of water have to be divided into two types - lakes and rivers (or pipes), or bodies that either have no flow or do have a flow.

Lakes are those standing bodies of water that have no motion other than sloshing around the water in response to more water being added, or perhaps water being drained.  When water is drained off of a lake, thanks to opening a floodgate, or maybe a dwarf digging a channel, water then starts flowing out of the lake at a given velocity.  If the tile that is being flowed into is just a dead end, it simply becomes part of the lake whose water it took, expanding the body of water.  If, however, once water flows into an empty space, and the computer checks, and finds more space for that newly flowing water to flow into (like a long channel), then a new body of water is created, a river, and the river has a flow.  Even though it is contguous to the body of water that is a lake that created it, the river now has a special flow and velocity mechanic associated with the body of water, with the interface between the two bodies of water being the opened floodgate.  The flow of water into the new river translates into its velocity travelling onward through the channel.  As water is pushed into a river, it tries to push the water it is recieving forward at a similar rate, or picking up the pace if it happens to go down a drop.

Spoiler: river channel flow (click to show/hide)

This might seem semantic at first, but it is important in the building of rivers and brooks and dwarven perpetual motion devices that the notion that water has a velocity, and is maintaining its momentum until it has a reason to stop. 

Consider again the water tower with a hole in the side - if that water starts spouting out from the hole under pressure, it will have forward momentum.  Falling water itself would actually need special rules for applying gravity to the momentum (downward) so that it accellerates to a terminal velocity before it finally can come to rest wherever it lands.  In this case, the "river" would be a continuous flow from the hole down to wherever it lands, although perhaps this might be translated as individual globs of water with individual trajectories being pathed individually, depending on how much "spray" we want to have.  (In this case, it might be necessary to create a third type of body, a "spill" body, whose purpose is just to handle projectiles where there is no inflow or outflow of water, simply a traveling body of water that is trying to path to the lowest point it can find to be at rest, at which point it can turn into a "lake" body, unless it joins another body.)

In a brook or even a rapids, we can consider the "river" type body of water to simply be having an inflow and and outflow, which we can easily measure, and as long as the two are equal, we can save on processor power by just assuming the river continues flowing without changing in its shape in any fundementally important way.  The same can be said of "Dwarven Perpetual Motion Devices" - when pumps remove water from a current (and place it back into the same current), we can just balance the inflow and outflow to find a stable state where a constant rate of flow occurs, without having to waste CPU cycles finding the exact same answer over and over. 

In the case that the inflow and outflow are not equal, such as that diagram I made above, where water is inflowing, then the water has to expand outwards to find a place to store the extra water that is entering this body.  If, again, this turns into a dead-end channel, then the whole body of the "river" will eventually turn into a "lake" as it fills its container, and the two contiguous "lake" bodies can be joined (until the floodgate is once again closed).

The important part is that the expanding water has a starting velocity.  Real rivers will then have dips and rapids and narrows that can alter velocity accordingly (the narrower the river, the faster it will run, proportional to its starting point).  This means that we cannot track a river as having a velocity, but rather that different slices of rivers will have different velocities.  (This may actually be better handled by simply making seperate river bodies to track, however.)  This would get especially important when dealing with pipes, or aquaducts or other ceilinged water flows, as dropping water down in elevation before forcing it to come back up a bend will actually dramatically increase the water pressure and potentially its velocity as it drops.


This means we can handle the problem I was talking about in the start of this post in a different manner - when water is added into a pool from above, this creates a "swell", a raised portion of water in a lake, which then has to be distributed.  How this ultimately gets distributed in a lake is obvious: it should be perfectly level, with all tiles at the highest z-level having the same water depth.  The problem is finding the right rate to balance this swell out against the nearby tiles (which is a matter of that constant, above), and having a final smoothing function that simply makes a lake that has sloshing finally just die down instead of having "ripples" that slosh water around at the top of a lake.  More important, however, is that this allows us to still treat this as a single body with a single set of calculations, rather than as a bunch of individual tiles.  This means, rather than having one tile with more water in it than others, we are tracking a "lake" which happens to have a swell centered in one tile, whose water can be tracked as partially distributed. (Inversely, there should be a "depression" function for water draining out of a lake at a certain point, so that water outflowing a body creates a small whirlpool as water is removed first from the tiles near the outflow, with water flowing towards the depression to even out the lake again.)

I've been keeping this up on my screen for a couple days, and I don't want to lose it again, so I'm going to post this here.
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cameron

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Re: Volume and Mass
« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2010, 11:23:31 pm »

If the system of volume and mass were to be fixed as is your proposal along with a much improved "cave in" mechanic i would be interested to see liquid as simply a material with a shear stress value of zero, this could mean that liquids would barely need a special case at all. the main special case being buoyancy but this could be handled on a single tile basis by simple checks for density (displacement would also have to be a special case i think), at least on a single tile basis but as near as i can tell multitile boat things would need special cases in any approach.

the main issue of course with this approach is performance as unless there were some flag to ignore checks on fluids(or all materials to really if fluids are using the same system) after it hadn't moved in a while(or some other condition) it could end up much slower then currently depending on how cave ins and such were handled.

about the proposed fluid system most of it seems rather sensible. Though about the rivers one thing to think about is how would one know if there was any change to the river shape,  would the tiles be flagged as river touching so that if there was any change to them the river would be reevaluated or would they (the river adjacent tiles) simply be checked every tick or whatever.

about the dimensions in the square I think i might be an idea for squares to actually contain say 9 different place for a dwarf to stand in this would only be for creatures and certain furniture and these positions could be further split or combined depending on creature size so that longer weapons could make a more of a difference and would also allow for more sensible arrangements of both the number of people which fit in a tile(laying down or not) and not having your cabinet take up 27m3
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