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Author Topic: Magma Shouldnt Always Cool Into Obsidian  (Read 7319 times)

NW_Kohaku

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Re: Magma Shouldnt Always Cool Into Obsidian
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2010, 12:57:41 pm »


I don't think that's the case. From the Wikipedia article for "Obsidian":
Quote
Obsidian has low water content when fresh, typically less than 1% water by weight,[4]  but becomes progressively hydrated when exposed to groundwater, forming perlite.

Umm... looking at that article,

Quote
Because obsidian is metastable at the Earth's surface (over time the glass becomes fine-grained mineral crystals), no obsidian has been found that is older than Cretaceous age. This breakdown of obsidian is accelerated by the presence of water. Obsidian has low water content when fresh, typically less than 1% water by weight,[4] but becomes progressively hydrated when exposed to groundwater, forming perlite.

That refers to obsidian that has already cooled being chemically altered by water.  That would be similar to (already cooled) igneous rocks being turned into metamorphic rocks by weathering.  That would be entirely different from forming a different substance based on the way in which it was cooled.

I'd just like to point out, because I'm a nitpicker like this, that, while space is exceedingly cold, vacuums are very good insulators. As there isn't a lot of matter for heat to transfer to, things in space cool very slowly, which is why realistic stealth devices would never exist in real life, because the spaceship would be hot from it's engines firing and life support and would be incapable of bleeding that heat into it's surroundings.

It also has zero pressure, and pressure can radically alter how or if crystaline structures form and rapid pressure changes can lead to corresponding temperature changes.  The wikipedia article I was reading specifically refering to how they form on comets and outer planets.
Not a bad go at the felsic/intermediate/felsic system at all  ;D

Generally you will find only one of those basic pairs at a single volcano - the magma chamber and derived dykes and sills will dontain the intrusive version, the eruptive products will comprise the extrusive (i.e. faster cooled, therefore finer grained) versions.

However, ALL magmas are originally mafic in composition.  It is the process of cooling as the magma rises through the crust which causes variation.  Minerals with high melting points will crystallis out first, leading to a process known as fractional crystallisation.  Because the early-crystallising minerals are generally rich in iron and magnesium, and low in silica, as they are removed the remaining melt is relatively enriched in silica and depleted in iron and megnesium. 

Now imagine a magma chamber under a volcano:  It is periodically recharged with pulses of mafic material from the mantle, but a constant process of fractional crystallisation is going on.  If an eruption taps that magma chamber at intervals, then the type of magma erupted will depend on where in the fractionation cycle the magma chamber is at that point, leading to a variety of magma compositions being possible at any given vent.

This can be further complicated by volcanoes which have multiple active magma chambers, each of which may be tapped individually or in combination, often with their own volumes, cooling rates, and recharge periods.  It can get very complex very quickly.  However, broadly speaking volcanoes sit within one of the three broad magma groups stated above (in actual fact there are numerous subdivisions and classifications within those three broad groups).

The simplest way to think about volcanoes is those which have a mafic, mantle derived source produce runny lava and form broad low-angle slopes, such as those on Hawaii, while the opposite end of the spectrum has the highly evolved, silica rich magmas. These are very viscous and unable to move effectively as lava, so tend to form large explosive eruptions such as Mt St Helens and Pinatubo.  These volcanoes are steep sloped (about 30 degrees).   :D

On the subject of obsidian formation - you tend to see this produced mainly in rhyolite (i.e. felsic) eruptions - usually localised as spires or domes of material are extruded from the vent over a period of months or years.  Mixing magma and water should only really produce a very deadly pyroclastic cloud, full of steam, ash and death.  :P

Hmm... as cool as it would be to have a way of measuring how much a magma flow changes as it starts to cool and evolve as a magma flow, that's pretty much just beyond DF's current capabilities, where all magma is the same temperature. 

Since magma in the game now is basically either from the magma sea, or from a "volcano" that is really just a cyllindrical hole in the planet filled with magma straight down to the magma sea, I guess we should be thinking of it as mafic, and capable of freely mixing with the mafic magma at the parts of the center of the planet that are not Hell?

