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Author Topic: *spoilers*Making the HFS more deadly  (Read 7922 times)

Medicine Man

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*spoilers*Making the HFS more deadly
« on: August 22, 2010, 09:20:25 am »

You know about the hidden fun stuff right?yes?that's wonderful now what I am suggesting is that when you mine through to hell it should have more apocolyptic things happening to the world such as:

The sea turning into deadly blood

Any underground water turning into deadly blood.

Lakes turning into deadly blood

Increased savagery slowly spreading around the world

Increased evil biomes spreading around the world

All beverages slowly turning into deadly blood (this should slowly spread across the world)

All meat rotting away much faster (this should slowly spread across the world)

Demons taking over cities and claming them as their own (this should probably be put in if there is a feature to make towns always hostile)

Worlds soil slowly turning into ash

Deadly rain

Animals getting possesed and going on killing sprees

More violent behaviour in towns

Towns religons saying that their gods wrath is upon the world (with violent god worshipping religions)

Towns religions saying that their god must have forsaken them (with non violent god worshipping religions)

Heat increasing slowly

Plants dieing very fast


What do you think about these?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 07:30:42 am by Dwarf mc dwarf »
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existent

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Re: *spoilers*Making the HFS more deadly
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2010, 09:27:39 am »

Well, worldgen stops once you start playing, so I don't know if these things could "spread". However, it would be interesting to see it just happening around your fort.
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Medicine Man

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Re: *spoilers*Making the HFS more deadly
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2010, 09:31:53 am »

They can't spread?DAMN!anyway it still would be cool to see these happen to your fortress.
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TheyTarget

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Re: *spoilers*Making the HFS more deadly
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2010, 11:54:18 am »

It would just be death. Theres no way around that. Literally all your food rots, and drinks become useless. I dont think toady would really just kill you.
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Re: *spoilers*Making the HFS more deadly
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2010, 11:59:22 am »

Yeah, there was a big discussion about this sort of thing a while back and one of the major points raised was that if/when most of this stuff comes about, it'd basically just be a death sentence. In fact, it's actually worse than just having the clowns butcher everyone and everything in the fortress, because at least you can fight that.

Besides, most of the other stuff doesn't really fit in with DF's procedural nature - you say the "world's soil should eventually burn to ash" and "heat should slowly increase" but there's nothing that specifically says that the HFS should have anything to do with fire or heat at all (besides it being situated in firey hell, of course, but that'll probably be replaced with alternatives later on).
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: *spoilers*Making the HFS more deadly
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2010, 12:46:19 pm »

Aside from all that, basically, if "rivers turn to blood" when HFS is unsealed, then it raises some serious questions about the nature of this whole thing...

If the "evil" in HFS is just the clowns, then it makes some sense - the evil creatures were just sealed away in a boring and inhospitable wasteland. 

More to the point, though, if you release HFS, and are alive for long enough for this "evil" to corrupt the world, then it means that either A) You killed all the clowns from at least the initial surge, and are holding the tides of Hell back by either force of arms from your elite team of demon-hunters, or through a massive mechanical doom machine destroying any creature that pokes its head up, or B) that you re-sealed the HFS.  Either case, it means that there's no clowns frolicking around in your fortress, and it means that it's not the clowns that are the source of "evil".

If HFS is actually the source of all this "evil", then it raises some questions about why there are demons walking around the land (showing they escaped) without destroying the whole world with the leaking Fisher King "evil" all around.

If the lion's share of the "evil" in the world was bottled up, where did all the "good" come from?  Why aren't they doing anything, letting the world get taken over?  I mean, if there are gods, even not particularly good ones, why do they take no part in the world while it goes to shit because the clowns are partying all day?

I mean, it's kind of silly to have a mechanic for "the world dies, and there's nothing you can do about it" in a game, espeically in a game where you're pretty much supposed to Dig Too Deep.  There should be a way to Fight The Power, and frankly, demon genocide is the most logical way to do that. 

So what, if you start to make the clowns go extinct, does this crap reverse?  Do the rivers flow with fermented ambrosia rum, and the world turns into dwarfy paradise?
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FallingWhale

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Re: *spoilers*Making the HFS more deadly
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2010, 01:39:07 pm »

If the clownish hoards are more then enough to crash most games why do you think it could handle all this and Bobo's death squad?
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Foehamster

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Re: *spoilers*Making the HFS more deadly
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2010, 02:07:39 pm »

I'd be for clowncorpses causing some local corruption (through a sort of evil miasma), but I think if your fort can keep the clowns at bay, it should be quite livable and playable just with the occasional beer barrel full of bats.

If the fort crumbles I would like to at least see the local area soon (1-4 seasons) become uninhabitable, burnt and diseased if you visit/reclaim. If the clowns have access to the surface, then there should be worldgen results of local kobolds and goblins and other civs either fighting or being corrupted by the demons.  Again the effect should start local and branch out to more world tiles.

It should stagnate if the breach is sealed (or just protected by an active fortress) and reverse as clowns killed off.

