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Dwarf Fortress => DF Suggestions => Topic started by: NW_Kohaku on April 27, 2011, 02:45:16 pm

Title: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 27, 2011, 02:45:16 pm

In the development postings, Toady and Three Toe have been talking about generating catacombs with new types of Night Creature-like creatures which are suitable for living in sewers and other subterranean zones.  In the Future of the Fortress thread, this has led to a spin-off discussion about mythology, and new creatures and powers that creatures can have.

So, this is a "brainstorming" thread, where posters are encouraged to come up with stories of creatures from myth or fiction that have very unusual logic or goals. 

I don't mean just another bizarrely-shaped critter that just likes to eat dwarves like all the Forgotten Beasts or most other cavern creatures, I mean creatures that have truly strange habits, and feed upon or behave by very strange rules.  The purpose is to create a list of creatures that would be radically different in the way that they actually would pose a challenge to the player... if they are actually even hostile to the player at all. 

Here was what we were discussing before:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Dante on April 20, 2011, 06:02:51 pm

Quote from: devlog

Catacombs! Undead! Make sure you activate the waypoint or it's a huge hassle if your adventurer has to run all the way from the inner cloister to get back to your body!

I'm hoping to see proper vampires, personally, with some of their insanely numerous associated powers.

Quote from: monk12 on April 20, 2011, 10:13:24 pm

I'd like to see weaknesses and such be procedurally generated, but unique to monster type. So all the hags are weak to oak wood, and the trolls hate honey, or whatever. Of course, right now I think that each individual night creature is unique compared to all the rest, so unless we get one super-successful night creature that takes enough mates and sires enough children to perpetuate itself (a la Dracula), then we have to deal with the odd fact that the peasants somehow know how to defeat the night creature, but are unable to do it themselves.

If monster types do end up being the way Toady goes (or the successful single night creature posited above), then you have the justification that some folk hero has killed one before, and therefore everyone knows the story. This leads to the situation where all the villagers just know that if you carry holly berries around on your person the local monster won't bother you- unfriendly little towns may withhold this information in order to dispose of unwelcome foreigners who wouldn't know the custom. This could lead to the quasi-symbiotic situation where the villagers are afforded some measure of protection from bandits and the like because the outsiders do not know how to defeat the monster, and since this is beneficial to the villagers they never tell outsiders how to defeat it, which helps the monster kill new victims.

Quote from: NW_Kohaku on April 21, 2011, 09:40:45 am

Weaknesses may not kill the creature, though.

Vampires, as Dante was saying, have a weakness to beans - they aren't killed by beans, but they have to stop and count the beans.  It distracts them.

I've looked up mythologies from around the world, and some cultures have very quirky, if not outright humorous "weaknesses" for some monsters.

Kappa, for example, are Japanese river creatures that look like humanoid turtles with beaks and carry a plate on their head.  The plate is somehow affixed to the top of their bald head and contains the water from their home body of water.  If they ever lose contact with their home water, they die immediately, so breaking the plate is the killer weakness of the creature.  Their second-favorite meal is human (especially human children)... something.  The actual thing they eat changes depending on the story, but generally, it's either the livers, intestines, or some portion of the human's soul, which they suck out through the belly button (or some other, lower opening in the human). 

Thing is, their absolute favorite food is cucumbers.  So if you bribe kappa with cucumbers, they'll leave you alone, and won't eat you.  There are festivals where people write the names of their family members on cucumbers, and toss the cucumbers in the river to bribe the kappa every year, giving up a tribute of cucumbers so the monsters don't eat their souls.

Other amusing things are that, for all their potential soul-eating, you can just plain talk to them, as well, and they were forced to obey customary politeness.  If you bow deeply to a kappa in greeting, they would have to bow just as deeply in return, which could spill the water out of their plate, and defeat the kappa for you.

Anyway, something like a way to distract or bribe a monster would probably be more generally known knowledge, since it's something where you didn't have to kill the creature to know it.  Maybe a not-quite-so-hostile monster will just outright go up and ask to be bribed if he prefers people throw him his favorite food of their own accord as a sort of protection racket.  I mean, the more people know that leaving your favorite whip wine out near your cave will keep you from busting in and killing their family, the more whip wine you'll suddenly find out near your cave for you to drink whenever, right?

Quote from: Neonivek on April 21, 2011, 11:09:24 am

Don't forget that not all weaknesses are just about what hurts it more. It could also be the requirements for it to hunt or spot a creature.

For example Chinease (I THINK it is) vampires hunt by smelling one's breath. Thus holding your breath legitimately works.

So I guess another weakness could be a condition where the creature lacks the ability to sense the presence of something.

So lets see weaknesses so far
1) Cannot notice
2) Hurt
3) Satiated
4) Stall

I mean if you want more things people have done to avoid monsters
-Walking across a bridge backwards avoids the attention of fairies (and trolls)
-Hemlock under your pillow wards off spirits (I think)
-Wolvesbane wards off Werewolves

Oooh there should be Nightcreatures where if you say their name three times they should just strangle you no matter where you are and they are. Bloodymary should TOTALLY be a night creature!

Quote from: EmeraldWind on April 21, 2011, 11:33:23 pm

In some variations of the kappa story, the plate is actually a bowl-shaped indent on the top of their head. Which makes for another possible weakness, certain parts of the body on the creature can be an Achilles's Heel weakness.

For example, a particular Night Creature may have a tail. The creature cutting off the tail will weaken the creature. In the case of a spouse, removing said tail could restore them to their original form.

I like idea of the possible random weaknesses as like Kohaku pointed out, the kind of folk creatures that Night Creatures are based on have this tendency and at times can be funny in a Nightmare Retardant kind-of-way (which makes sense, as the most likely reason for the weird or funny weaknesses might have be to make the monster less scary).

Quote from: Jeoshua on April 21, 2011, 07:34:55 pm

If randomly generated creatures end up having various weaknesses to materials or poisons, it could be easilly handled by having to learn the Legends about those creatures.

Talking with certain individuals about those Night Creatures would yield information about them, their strengths and weaknesses.  Then you could look around in Legends mode and basically get a list of what weaknesses various creatures have for that world generation.

Adventurer: "What do you know of the beasts that are plaguing your town?"
Peasant: Leans in close
Peasant: "They say that the Horned Woman can't stand the sight of Diamonds."
Peasant: "But maybe that's just an old wives tale."

Quote from: NW_Kohaku on April 22, 2011, 12:10:59 am

While we're on the topic of weaknesses, though, might as well share some more myth...

Hercules fought two very notable creatures as part of his trials - the Hydra and the Nemian Lion. 

Although the hydra is already in the game, a part of the myth that isn't already a part of the game is that the hydra had poisonous blood and heads that would regrow as he cut them off.  Hercules "failed" the trial of the hydra because he had to get advice for how to defeat the hydra (cauterizing the wound with fire to prevent the head from regrowing), but after defeating the hydra, he put his arrows in the blood of the hydra, and used those as poison arrows in his subsequent adventures.