Hmm... apparently, while Wikipedia isn't helping much, google searching is giving me some hits on just plain "basatlic glass" that appear to be a little different from the named, pumice-like glasses such as tachylite or Scoria, and seem to be a little more obsidian-like in nature, but they all generally note that they weather very quickly into other stones.

http://www.geo.uni-bremen.de/Ozeankruste/Research/Research_Weathering.htm  (Talks about biological weathering of basaltic glass in deep sea vents - the stone he's holding looks somewhat obsidian-like, compared to the more pumice-like Scoria.)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42398031@N02/4037065202/ (The stuff in the center is a sand with basaltic glass fragments)

Ah... This one is actually more helpful - http://www1.newark.ohio-state.edu/Professional/OSU/Faculty/jstjohn/Volcano%20stuff/Kupaianaha.htm - apparently, the black, glassy (non-vescular, or filled with holes like pumice is) surface is tachylite, so maybe I was getting things a little wrong, since this page is saying tachylite is essentially the mafic version of obsidian.

Apparently, tachylite can refer to both the mafic version of obsidian, but also to certain types of pumice when basaltic volcanos erupt pyroclastically, although wikipedia seemed to imply more of the latter.  This also says that mafic obsidian displays many of the same properties of regular obsidian, except that its iron impurities will make it turn rust red as it oxidizes.

Armed with that knowledge, I guess I would say that perhaps we could have the mafic tachylite as an alternative to the obsidian we normally get, if we simply give it similar properties to the obsidian we already get (although wikipedia gave me the impression tachylite was somewhat more brittle than even obsidian).

Given the last paragraph of what Xenoc said, however, I think maybe just creating obsidian is wrong.  If we are adding water, and making "pyroclastic clouds of death", perhaps we should be having pumice, along with a little of the obsidian (mafic or felsic).  Theoretically, rather than instantly creating an obsidian wall out of any tile where magma and water contact, first some pumice stones may be created, which are flung at high velocity out of the tile, potentially causing a little mayhem as they rain back down to earth (if this was not in an inside controlled chamber), after which, obsidian may form as normal (or have a small chance of forming, based on how deep the magma was, if we want to be more exact, as a small puddle of magma might entirely be turned into that exploding pumice rain.)
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Re: Magma Shouldnt Always Cool Into Obsidian
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2010, 08:22:51 pm »


I don't think that's the case. From the Wikipedia article for "Obsidian":
Quote
Obsidian has low water content when fresh, typically less than 1% water by weight,[4]  but becomes progressively hydrated when exposed to groundwater, forming perlite.

Umm... looking at that article,

Quote
Because obsidian is metastable at the Earth's surface (over time the glass becomes fine-grained mineral crystals), no obsidian has been found that is older than Cretaceous age. This breakdown of obsidian is accelerated by the presence of water. Obsidian has low water content when fresh, typically less than 1% water by weight,[4] but becomes progressively hydrated when exposed to groundwater, forming perlite.

I find it unlikely that it would somehow form an anhydrous stone when it's being cooled via contact with water, though. Maybe that can happen if some of the mass of magma is insulated from the water via a crust forming, or something like that, but I'm skeptical. After all, if the result can become hydrated, and it's being cooled by water submersion, then why wouldn't it have a higher water content to start?

Quote
Hmm... as cool as it would be to have a way of measuring how much a magma flow changes as it starts to cool and evolve as a magma flow, that's pretty much just beyond DF's current capabilities, where all magma is the same temperature.

To be fair here, practically everything we're talking about is beyond DF's current capabilities regarding flows in general, with the exception of just having obsidian replaced by something else as the "lava stone".


At any rate, I don't personally think it's worth changing much very much right now until some potential point where the actual mineral content of the magma (and the process by which it is cooled) can come into consideration.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Magma Shouldnt Always Cool Into Obsidian
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2010, 10:53:16 pm »

I find it unlikely that it would somehow form an anhydrous stone when it's being cooled via contact with water, though. Maybe that can happen if some of the mass of magma is insulated from the water via a crust forming, or something like that, but I'm skeptical. After all, if the result can become hydrated, and it's being cooled by water submersion, then why wouldn't it have a higher water content to start?

The pumice-style hydrous stones I was looking at form specifically because there is water mixed into the magma as a solution, and the fact that the water is still a gas, even as the rock hardens, forcing the gas to escape, is what makes all that low-density vescular rock.  So, yes, I'm thinking it would be that the outer stone might mix and make a little hydrous rock, but that the rapidly cooling outer stone would then make a shell that would block off most of the rest of the cooling stone from coming into contact with water that is falling from above.

Still, it'd be nice if Xenoc or someone else with real subject matter knowledge could give me some more detailed descriptions...
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Re: Magma Shouldnt Always Cool Into Obsidian
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2010, 10:14:05 am »

Magma has dissolved volatiles in it - these include water, but may also include noble gases, nitroge, sulphur and nitrogen oxides, etc.  These are present in low (but measurable) quanitites in mafic magmas.  However,a s these magmas ascend through the crust and assimilate crustal material the proportion of these volatiles increases.

