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[mrtspence]

Hi all.

Been noticing some weird things goin on with the combat lately.

Whips seem to completely ignore armour and insta-gib whatever part they hit. Had a silver whip make it through Steel Plate and chain and still have enough power left to fracture a spine.

Also, it seems that ever since I put on chain as well as breastplate, the breastplate is no longer functioning. Copper spears are bruising my dwarves upper bodies through the chain, and the breastplate is either being ignored completely, pierced without it mentioning it, or there are holes in the breastplate that they are attacking though.

Some answers would be lovely, and if they really are bugs, fixes would be sweet. Thanks.

[Seriyu]

I dunno about the rest, but whips inparticular have a very small contact area, causing damage to be very localized, and to slip by cracks in the armor. I know that the neck isn't often well armored, if armored at all, for example.

[Jazzfunk]

I've heard of a particular bug in which a weapon that pierces one layer of clothing will automatically go through any other layer, which explains the breastplate problem.   Laser-whips are also a bug, as addressed above.

[Ganthan]

In regards to the mail shirt vs breastplate thing, attacks are checked against the armor worn at that given location but the problem is that only one layer of armor is checked against.  Testing in the arena revealed that when I entered the breastplate first and the mail shirt after, all attacks to the upper body were checked against the mail shirt.  Conversely when I entered mail shirt first and then breastplate the attacks were checked against the breastplate.  In either case upper arm attacks were always checked against the mail shirt.

There's likely a similar issue behind protection of fingers, toes and facial features, but I've never had any luck protecting them aside from blocking, dodging and parrying.

So I guess the solution is to make sure when equipping your soldiers that they put on the mail shirt first, and then the breastplate over that.  I've heard concerns about wearing a cloak or robe over everything and totally ganking your armor, but I've personally never seen an issue with that.  Then again I haven't much experience with actual in-game combat vs arena testing.

As for weapons like spears and whips penetrating armor, that's just what they do.  Weapons have different stats such as contact area and penetration depth.  Slashing attacks can be very damaging but have a lot of contact area and therefore is much less useful against armor.  Weapons and attacks with smaller contact areas, primarily piercing, have much better chances of penetrating armor.  It's possible for a copper spear to penetrate steel armor and for bronze armor to deflect a steel axe.  A lot of it is based on the skill of the attacker and defender as well.

To help put whips into perspective:

    Contact area values:
         Battle Axe hack: 40000
         Short Sword slash: 20000
         Short Sword stab: 50
         Mace bash: 20
         War Hammer bash: 10
         Whip lash: 1

I'm afraid whips are a bit overpowered at the moment.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

In regards to the mail shirt vs breastplate thing, attacks are checked against the armor worn at that given location but the problem is that only one layer of armor is checked against.  Testing in the arena revealed that when I entered the breastplate first and the mail shirt after, all attacks to the upper body were checked against the mail shirt.  Conversely when I entered mail shirt first and then breastplate the attacks were checked against the breastplate.  In either case upper arm attacks were always checked against the mail shirt.

Is this bug entered into the tracker? It should be.
edit: couldn't find it, so entered it here: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=3196

[Ganthan]

Nevermind, forget all of the first half of my previous post.  After even more testing and watching silver mail shirts deflect steel battle axes with an adamantine breastplate underneath, my assumptions were all wrong.  No matter HOW the armor is being worn the stronger armor is still there offering its protection, whether the mail shirt is worn outside or the breastplate.

I've also tried to recreate the 'cloth armor over metal armor' bug and have been totally unsuccessful.  Just like with above, the stronger armor seems to always win out.

See, the thing is that multiple layers of metal armor always report that the outside layer did the reflecting, even though the strongest armor was checked against.  Cloth or silk doesn't even appear in the report when there is metal armor there as well.

The way I see it, this whole 'cloth armor over metal armor' bug isn't really a bug at all, but a misconception caused by fighting against enemy lashers and not knowing about the absolutely ridiculous armor penetration of whips.


TL;DR There doesn't seem to be any bug with armor layers.  Whips are just overpowered.

[mrtspence]

Nevermind, forget all of the first half of my previous post.  After even more testing and watching silver mail shirts deflect steel battle axes with an adamantine breastplate underneath, my assumptions were all wrong.  No matter HOW the armor is being worn the stronger armor is still there offering its protection, whether the mail shirt is worn outside or the breastplate.

I've also tried to recreate the 'cloth armor over metal armor' bug and have been totally unsuccessful.  Just like with above, the stronger armor seems to always win out.

See, the thing is that multiple layers of metal armor always report that the outside layer did the reflecting, even though the strongest armor was checked against.  Cloth or silk doesn't even appear in the report when there is metal armor there as well.

The way I see it, this whole 'cloth armor over metal armor' bug isn't really a bug at all, but a misconception caused by fighting against enemy lashers and not knowing about the absolutely ridiculous armor penetration of whips.


TL;DR There doesn't seem to be any bug with armor layers.  Whips are just overpowered.

Good to know. MUCH appreciated. Although, lashers did save me the effort of getting my moody, prone-to-deadly-fits-of-rage Captain of the Guard crushed under a draw bridge.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Nevermind, forget all of the first half of my previous post.  After even more testing and watching silver mail shirts deflect steel battle axes with an adamantine breastplate underneath, my assumptions were all wrong.  No matter HOW the armor is being worn the stronger armor is still there offering its protection, whether the mail shirt is worn outside or the breastplate.

I've also tried to recreate the 'cloth armor over metal armor' bug and have been totally unsuccessful.  Just like with above, the stronger armor seems to always win out.

See, the thing is that multiple layers of metal armor always report that the outside layer did the reflecting, even though the strongest armor was checked against.  Cloth or silk doesn't even appear in the report when there is metal armor there as well.

The way I see it, this whole 'cloth armor over metal armor' bug isn't really a bug at all, but a misconception caused by fighting against enemy lashers and not knowing about the absolutely ridiculous armor penetration of whips.


TL;DR There doesn't seem to be any bug with armor layers.  Whips are just overpowered.

That actually makes some sense, since I've seen my cloth capes deflect iron swords and so forth. If that's the case, then I'd still say there's a display bug, but obviously it's not critical.

I have seen bruising of organs happen through multiple layers -- hearts getting bruised through cloak, breastplate, and mail, for example -- but it's possible that's just bludgeoning damage doing what it's supposed to do, brusing through layers, with whips as an extreme case.