There was also the Nemian Lion, whose hide was essentially impervious to harm.  Basically similar to having adamantine skin, the lion could not be harmed by conventional kinetic attack... through its hide.  Some tellings of the myth state the weakness of the lion was to attack its open mouth, and crack the skull from the inside, where its hide did not protect it.  (Which sounds a lot like a video game boss...  "Who would have thought that the boss's only weakness was its giant, glowing red eye?")  Hercules then hollowed the lion out, and used its hide as a cloak as a sort of armor.

Also, since I was trying to think of "alternate" type of monster, Celtic folktales have the Leanan Sidhe (or some variant spelling thereof).  Sidhe are a general class of fairies in Celtic myth, but the Leanen Sidhe takes the form of beautiful women who act like greek muses - inspiring artists and craftsmen, but at the same time, draining away portions of their life as they pour it into their work. 

Some versions of the myth have them feeding off of artistry, and encourage artists to literally put their souls onto their canvas, so that they can feed off them.  Other versions have them as something like a succubus.  Other versions just play the whole thing as a metaphor for romance in general, and say that any woman can take the aspect of a Leanan Sidhe, and if your love is unrequited, you become her slave, and if you resist her, and her love is unrequited, she becomes your slave.

And of course, there are the potentially beneficial kind of monster, like the Russian Domovoi, or its Japanese counterpart, the Zashiki-Warashi.  These are creatures that like to live in people's houses, but hide.  As long as they are living with you, they bring your family good fortune, but if they ever leave, it will fall immediately to ruin.  As such, if you have one of those, you have to find ways to ensure it can't ever leave, even if that means trying to find a way to cage it.  Domovoi are generally entirely benign, unless angered, although Zashiki-Warashi are child-like and enjoy pranks.

When you get onto Japanese stuff, though, they have entirely crazy monsters, like Tenjoname, the ceiling-licker.  Apparently a mythological rationalization for water damage to ceilings, the tenjoname literally is a creature that wants to break into your house in the middle of the night to lick your ceiling (and do nothing else), leaving a slobber stain on it.

I'd honestly like to see some more of the utterly bizarre-but-benign magical creatures out there.

Quote from: Kiktamo on April 22, 2011, 12:31:22 pm

Simply being able to use the power of a god from the world generated to protect yourself from certain creatures would be an interesting idea. On another note it might be interesting to be able to bribe some creatures to leave you alone but also potentially protect you from other creatures maybe of the same kind or maybe just weaker creatures. Being able to borrow the powers of other creatures to protect yourself would certainly be an interesting addition.

That and I can imagine an awesome story of a hero obtaining power from a night creature or megabeast early on to proterct them then when they obtain enough of there own power coming back to slay the creature.

Quote from: NW_Kohaku on April 23, 2011, 03:12:07 pm

Quote from: Jiri Petru on April 23, 2011, 01:46:17 pm

Well, monsters in Dwarf Fortress are rare. In generic roguelike, you kill dozens of monsters per minute. In Dwarf Fortress, you spend a lot of time wandering from town to town and finding a monster's lair and then killing one monster. They are so uncommon they could very well all have distinct disadvantages without you having to have a bloated inventory.

In fact, anything that makes monsters a bit more different from a random goblin is good.

Yes, if you have to be specifically hunting for a monster, or know that only 3 particular night creatures are in the area, you can stock up on that one town's particular creature's weaknesses at the local shops, rather than knowing that horned hags are vulnerable to shark leather bags, and carrying one around everywhere after you've left the only town near one (or killed the last of the horned hags) . 

Also,

Quote from: Willfor on April 23, 2011, 11:37:21 am

As for my own take, I think weaknesses would be fun as long as one thought is borne in mind: With enough firepower, anything should be removed from the material world. If it is weak against garlic, and I have garlic, cool. If it's weak against garlic, and I have an axe, I should be able to have a shot at mangling it until it's no longer able to physically exist.

I definitely agree with this.

Even things like trolls that regenerate unless you kill them with fire or acid should eventually stop regenerating if you chop it into kindling and then mash the kindling into paste enough times.  EVENTUALLY, its energy supply or food supply or whatever will run out, and it should just plain starve to death after you keep mashing it into a finer and finer paste faster than it can heal.

Quote from: G-Flex on April 23, 2011, 04:47:24 pm

Quote from: de5me7 on April 23, 2011, 04:36:46 pm

An interesting weakness for a monster might be to be beaten with part of its own anatomy.

This is actually more likely and reasonable than you might think. For instance, imagine a creature with extremely tough skin, but also extremely sharp claws capable of piercing that skin better than your own weapon. Alternatively, imagine stinging a giant scorpion with its own stinger.

Quote from: Totaku on April 27, 2011, 01:30:24 pm

You know the idea of a night creature feeding off of an emotion would be very amusing. In fact that would be something I'd want to see happen! Cause if there were such night creatures like for example "Feed off of scaring people by surprising them" I could see a whole lot of interesting ideas that could come together for new night creatures.

One case can be the "Dream Eater" a japanese mythical creature that's sort of like a dream catcher, that generally eats peoples dreams (usually nightmares from what I remember). This is the kind of stuff fantasy is made for!

Please make this possible Toady!

Whew, that was a lot of quotes.

By the by, I searched for existing night creatures or strange monster topics, and the only threads I got were about specific types of creatures, like dragons or golems, the Underground Diversity thread (already implemented), and a thread that was on this exact topic whose OP was edited to say "Screw it, someone else start a new topic."  So I figured I would.

Title: Re: Strange Creatures and Myth
Post by: freeformschooler on April 27, 2011, 02:53:22 pm

I'm going to be the first one that says it: randomly generated undead/other creatures that kill not to feed, but to equip themselves with the weapons and armor of their prey. They're just intelligent enough to see that power comes in belongings. Just to provide a contrast to the generalized "hoarder" night creatures we have now.

Title: Re: Strange Creatures and Myth
Post by: Vactor on April 27, 2011, 03:05:14 pm

I'll be bold and suggest a multi-tile creature:

An immobile creature that grows into adjacent tiles, it would work like creatures do now, leaving the tile passable to crawling, and able to attack adjacent squares.

I would imagine this being some kind of disease (possibly from forgotten beasts) that causes the body of the deceased to continue to grow and spread like an undead moss.  It could have randomized body parts from its  hosts body type, with procedurally generated connectivity.

Imagine a catacomb passageway with gnarled arms hanging from the walls and ceiling, assorted eyes and mouths and other parts scatter across its surface.  If you wanted to get through you could make a run for it, or start hacking off limbs to clear a way.

Title: Re: Strange Creatures and Myth
Post by: EmperorNuthulu on April 27, 2011, 03:17:10 pm

Quote from: Vactor on April 27, 2011, 03:05:14 pm

I'll be bold and suggest a multi-tile creature:

An immobile creature that grows into adjacent tiles, it would work like creatures do now, leaving the tile passable to crawling, and able to attack adjacent squares.

I would imagine this being some kind of disease (possibly from forgotten beasts) that causes the body of the deceased to continue to grow and spread like an undead moss.  It could have randomized body parts from its  hosts body type, with procedurally generated connectivity.