How these volatiles express themselves int eh final rock depends on a few factors.  As the magma rises it depressurises, forcing these volatiles out of solution.  If it rises slowly these gases can simply outgas, leaving the magma in equilibrium with its depth.  If the magma rises quickly, however, the outgassing can lead to bubbling and - like a champagne bottle - lots of fragmentation of the liquid.  That's your basic difference between quiet effusive eruptions and big explosive ones.

As far as obsidian is concerned - obsidian is a volcanic glass, and very little can be said about what type of magma it came from without chemical analysis (all obsidians are dark, but most felsic igneous rocks appear lighter than mafic ones due to the relative concentrations of  Fe/Mg and Si).  Obsidian forms by rapid cooling of a melt which bears no crystals.  It also suggests that the magma is at pressure equilibrium with its surroundings - so it was either runny, allowing the gas to escape easily, or rose very slowly and has been sat near the surface for many months or years.

Because obsidian (and indeed any volcanic glass) is metastable at standard temperatures and pressures, it begins to break down through hydrolysis and oxidation.  The first sign of this is what is known as snowflake obsidian - the white areas are the breakdown products.


Extrusive volcanic rocks often have glasses associated with them - the surface of lava flows frequently has a glassy layer.  When we talk about obsidian, we're usually referring to the formation of tens of centimeters of uniform glass.  However - Obsidian is always associated with some outgassing, so you often find it mixed with pumice-like bands and layers.  If you imagine a very slow (1m an hour at most, may be as slow as 10cm a month), very viscous fluid being extruded regions of it will cool slightly differently, or interact with the atmosphere or surface etc.  Picture below is of flow banded obsidian, where the white pumice-like material, and the black obsidian have been smeared as the material flowed.



If you mix water with hot magma at standard temperatures and pressures basically the magma shatters, and the water converts to superheated steam.  Volcanic glass *will* be produced, but in micron to centimeter scale fragments of volcanic ash.  These get buoyed up in the generated steam and coughing death cloud of pyroclastic FUN is go.

For a better idea of what happens when magma contacts water, check out the videos of the submarine eruption near Tonga last year:
e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ml5uolY9rFI

Images and videos mercilessly robbed from google.  ;D
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Magma Shouldnt Always Cool Into Obsidian
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2010, 11:08:38 am »

OooooOOOOOooooh!  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsJn8izcKtg&feature=related pillow lava formations.  (I also like the "Warning: Lava Hot! Do not try at home!" at the start)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmMlspNoZMs&feature=fvw

Of course, once again, DF volcanos don't work like this because not only do volcanos never erupt, they can't even be pressurized!

So, basically, I'll stick with my previous "make obsidian/mafic obsidian/tachylite plus randomly fling pumice stones" suggestion for now as the simple idea, since we'd be getting both (although apparently in neat swirling patterns, not exactly solid blocks) until we can have better magma dynamics... Which makes me want to go back over to the Volume and Mass thread and start working some magma dynamics.
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Re: Magma Shouldnt Always Cool Into Obsidian
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2010, 08:07:54 pm »

As far as obsidian is concerned - obsidian is a volcanic glass, and very little can be said about what type of magma it came from without chemical analysis (all obsidians are dark, but most felsic igneous rocks appear lighter than mafic ones due to the relative concentrations of  Fe/Mg and Si).

Doesn't it come from felsic magma by definition? As far as I can tell, obsidian is necessarily composed primarily of SiO2 (and according to Wikipedia, is "very felsic" and contains MgO and Fe3O4 as primary impurities).
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Magma Shouldnt Always Cool Into Obsidian
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2010, 08:30:34 pm »

As far as obsidian is concerned - obsidian is a volcanic glass, and very little can be said about what type of magma it came from without chemical analysis (all obsidians are dark, but most felsic igneous rocks appear lighter than mafic ones due to the relative concentrations of  Fe/Mg and Si).

Doesn't it come from felsic magma by definition? As far as I can tell, obsidian is necessarily composed primarily of SiO2 (and according to Wikipedia, is "very felsic" and contains MgO and Fe3O4 as primary impurities).

According to what I read, it's most commonly found in nature as a felsic glass.  However, you can call a mafic glass "mafic obsidian" (or tachylite).