Not to mention we might want some worldgen activity where Fun might be breached accidentally or purposefully by a civ.  A lot of this might depend upon the army arc where you may send out an army with a sapper squad to seal a breach located at a dark fortress.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: *spoilers*Making the HFS more deadly
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2010, 02:19:01 pm »

Nonsense, if the presence of clowns causes some "evil" "corruption", then there has to be something in the player's power to spread "good" or "purity" to compensate, otherwise it doesn't make sense.

Frankly, that just doesn't fit with DF, especially since I'd hardly call the dwarves under player's controls exemplars of "purity". 

The entire idea of spreading blood in the rivers as a sign of "evil" is just wrong, as DF isn't the sort of game where you can paint a black and white morality over it.  (Where "good" means a normal place, but with unicorns to impale your hunters instead of just hippos.)

This might have more place in the game if we had sphere-based surroundings rather than the placeholder "good" "evil" and "savage", and releasing the HFS could cause some shift in the surroundings to spheres held by some of the demons, but only if the dwarves have the ability to change those surroundings back through their own actions, and only if killing off the demons would allow for a cessation of their ability to shift the spheres.
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Keuran

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Re: *spoilers*Making the HFS more deadly
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2010, 08:50:40 pm »

The sphere change system would be interesting and appropriate for the sort of worlds DF seems to be trying to attain, though the demons would need something controlling what spheres they're given. Any demons that pop out of a breach should have similar spheres to avoid conflicting changes to the environment and should generally have opposing spheres to any true gods(not fake gods created by people on a whim), and may be less violent if the surrounding gods are all warmongers. The latter would explain why the gods would want to seal them away in the first place without forcing a goodVSevil situation and the former would likely be a result of either similar demons grouping together like high-school cliques or opposing demons killing off other nearby demons with conflicting interests.

One possible system would be for both the gods and the demons to have control over an area at any given time. It would start with the local gods having 70 or 80 percent control over the sphere, with the demons at 20 or 30 because they're sealed off. If hell is breached, the balance starts shifting towards 70 or 80 percent in the demons' favour due to their numbers. If the breach is sealed again, the balance would stagnate. As any escaped demons are killed, the spheres would move back to how they were originally, and if hundreds start dying, it could shift even more in the gods' favour.

I hope I didn't contradict myself there.

EDIT: Just to make myself clear, I was just agreeing with NW_Kohaku.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 12:24:26 am by Keuran »
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Re: *spoilers*Making the HFS more deadly
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2010, 12:11:36 am »

The "sphere-based system" is already on the list, so...
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Neonivek

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Re: *spoilers*Making the HFS more deadly
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2010, 12:20:26 am »

It would be interesting if the HFS was a roving field of violent chaos with more focus on its exotic somewhat randomised flora and fauna. Trees that grow human skulls that bleed for their eye sockets. Black Roses whos thorns protrude poisons toxic enough to drop an elephant. Diseases and illnesses all plague worthy and deadly.

The protection from HFS is obviously to reduce exposure to it and/or to seal it back up.
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VoidPointer

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Re: *spoilers*Making the HFS more deadly
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2010, 07:04:07 am »

So what, if you start to make the clowns go extinct, does this crap reverse?  Do the rivers flow with fermented ambrosia rum, and the world turns into dwarfy paradise?

I know you said this in jest, Kohaku, but it actually sounds like a pretty cool idea, as Keuran mentioned. It would add a sense of (immense) risk vs. reward to breaching and conquering HFS. While simply re-sealing it is boring and would simply result in a return to the normal state of existence, taking territory in HFS and/or mass-slaughtering its inhabitants could reduce their hold on the world (and increasing the dwarves', leading to more dorfiness), leading to rivers that flow with beer (or even sunshine!), trees that grow twice as fast, and the birth of new species like the Giant Bearded Wingbeard, whose diet consists of elven diplomats. These effects would start slowly, of course, but they could also slowly radiate out to surrounding lands. Of course, when your fort starts to look more like Xanadu than Gormenghast, you can expect nobles, and eventually the King, to decide to move in, and the elves to start thinking that such a blessed land surely is holy to one of their gods or another, and decide to annex you...


Of course, getting this to play nice with the (complex, random) sphere system would be difficult, to say the least.
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Medicine Man

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Re: *spoilers*Making the HFS more deadly
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2010, 07:34:33 am »

Yeah, sealing off the place or killing the clowns should make the effects reverse slowly.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: *spoilers*Making the HFS more deadly
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2010, 09:20:03 am »

It would be interesting if the HFS was a roving field of violent chaos with more focus on its exotic somewhat randomised flora and fauna. Trees that grow human skulls that bleed for their eye sockets. Black Roses whos thorns protrude poisons toxic enough to drop an elephant. Diseases and illnesses all plague worthy and deadly.

The protection from HFS is obviously to reduce exposure to it and/or to seal it back up.

Only if we can make triple damage poison using the Spiddal Sticks we collect.  Ah, I love alchemy.

the elves to start thinking that such a blessed land surely is holy to one of their gods or another, and decide to annex you...

Of course, they worship nature itself as their deity.  I really think Pandora describes elves perfectly... They love trees because the trees are their deity.  The more healthy the forest is, the stronger their deity is.  If anything, if your lands became paradise, they might revile it as being as unnatural as a land of undeath.
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