Imagine a catacomb passageway with gnarled arms hanging from the walls and ceiling, assorted eyes and mouths and other parts scatter across its surface.  If you wanted to get through you could make a run for it, or start hacking off limbs to clear a way.

That sounds absolutely horrific and terrifying...

It probably would fit into dwarf fortress though, considering the other horrors we have.

Also do we know if these sewers will have running water in them? if so then we could have something like swimming blobs of filth that ambush you and drag you under water.

Title: Re: Strange Creatures and Myth
Post by: loose nut on April 27, 2011, 05:18:41 pm

This is more modern and less mythological, but what about Alien style parasites whose larval form eats a living host? Or one who paralyses the host and takes them back to their lair first, like a wasp?

More broadly, what about creatures with multi-stage life cycles?

Title: Re: Strange Creatures and Myth
Post by: Fieari on April 27, 2011, 05:23:38 pm

I am reminded of "firebirds"* in Dave Duncan's "Lord of the Fire Lands".  In that, firebirds are a cross between earth and fire elementals mixed with an animal of the wizard's choice.  It's utterly invincible to anything but water, and incapable of seeing even large quantities of the stuff.  You basically have to lure it into the ocean to kill it.

That's a good example of the "Unable to see" style weakness, I think.

*Not always a bird

Title: Re: Strange Creatures and Myth
Post by: Vactor on April 27, 2011, 06:06:47 pm

Quote from: EmperorNuthulu on April 27, 2011, 03:17:10 pm

Quote from: Vactor on April 27, 2011, 03:05:14 pm

I'll be bold and suggest a multi-tile creature:

An immobile creature that grows into adjacent tiles, it would work like creatures do now, leaving the tile passable to crawling, and able to attack adjacent squares.

I would imagine this being some kind of disease (possibly from forgotten beasts) that causes the body of the deceased to continue to grow and spread like an undead moss.  It could have randomized body parts from its  hosts body type, with procedurally generated connectivity.

Imagine a catacomb passageway with gnarled arms hanging from the walls and ceiling, assorted eyes and mouths and other parts scatter across its surface.  If you wanted to get through you could make a run for it, or start hacking off limbs to clear a way.

That sounds absolutely horrific and terrifying...

It probably would fit into dwarf fortress though, considering the other horrors we have.

Also do we know if these sewers will have running water in them? if so then we could have something like swimming blobs of filth that ambush you and drag you under water.

Just as a follow up to this, i do think this would be the easiest type of multi-tile creature to implement, as it could effectively be an individual immobile creature in each square, each independently killable.  This could also show up in fortress mode, where a catacomb that has fallen into disuse could become infested. (could be sphere/biome specific, or as a result of forgotten beast effects) It could also be a source of miasma.

Title: Re: Strange Creatures and Myth
Post by: harborpirate on April 27, 2011, 06:07:47 pm

Creatures that turn things to stone and/or metal, and/or creatures that eat [loose] stone and/or metal would be interesting additions (if they aren't already included, I'm not too familiar with the entire roster of monsters and monster powers, since I mostly play fortress mode and build megaprojects).

Imagine coming across what appears to be a half eaten stone statue of a dwarf, that turns out to be the corpse of an ancient dwarf turned to stone long ago.

Or a creature that attacks you in adventurer mode, but only because it wants to eat your sword (and not necessarily you).

Title: Re: Strange Creatures and Myth
Post by: loose nut on April 27, 2011, 07:18:24 pm

Monsters that appoint themselves guardians of a wood, a river, a battlefield, a vein of ore, an artifact.

Monsters, or crazy hermits, or cults!

Title: Re: Strange Creatures and Myth
Post by: Acanthus117 on April 27, 2011, 08:50:55 pm

Quote from: loose nut on April 27, 2011, 07:18:24 pm

Monsters that appoint themselves guardians of a wood, a river, a battlefield, a vein of ore, an artifact.

I like this idea. Imagine if in worldgen some epic hero is slain and they make a temple for him, and then a random spirit thing manifests as the 'protector' of the temple. Due to the fact that the hero was a really cool guy and everyone liked him and stuff, there'll be loot in that temple to sell/use.

Then, the civ that made the temple crumbles, leaving the temple (and its protector spirit monster) relatively unscathed.

Hundreds of years later, a wandering mercenary hears tales of the haunted temple filled with gold...

Quote from: Vactor on April 27, 2011, 06:06:47 pm

Quote from: EmperorNuthulu on April 27, 2011, 03:17:10 pm

Quote from: Vactor on April 27, 2011, 03:05:14 pm

I'll be bold and suggest a multi-tile creature:

An immobile creature that grows into adjacent tiles, it would work like creatures do now, leaving the tile passable to crawling, and able to attack adjacent squares.

I would imagine this being some kind of disease (possibly from forgotten beasts) that causes the body of the deceased to continue to grow and spread like an undead moss.  It could have randomized body parts from its  hosts body type, with procedurally generated connectivity.

Imagine a catacomb passageway with gnarled arms hanging from the walls and ceiling, assorted eyes and mouths and other parts scatter across its surface.  If you wanted to get through you could make a run for it, or start hacking off limbs to clear a way.

That sounds absolutely horrific and terrifying...

It probably would fit into dwarf fortress though, considering the other horrors we have.

Also do we know if these sewers will have running water in them? if so then we could have something like swimming blobs of filth that ambush you and drag you under water.

Just as a follow up to this, i do think this would be the easiest type of multi-tile creature to implement, as it could effectively be an individual immobile creature in each square, each independently killable.  This could also show up in fortress mode, where a catacomb that has fallen into disuse could become infested. (could be sphere/biome specific, or as a result of forgotten beast effects) It could also be a source of miasma.

I love this idea. It fits into the whole feel of DF, and who wouldn't want to see tons of disembodied eyes and arms and stuff?

Title: Re: Strange Creatures and Myth
Post by: Ale and Axes on April 27, 2011, 09:31:29 pm

Shape-shifting is quite a common mythical monster trait. Vampires turning into bats or mist, Ghouls can take the form of hyenas in their original Arabian myths. There's a German zombie called a Nachzehrer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nachzehrer) that can take the form of a pig.

Title: Re: Strange Creatures and Myth
Post by: Light forger on April 28, 2011, 12:01:53 am

"A strange creature struggles towards a man in the distance it is flayed and mutilated. It does not breath but there are gasps of pain as it walks looking at the horror-stuck human with great loathing in it's eyes it bows to hims and says "We will honorably duel for your fate." The man draws a small dirks as it raises a blood-stained longsword of a ancient make and with a few clear strikes slays the man as he falls to the ground and his blood covers the ground it seems almost sad."


Razzorth or Damned Ones are soldiers of old who did terrible deeds in combat battle failing to honor those who they had slain the god of combat and honor cursed to be flayed and mutilated like there victims. To end the curse they must do honorable combat with soldiers until one beats them honorably. They are know to haunt catacombs.