So, no, not by definition, just that on earth, it is far, far more commonly found felsic.
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Re: Magma Shouldnt Always Cool Into Obsidian
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2010, 08:36:07 pm »

Er, from what I'm reading, "obsidian" simply isn't used for tachylite at all. I guess I could see it being called "mafic obsidian" in the sense that it's what obsidian would be if it were mafic, but I don't think "obsidian" is as general a term as you claim.

For what it's worth, "mafic obsidian" only gets six google results; two are from some shitty Prentice Hall quiz, one is quite possibly obviously being used as a comparative term, another doesn't actually say "mafic obsidian" at all (they're separated by commas in a list as "mafic, obsidian"), and another is someone being confused.

It is not a term that people use, is what I'm saying. Not even technically.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 08:39:28 pm by G-Flex »
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Re: Magma Shouldnt Always Cool Into Obsidian
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2010, 08:39:08 pm »

Er, from what I'm reading, "obsidian" simply isn't used for tachylite at all. I guess I could see it being called "mafic obsidian" in the sense that it's what obsidian would be if it were mafic, but I don't think "obsidian" is as general a term as you claim.

see this link: http://www1.newark.ohio-state.edu/Professional/OSU/Faculty/jstjohn/Volcano%20stuff/Kupaianaha.htm

Quote
This black rim is mafic obsidian (aka basalt glass; aka tachylite).  Mafic obsidian has the same physical characteristics expected for the common felsic variety of obsidian - it has a glassy texture, with conchoidal fracture, sharp broken edges, and a jet black color.
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Re: Magma Shouldnt Always Cool Into Obsidian
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2010, 08:41:21 pm »

A single person using a term once does not mean it's a term accepted by the general public, an industry, an academic body, or a field of study, or anyone/anything else. It means nothing. I can find orders of magnitude more results if I search "homeopathy works".
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Re: Magma Shouldnt Always Cool Into Obsidian
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2010, 09:25:54 pm »

A single person using a term once does not mean it's a term accepted by the general public, an industry, an academic body, or a field of study, or anyone/anything else. It means nothing. I can find orders of magnitude more results if I search "homeopathy works".

Whatever, there's no point in another purely semantic argument with you.
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Re: Magma Shouldnt Always Cool Into Obsidian
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2010, 09:32:44 pm »

It's kind of disingenuous to say "whatever, I don't care" the second you're shown to be wrong.


Seriously though, it's obvious that's just a personal term that particular guy uses in order to draw a comparison between the two types of stone, which is totally fine, but doesn't reflect any sort of actual terminology.


For what it's worth, it's actually very easy to find wrong terminology on the internet, even on university sites. Out of curiosity, I just checked to see how many *.edu sites say "gigabyte ethernet" and got 42 results. Wonderful.
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Re: Magma Shouldnt Always Cool Into Obsidian
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2010, 10:05:23 pm »

Hopefully any argument in here will not continue to devolve into personal attacks.
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Re: Magma Shouldnt Always Cool Into Obsidian
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2010, 10:44:45 am »

Quote from: NW_Kohaku
So it only happens in nature if you consider the vacuum of space nature.

I'd just like to point out, because I'm a nitpicker like this, that, while space is exceedingly cold, vacuums are very good insulators. As there isn't a lot of matter for heat to transfer to, things in space cool very slowly, which is why realistic stealth devices would never exist in real life, because the spaceship would be hot from it's engines firing and life support and would be incapable of bleeding that heat into it's surroundings.

Glassy Ice would be formed by dropping a glass of water into something like liquid nitrogen.

Anyway, I do agree with the OP. It would be nice for magma flows to cool into other types of stone.

Actually "Mass Effect" touches on that.  Realistic stealth device can exist, in regard to thermal issues you'll have to ensure no heat escape the ship (a array of peltier device on the outer hull tuned to mimic back-ground thermal radiation is feasible).  The difficulty is that since you're not dissipating heat, sooner or later the interior of the ship will be extremely hot (which means your stealth is only temporary).
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Re: Magma Shouldnt Always Cool Into Obsidian
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2010, 11:01:11 am »

I'd just like to point out, because I'm a nitpicker like this, that, while space is exceedingly cold, vacuums are very good insulators. As there isn't a lot of matter for heat to transfer to, things in space cool very slowly, which is why realistic stealth devices would never exist in real life, because the spaceship would be hot from it's engines firing and life support and would be incapable of bleeding that heat into it's surroundings.

The bolded part is an interesting contradiction.  The spacecraft's temperature makes it visible precisely because it's bleeding heat as thermal radiation (in the infrared range).  Also, thrusters don't have to be hot.  The MMU used inert nitrogen.
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