Notes: Damned Ones have to honor ALL requests so if you are on a quest you can make it wait for you to finish before it can attack you. When formals greetings for cultures are made it will have to honor them too.They are needless to say very patience and will let you go hoping you will grow strong enough to end there suffering.  There weapons are masterwork as even more of a curse as they can't let someone kill them and can't use another weapon this dooms many that could have killed them to there deaths. They both hate and love the as living they can end there curse but they are free to be unhonorable and die.

       

Title: Re: Strange Creatures and Myth
Post by: Geneoce on April 28, 2011, 12:51:06 am

On the subject of multitile "creatures" some form of elven M.A.D spell/curse/whatever would be pretty cool.

Thinking something along the lines of an elven retreat gets torched by humans to make room for expansion, then a few years later toxic vines/plants/fungi bloom in the area. Something akin to a badass, maleviolent, semi-intelligent version of cordyceps that enslaves the inhabitants or feeds off them.

I can imagine an overgrown village full of plant-infested human parodies of elves slaying all intruders into this new "forest"

It would have to be civ dependant though, like maybe just for more fanatic/corrupt version of elves or something.

Title: Re: Strange Creatures and Myth
Post by: Fidna on April 28, 2011, 06:13:20 am

I'd like to see some things more akin to traditional Gaelic and some Brythonic faeries. They were often not so much outright malicious (though they often could be) so much as possessed of a very warped sense of ethics that lacked the remotest sense of empathy for others. And a lot of them just looked weird. There's a Scottish creature that had a head the size of a whale on a man's body, with translucent skin and an enormous grin. He'd wander up on beaches sometimes and consume people with his massive maw. In one story, a priest gets it to stop by offering him hospitality (he gave him a cask of wine), and asked why it did such awful things. "I'm hungry." Then it went back into the sea. Some are pretty nebulous creatures, too. Like a kind of giant hairy man in some Manx and Scottish myths is seen, sometimes, but disappears into fog, and leaves a person with a sense of unnatural dread that drives a person mad with terror, often to the point of suicide. Hill-women were some kind of vampire like being that moved in groups. One would convince a lone traveler they needed assistance. If they followed, they'd be torn limb from limb by the rest of the group and their blood consumed from the wounds, and the creatures were revealed to be the dessicated phantoms of deceased women. I use these specific examples because they all had the same severe weakness to worked iron. Touching it would cause them to die. I find it funny because it's such a plain metal. I'd like some very bizarre, dangerous, or just gross things that could die by such bizarrely simple means (given, at least in said cultures, iron wasn't exceedingly hard to come by; considering the Gaels' view of how their people came to be, with invading Ireland and all with superior weapons, it was probably just a commentary on that, but it still lead to some hilarious and weird myths).

I'd really like to see catacombs and such offering creatures specific to the cultures that built them. Think of a civilization resembling the old Norse peoples; tombs could sometimes be guarded by something akin to a draugr in certain cases. But similar beings don't exist in all other mythologies. It'd be a good chance for some dynamism culturally, giving a region more direct character in relationship to the peoples who live in it. It'd really be nice when cultures are themselves more dynamic.

Title: Re: Strange Creatures and Myth
Post by: Vorthon on April 28, 2011, 07:57:43 am

Hey, NW_Kohaku, that was my thread you found, wasn't it?

I was having some trouble with formatting. (My carefully formatted summary/list kept getting screwed up by the forum. >.<)

Also, Domovoi. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domovoy)

Title: Re: Strange Creatures and Myth
Post by: Buzzing_Beard on April 28, 2011, 09:46:10 am

A giant ground dwelling miner bee (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3219/2442651810_aab840a149_o.jpg) (stingless and solitary, but it can fly and dig!).
(http://www.lawnsmith.co.uk/SharedApps/displayimage.php?DSID=7&BLOBID=196)
Or, taking it to another level, the giant nomada bee (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61528384@N04/5615535502/sizes/z/in/photostream/) that steals its lunch money (kleptoparasitic of miner bees).

Title: Re: Strange Creatures and Myth
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 28, 2011, 11:23:58 am

Maybe I should be a little more specific on this, though...

I mean pseudo-sentient that behave differently.  The purpose is to have creatures with bizarre goals or behaviors.

Domovoi, which are spirits of domesticity, functionally, and are beneficial to families that can manage to keep one in the house, even though it looks like a cross between a wizened old man and a yeti is a good example of this.

Miner bees, which are real-life creatures, and hence, not pseudo-sentient monsters at all. 

The firebirds are just creatures with different kinds of bodies, but you aren't explaining anything different in how they actually behave.

The multi-tile monster sounds most like being a living weapon trap, which is an interesting concept, but these things are not really the purpose of this thread.

Like the domovoi, these don't all have to be necessarily hostile.  Or at least, not directly hostile. 

In other words, this:

Quote from: Fidna on April 28, 2011, 06:13:20 am

I'd like to see some things more akin to traditional Gaelic and some Brythonic faeries. They were often not so much outright malicious (though they often could be) so much as possessed of a very warped sense of ethics that lacked the remotest sense of empathy for others. And a lot of them just looked weird. There's a Scottish creature that had a head the size of a whale on a man's body, with translucent skin and an enormous grin. He'd wander up on beaches sometimes and consume people with his massive maw. In one story, a priest gets it to stop by offering him hospitality (he gave him a cask of wine), and asked why it did such awful things. "I'm hungry." Then it went back into the sea. Some are pretty nebulous creatures, too. Like a kind of giant hairy man in some Manx and Scottish myths is seen, sometimes, but disappears into fog, and leaves a person with a sense of unnatural dread that drives a person mad with terror, often to the point of suicide. Hill-women were some kind of vampire like being that moved in groups. One would convince a lone traveler they needed assistance. If they followed, they'd be torn limb from limb by the rest of the group and their blood consumed from the wounds, and the creatures were revealed to be the dessicated phantoms of deceased women. I use these specific examples because they all had the same severe weakness to worked iron. Touching it would cause them to die. I find it funny because it's such a plain metal. I'd like some very bizarre, dangerous, or just gross things that could die by such bizarrely simple means (given, at least in said cultures, iron wasn't exceedingly hard to come by; considering the Gaels' view of how their people came to be, with invading Ireland and all with superior weapons, it was probably just a commentary on that, but it still lead to some hilarious and weird myths).

I'd really like to see catacombs and such offering creatures specific to the cultures that built them. Think of a civilization resembling the old Norse peoples; tombs could sometimes be guarded by something akin to a draugr in certain cases. But similar beings don't exist in all other mythologies. It'd be a good chance for some dynamism culturally, giving a region more direct character in relationship to the peoples who live in it. It'd really be nice when cultures are themselves more dynamic.

You might also want to take a peak at White Wolf's "Changeling" games...  Ogres are creatures that typically like eating human flesh and grinding bones to make their bread the more "fae", and less "human" they become, but even then, they are creatures you can actually talk to and bargain with... so long as you can offer them something they want more than eating your flesh. 

Others, like Fairest, have supernatural powers of manipulation and beauty, and just enjoy ruining people's lives through mind control for the sheer shits and giggles of the power trip.

Title: Re: Strange Creatures and Myth
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 28, 2011, 11:24:31 am

I mentioned this earlier, but...

I'm thinking of something like the Leannan Sidhe from Celtic myth can be something almost a cross between a Greek muse and a succubus-like creature.  They are capable of appearing as beautiful to anyone, potentially through outright glamour or mind-control, and feed upon the life-force of those that fall in love with them.  They prefer artists or poets, and act as inspiration, lending them great success in their art and fame and fortune, but at the cost of draining their lives so that those affected by the Leannan Sidhe live short, but very happy lives.

They are sentient, capable of passing themselves off as human, can live in cities almost Mascarade-style, and potentially even capable of convincing others around them, or even their own victims that it's worth the price to live fast, die young, and leave a soul-drained corpse.

Title: Re: Strange Creatures and Myth
Post by: Vorthon on April 28, 2011, 11:31:36 am

This is messed up: Krasue (http://www.monstropedia.org/index.php?title=Krasue)

Title: Re: Strange Creatures and Myth
Post by: flieroflight on April 28, 2011, 11:39:33 am

following on from the post near the beginning with multi-tile creatues, i would love to see that take th form of say, a kraken living in a sewer, its main body is in the water and it spawns tentacles to hit you with.

also, in evil areas in the catcombs, how about light fearing creatures- if you have a torch they will back away, but if it goes out...

I would actually like something like an ambush creature- it appears as say, a strange mossy substance o the passage, and when you reach a ertain distance it opens eyes, spawns mouths, clwas, etc to attack with.

Title: Re: Strange Creatures and Myth
Post by: jseah on April 28, 2011, 11:52:58 am

Quote from: NW_Kohaku on April 28, 2011, 11:23:58 am

Maybe I should be a little more specific on this, though...

I mean pseudo-sentient that behave differently.  The purpose is to have creatures with bizarre goals or behaviors.

Procedurally generated "fae" can be totally unfathomable. 
That is really easy enough by scrambling their AI. 

Getting one that you can tell a story about, and actually come to understand, is far harder.  Since any randomly generated AI will be totally alien in the way that fae and other mythical creatures aren't. 

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: Ahrimahn on April 28, 2011, 12:25:48 pm

Underground civ's that can hold teritory. Maybe a drow inspired race that order you to cut down more trees or else piss them off. Maybe a Skaven inspired race of ratmen. Orcs possibly.

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: Neonivek on April 28, 2011, 12:29:41 pm

Specifically the monsters that an entirely underground race would create wouldn't be that unknown.

Remember that a lot of monsters fit into three categories
1) Alegory/Fable: Monsters created to play upon the weaknesses of others
2) Fears: Fears brought to life. Afraid of being murdered in a small urban town? Werewolves
3) Natural Occurances: Monsters created to explain natural occurances.

I'd fully expect Dwarves to be afraid of monsters who breathe poisonous gases or who pass through stone as easily as a cart moves through a tunnel.

Basically ask yourself: What would a miner be afraid of?

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: Vorthon on April 28, 2011, 12:30:54 pm

Water.

And Magma.

And sunlight.

(Only being semi-serious here.)

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: Neonivek on April 28, 2011, 12:35:58 pm

Dwarves being afraid, subconsciously, of bright light makes sense.

Creatures who shine like the sun and make dwarves fall over in sickly convulsions, or just make dwarves outright deathly ill, would make sense.

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: FallingWhale on April 28, 2011, 12:37:26 pm

I'd like to see creatures with penchants for a given body part who rip that part off and run.
That could be pinkies or (if your unlucky) livers and hearts.

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 28, 2011, 12:37:43 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on April 28, 2011, 12:35:58 pm

Dwarves being afraid, subconsciously, of bright light makes sense.

Creatures who shine like the sun and make dwarves fall over in sickly convulsions, or just make dwarves outright deathly ill, would make sense.

Then why do they pay so much for Sun Berries and Sunshine?

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: Vorthon on April 28, 2011, 12:39:01 pm

I just got a mental image of a dwarf miner accidentally tunneling into a chamber and being blinded by some kind of glowing creature...

Also,

Quote from: FallingWhale on April 28, 2011, 12:37:26 pm

I'd like to see creatures with penchants for a given body part who rip that part off and run.
That could be pinkies or (if your unlucky) livers and hearts.

How do you rip off somebody's liver? O_O

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: Neonivek on April 28, 2011, 12:39:49 pm

Quote

Then why do they pay so much for Sun Berries and Sunshine?

Because it is an alcohol they don't have access to and cannot grow.

Though imagine if there is an urban legend where dwarves who drink a lot of Sunshine get stalked by the sunlight stalker.

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: Vorthon on April 28, 2011, 12:40:53 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on April 28, 2011, 12:39:49 pm

Quote

Then why do they pay so much for Sun Berries and Sunshine?

Because it is an alcohol they don't have access to and cannot grow.

Though imagine if there is an urban legend where dwarves who drink a lot of Sunshine get stalked by the sunlight stalker.

Or, turns into a sunlight stalker...

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: FallingWhale on April 28, 2011, 12:43:21 pm

Quote from: Vorthon on April 28, 2011, 12:39:01 pm

How do you rip off somebody's liver? O_O

Skill, leverage and most importantly a very large hole in the torso.

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: Vorthon on April 28, 2011, 12:44:20 pm

Quote from: FallingWhale on April 28, 2011, 12:43:21 pm

Quote from: Vorthon on April 28, 2011, 12:39:01 pm

How do you rip off somebody's liver? O_O

Skill, leverage and most importantly a very large hole in the torso.

I am considering sigging this...

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: Ahrimahn on April 28, 2011, 12:45:44 pm

Quote from: Vorthon on April 28, 2011, 12:39:01 pm

I just got a mental image of a dwarf miner accidentally tunneling into a chamber and being blinded by some kind of glowing creature...

Also,

Quote from: FallingWhale on April 28, 2011, 12:37:26 pm

I'd like to see creatures with penchants for a given body part who rip that part off and run.
That could be pinkies or (if your unlucky) livers and hearts.

How do you rip off somebody's liver? O_O

You put your hand over the skin over liver grab rip. Ive seen the cut of Dolomite where Dolomite rips out Willy Greens liver.

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 28, 2011, 12:49:20 pm

Quote from: Vorthon on April 28, 2011, 12:39:01 pm

Quote from: FallingWhale on April 28, 2011, 12:37:26 pm

I'd like to see creatures with penchants for a given body part who rip that part off and run.
That could be pinkies or (if your unlucky) livers and hearts.

How do you rip off somebody's liver? O_O

Kappa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_(folklore)), one of the creatures I mentioned in the FoTF thread, and quoted in the OP, like to eat livers or intestines or souls or shirikodama, depending on the version of the myth, through either sucking them through the belly button, or through the *ahem* lower holes. 

Fortunately, however, they like cucumbers much more than human livers, so you can bribe them with cucumbers into leaving you alone, or even helping you if they feel like it and you have enough cucumbers.

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: RenoFox on April 28, 2011, 01:19:13 pm

Undead from spesific kind of deaths would make a replenishing source of properly motivated monsters too. For example, if monsters rose from people who suffocated in full leather outfits, the monsters would then try to strangle people wearing full leather while ignoring those incompatible with its requirements.

Monsters assembled with severed bodyparts would most likely numerous enough to form larger hives into sites of bloodshed. Dark caverns under bloody battlefields would be a fit premise for longer adventures of cleansing the area from evil. Somehow I'm picturing an ant queen-like entity protected by her frankenstein-esque drones along this one.

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 28, 2011, 01:52:12 pm

I'm dusting off my old copy of Bullfinch's Mythology (Greek and Norse myth), but for now, I had Royall Tyler's Japanese Tales, and started looking through the Table of Contents for a good myth.

A title struck me:

"A Toad To Be Reckoned With."

I won't copy the whole tale, since it doesn't really involve the toad past a certain point.

"Once a big toad lived in the so-called Guards' Gate into the palace compound and used to trip people up.  Every evening at twilight it would come out and sit there looking like a low rock. Now one heading in toward the palace would fail to step on it and fall flat, as the toad hopped off into the gloom.  The victim might learn his lesson and look out next time, but for some reason he would always step on the toad again anyway and take the same tumble."

The story goes on about a fool who is a scholar at the nearby university who wants to beat the toad, and so noisily attacks a rock he mistakes for the toad until the guards come and kick him out.

"The servants lunged at him and chased him away.  As he fled down the avenue outside, he fell flat and scraped his face all bloody, but he picked himself up and ran on, hiding his face behind his sleeve, till he was finally lost."

Tricky toad...

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: FGK dwarf on April 28, 2011, 02:57:24 pm

Quote from: RenoFox on April 28, 2011, 01:19:13 pm

Undead from spesific kind of deaths would make a replenishing source of properly motivated monsters too. For example, if monsters rose from people who suffocated in full leather outfits, the monsters would then try to strangle people wearing full leather while ignoring those incompatible with its requirements.

Monsters assembled with severed bodyparts would most likely numerous enough to form larger hives into sites of bloodshed. Dark caverns under bloody battlefields would be a fit premise for longer adventures of cleansing the area from evil. Somehow I'm picturing an ant queen-like entity protected by her frankenstein-esque drones along this one.

In Buddhist thought there's the idea of the Hungry Ghost. People who have a great craving for something in life will be reborn as one, wandering the Earth as a spirit with even greater desire but often no means of fulfilling it. So if Urist McGhost really really liked microcline in life, he might come back to haunt the fortress as a spirit with an insatiable desire for microcline. The ghost could be pacified by offering microcline sacrifices, building microcline altars surrounded by microcline statues and adorned with hanging rings of microcline, etc... Or maybe he could be the driving force behind a possession mood.

Some examples from Greek mythology:

• The Harpies, sent to torment the impious Phineas by stealing his food whenever he sat down to a meal.
• Ants that dig up gold (mentioned in Herodotus). I don't think they actually did anything with it, they just dug it up as waste when they excavated their nests.
• The Furies, sent to torment evildoers.
• Bandits such as Procrustes and Sinis with rather imaginative methods of killing their victims.

Finally, the Egyptian Book of the Dead describes many Underworld creatures that guarded gateways and passages, and could be pacified with the correct spells. Actually they sound rather familiar...

Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_Book_of_the_Dead

The path to the afterlife as laid out in the Book of the Dead was a difficult one. The deceased was required to pass a series of gates, caverns and mounds guarded by supernatural creatures. These terrifying entities were armed with enormous knives and are illustrated in grotesque forms, typically as human figures with the heads of animals or combinations of different ferocious beasts...

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: Scaraban on April 28, 2011, 03:18:50 pm

obviously a DF reference...
>.>
<.<
Watching...

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: Ahrimahn on April 28, 2011, 03:48:00 pm

Quote from: FGK dwarf on April 28, 2011, 02:57:24 pm

• Ants that dig up gold (mentioned in Herodotus). I don't think they actually did anything with it, they just dug it up as waste when they excavated their nests.

that would be Antmen they are already in the game.

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: Vercingetorix on April 28, 2011, 05:51:00 pm

I've always found the redcap to be an interesting supernatural creature, especially since it's a castle-specific monster who murders travelers in order to keep itself alive.  Abandoned human castles where evil acts occurred, those located in or near evil regions or alternatively abandoned goblin citadels would all be potential sites where they could reside.  Furthermore, they don't really have a clear origin story so there's plenty of room for in-game myth and legend to cloud their history.

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: Vattic on April 28, 2011, 08:31:03 pm

Creatures that look like other things until you get too close. I can think of a few examples. A tree stump with a rabbit on it which eats anyone who strays to close. What looks like a dead horse floating just under the surface of some still water which pulls people under and drowns them. A chest with a set of teeth. The important thing would be that if you look at them in game they should display as their disguises. In adventure mode it could roll against your perception and/or other stats and maybe reveal what it really is.

More detailed ghost behaviour for things like the Headless Horseman. Both the man and his horse are one ghost with two bodies which can separate from one another. Wanting to decapitate people because he was decapitated. So ghosts with their behaviour dictated by their death in more detail than currently.

A giant who dyes his hat red with the blood of his victims. Similar to grinding bones to make bread.

Creatures that abhor violence and will guard certain areas, buildings, people, and groups attacking any aggressors. Sneaking into a temple complex full of druids unable to draw your weapon because of a guardian spirit who will crush you if you even think about it. Could be interesting.

Music could be an interesting way to interact with strange creatures. Some could be attracted or repelled. Some could get emotional: happy, sad, scared, angry. It could even work as a weakness and turn them to stone or similar. Specific tunes could be learnt which have specific effects on specific creatures. While playing the guitar in he forest at night around a camp fire you can sometimes see strange shambling beasts with glowing eyes moving between the trees but keeping their distance.

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: Ahrimahn on April 28, 2011, 11:54:12 pm

You dont need to draw your weapons o kill anyone all you need is the ability to pinch.

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: Mel_Vixen on April 29, 2011, 07:50:57 am

Vattic actually the horseman decaping people is a new thing which was introduced in the 19th century. Prior to that the horsemans touch would murder your right on the spot or after some days. Also his horse was often headless and starved and not a hellish aberration. Our local horseman is even a "undertaker" complete with a waggon etc. . 

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: Vorthon on April 29, 2011, 07:59:19 am

Dullahan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dullahan)

Essentially a cross between the headless horseman and the grim reaper. In this case, it carries its head under one arm and wields a whip made from a human spine. And, to top it all off, this thing is a type of fairy. Just goes to show that the current pop-culture idea of a fairy has been heavily sanitized.

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: Fidna on April 29, 2011, 08:57:05 am

The dullahan is actually much more complex than that lets on, with far more myths. Like in the islands in the west of Ireland, sometimes he doesn't even have a horse or carriage, but a boat made of human remains, often an old style coracle with human skin stretched over bones used to make the frame. In some cases he carries a sword or spear made of glass, gems, or mist instead of a whip of bone (that part was likely introduced during the Cambro-Norman Invasion; there were also Bretonic mercenaries and they had long believed in a similar being that carried a spine-whip), which kept with a general belief that faeries and their servants (more on that in a second) didn't touch worked iron for fear it'd kill them.

Also, if he's really a 'faerie', in the modern sense or not isn't known. Banshee comes from two words meaning 'faerie woman', but they're ghosts of murdered mortal women (and can be good or bad, depending on the conditions of her murder; if a family tried to defend her under the codes of hospitality, she sings sweetly as the person dies to calm them and their family, where as the shrieking and terror goes to the murderer's family). Most faeries were made as faeries (in very specific ways; faeries are seriously supposed to be sterile under most conditions, as it was believed immortality brought sterility, and the only way around it was very elaborate breeding conditions). The dullahan in some stories is simply a cruel dead man who faeries stole the soul of, or who gave them his soul for some reason, and pressed into their service. He's not a faerie himself, in a strict sense, but one of their servants, in that view. In others, he really is one, but he enjoys taking on a terrifying form because he actively hates mortal men and wants to shock and disgust them into leaving him alone.

After fellows like that, though, you have entirely boring faeries. Like leprechauns. They're much more interesting than people would think, in the historic mythopoetic view, while still being dreadfully dull for supernatural creatures. They don't really like other faeries (leprechauns have rather human-like ethical views in a lot of stories, if still a bit odd or off), they're indifferent, usually, toward people (unless doing business with them, or, in the form of the drunken clurichaun, given wine and beer, at which point they love them), and they just want to make a craft (in later stories, shoes, but that was probably from Germanic influence that it became so popular, not that they didn't ever make shoes before, but it wasn't so strictly associated). They'd make anything, but if it was a pair of things, they'd only ever make one and refer you to a relation to make the other for some reason. Often they just seemed to be little angry old men who didn't die and possessed magic powers who liked to make things of impossible quality or from materials that should work (one story has a cloak made from carbuncle gems that is soft to the wearer, but anyone striking him finds it impossible to break through, and it allowed the buyer to vanish from the sight of even faeries and ghosts). Though they could get very violent if not paid. It's where the whole obsession with gold thing comes from; Gaels didn't actually use coins, save for ring money (a currency which was constantly reappraised whenever used, having no standard value), for a long time, except for trade with foreigners. They bartered instead with mixtures of ring money and goods.

Leprechauns would demand odd goods though. They'd ask for normal things, like maybe a valuable ring or a necklace made of gold or silver, but then they'd ask for everything from some hair or part of a finger nail, to a cup of horse blood or your own blood, and you weren't allowed to ask what for (it violated rules of hospitable trade, and that would really tick them off; it wasn't your right to know what a person wanted an item for in trade). In that sense, back to DF, it would be interesting to have rather dull, relatively hospitable spirits and creatures who are polite to a point, may provide a service of some kind, but have bizarre demands and rules about what is polite or not to them. What may seem a completely normal question may infuriate them to the point of abandoning you while stealing things, injuring you, stealing less tangible things like memories, or outright attempting to kill you through brute force or their powers. At the same time, they may become incredibly pliable if given something easily attainable (in this example, booze), though they'd never tell you that; such creatures in myths tend to have an odd amount of presumption and simply expect you to know what they like or not, even if those things are bizarre or so simplistic no human being would readily consider them.

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: Neonivek on April 29, 2011, 11:27:06 am

Quote from: RenoFox on April 28, 2011, 01:19:13 pm

Undead from spesific kind of deaths would make a replenishing source of properly motivated monsters too. For example, if monsters rose from people who suffocated in full leather outfits, the monsters would then try to strangle people wearing full leather while ignoring those incompatible with its requirements.

Monsters assembled with severed bodyparts would most likely numerous enough to form larger hives into sites of bloodshed. Dark caverns under bloody battlefields would be a fit premise for longer adventures of cleansing the area from evil. Somehow I'm picturing an ant queen-like entity protected by her frankenstein-esque drones along this one.

Japanese are full of these "different types of death makes different undead" and some undead are created quite deliberately and gruesomly (self-canibalisation for example)

As for Faeries the problem mostly comes from the Renaisance and forward.

Medieval and earlier faeries while not always exclusively evil, were a wide variety of creatures many of whome were vicious monsters.

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: Jeoshua on April 29, 2011, 11:27:44 am

I know what this game needs.

Right now we have procedurally generated types of monsters, like Demons or Night Critters or Titans.  But what we need are procedurally generated types of monsters.  Maybe this time attacks you in your sleep, this kind lives on cavern layer 2, and this other one only lives in the catacombs.

Think about it.

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: Solace on April 29, 2011, 05:06:49 pm

Maybe not entirely what you're looking for, but how about something like zombies or bogeymen, something universally hostile, but which won't attack members of their own group. Maybe killing some and covering yourself head to toe with clothing made from their leather would prevent them from attacking you, but of course as far as any other threat is concerned, you're just wearing basic (and possibly shoddily made) leather armor.

EDIT: And if you did get attacked and, say, lose a glove, they would attack only that body part.

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: harborpirate on April 29, 2011, 06:29:15 pm

Procedural creatures are the way to go, but I think what this thread is searching for are novel, non-typical pieces that could be used in that procedural generation. Already there are tons of great ideas for toady to mine out of here.

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: loose nut on April 29, 2011, 06:48:16 pm

Monsters that possess sentient beings (including dwarves naturally). The event would look just like the strange mood of course. The monster could vanish or die upon possession. The goal of the possession could be: to eat all of a particular type of food, to make an artifact and then run off with it, to steal an existing artifact, to tunnel into the depths to free its brethren, to possession-hop until it controls the highest ranking dwarf it can find, to impregnate another dwarf with a monstrous incubus, to build a monument (possibly in an inconvenient spot) at which point the being reaches apotheosis, or, obviously, to kill kill kill every dwarf in sight.

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 29, 2011, 06:49:56 pm

Quote from: harborpirate on April 29, 2011, 06:29:15 pm

Procedural creatures are the way to go, but I think what this thread is searching for are novel, non-typical pieces that could be used in that procedural generation. Already there are tons of great ideas for toady to mine out of here.

Yes, this.

Basically, a creature behaviors or quirks or driving motivations that can be used with a procedural set of creatures, so that we would wind up with creatures that seem like ones out of myth.

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 29, 2011, 07:21:54 pm

I'll talk about another creature as an example... 

Spoiler: Long off-topic discussion about what kitsune actually are (click to show/hide)

Kitsune literally just means "fox" in Japanese, but Kitsune as mythological creatures are shapeshifters with powers over illusion, and behave a little like medieval-era fairies that have sometimes bizarre powers and motives, and are alternately villains and heroes, depending the story and the individual Kitsune.  (Kitsune are common in Chinese and Indian myth, as well, but are almost invariably evil in China or India.  In Japan, one of the major deities of harvest, Inari, was closely associated with kitsune after a myth where a family of kitsune swore to be the servants of the deity in return for protection, and this association may have much to do with the more positive image. Or maybe the good kitsune are all the descendants of those kitsune? Many people with supposed spiritual powers are supposed to be descended from unions with kitsune as the source of their powers, including the Emperor.) 

Many Japanese and Chinese creatures are supposedly normal creatures or objects left out in the light of the moon (the source of magic) for one hundred years, which is supposed to bestow magical sentience upon any non-sentient object.  Kitsune start as foxes that become sentient after 100 years of moonlight.  For every hundred years after that, their natural fox forms gain another tail, and new powers, until they have 9 tails.  Upon a hundred years with 9 tails, they are supposed to ascend into Nirvana, as a part of a reference to Buddhism.

(http://i52.tinypic.com/r1gch1.jpg)

Kitsune possess the ability to shapeshift into human form, and create illusions, sometimes using leaves or other natural bits lying around as part of elaborate illusions.  Tanuki, another shapeshifter, is more known for the trick, but they can cast illusions over leaves to make it appear like paper money.  In elaborate hoaxes, they can convince people to live in false homes for years, and when Kitsune finally leave, the person wakes up having spent years of their life in the dirt, naked. 

Kitsune also have other magical powers, are credited with the ability to create rain even on sunny days, and can have healing magics or the ability to create fox-fire or outright infernos if they are powerful enough.

One story of kitsune I remember is of a man meeting a kitsune (who apparently wasn't even hiding what he was) while he was on a long journey.  The kitsune asked the traveler if he'd like some companionship and a drink, and the weary traveler said he would, since he had been tired and alone for days, and apparently wasn't going to let a little thing like having his drinking buddy being a supernatural trickster stand in the way of having a good time.

The kitsune asked the man to close his eyes and walk with him for a short while, and when he was told it was alright to open his eyes, the man found himself on a balcony overlooking a local drinking hall.  The kitsune snuck in beer from the men below, who didn't seem to notice at first, until the traveler, getting a bit drunk, called out to them, and started inviting them up onto the balcony, a few at a time, to join in their once-private party with the kitsune, who had by now taken on human form. 

Eventually, all but one man in the tavern were up on the balcony, enjoying the party and tricks that the kitsune was performing and the stories he was telling. 

The one hold-out, however, bothered the traveler.  Unlike the others, he had apparently never seen the kitsune or heard the traveler no matter how often he was called out to.  So the traveler asked his newfound kitsune drinking buddy what was the deal with the one hold out.

The kitsune responded that the problem was that virtuous men were completely immune to the illusions of a kitsune, and as such, he couldn't see any of the partying that was going on.

The traveler, then, once it seeped through his alcohol-soaked mind, realized the implication of this: that his partying in an illusion proved he was not a virtuous man.  The realization shocked him enough to make him lose his balance, and when he fell backwards, he fell straight through the floor of the balcony he had been partying on, and looked up to realize that the party had taken place upon the rafters of a tavern that was only one story tall. 

The traveler then ran out of the village, and renounced his worldly possessions to become a Buddhist monk, and vowed to regain his lost way on the path to a virtuous spirit.

---

I really like it because they aren't evil, aren't hostile, nor are they fountains of incorruptible pure pureness.  They're just dudes with cool magic powers who want to have fun on the edges of society even though they won't ever be entirely accepted into society.  (Or maybe the kitsune was trying to make a point?)

In-game, having an oddball fae encounter, where you aren't necessarily forced into combat, but are forced to guess as to whether the fae have hostile intentions or are trustworthy, or just playing a harmless enough prank that simply trying to put on a brave smile and bare with the humiliation is the best way to deal with things. 

It's just a matter of being swept up in a strange situation when you meet a stranger alone on the road who takes you to some illusory fae circus...

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on April 29, 2011, 08:39:14 pm

If we just give monsters random goals, it will deem like alien intelligence. Especially if all relate to one thing. it doesn't have to make sense-we aren't alien to ourselves.

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 29, 2011, 11:11:41 pm

Yeah, but random goals have to at least be programmed in. 

Going through some more kitsune-related myths...

In one of the myths I've read before, a man comes across a beautiful woman searching in the woods.  He is immediately smitten with her, and so he agrees to help her with what she was looking for.  She gives him money, and asks him to go to the lord who is hunting in the forest, and bring back the body of the fox that the lord had just killed in the hunt.

Although both the man and the lord found it very strange, the man is capable of convincing the lord to take the money in exchange for the dead fox, and upon taking the body to the woman, she reveals herself as a kitsune, and tells the man that the dead fox was her father, and the rest of her kitsune family take the body away for a proper burial.

I unfortunately forget a large chunk of the story that comes after this, but at one point, the man falls severely ill, and the kitsune he had helped in the past comes back to give him medicine and save his life.

---

Kitsune are often involved in myths as "shapeshifter lovers", a fairly common type of myth around the world, where female creatures with shapeshifting powers marry (or just seduce) a man who doesn't realize what she is, and only after years of marriage and children (or just a one-night-stand) the husband somehow finds out what she really is (typically because he did something he was told never to do, like look at her when she is in the bath).  What happens after that point depends on the general hostility of the creature and the myth, though.  Kitsune are typically of the more benign variety.

In the Japanese Tales book, there is a story of a man who finds yet another supernaturally charming woman along the side of the road.  He strikes up a conversation with her, and she is at first charmed, and happy for the company. However, as it becomes more and more clear that he isn't interested in just conversation, she becomes troubled.

"The woman tried to hold him off. "Now that you've gotten this far," she said, "I'd like very much to go all the way.  But you see, if we do, you'll die!"

"Much too excited to listen, the man kept pressuring her until she gave in. "I really can't refuse you," she said, "since you insist so urgently.  Very well then, I'll do whatever you wish and die in your place. If you want to show me gratitude, copy the Lotus Sutra and dedicate it for me."

"The man seemed not to take her seriously, and he finally consummated his desire. They lay in each other's arms all night long, chatting like old lovers. At dawn the woman got up and asked the man for his fan.  "I mean what I said, you know," she told him, "I'm going to die instead of you.  If you want proof go into the palace grounds and look around the Butoku Hall.  You'll see." Then she left.

"At daylight the man went to the Butoku Hall and found there a fox lying dead with his fan over its face.  He was very sorry.  Every seven days after that he finished a copy of the Lotus Sutra and dedicated it for the fox's soul.  On the night following the forty-ninth day he dreamed that she came to him, surrounded by angels, and told him that thanks to the power of the Teaching she was to be born into the Tori Heaven."

(Japanese Tales Royall Tyler, 115-116)

---

In another story, an old man who liked to philander when his wife was out of town did the usual routine of falling in love with a mysterious girl he just met, going to her magnificent house with servants, getting married, and having children with her.  He completely forgot about his old family, he was so happy there.

The man's son (from his original family), believing his father had died, had a statue of a god carved to lead them to the body of his father so that a proper burial could take place. 

At that time, the statue burst through the illusion of the kitsune, and the old man, nearly starved to death, crawled out from the crawlspace under the storage shed at his own house.  He had been missing for thirteen days, although to him, it had seemed like thirteen years.  He had been living under the crawlspace of the storage shed of his own house, although it seemed like a luxurious mansion filled with servants to him.  He declared to his son as soon as he saw him that he had fathered a new heir to the household, and yet when he tried to show his (human) son the new heir, there was a litter of young foxes that quickly fled out into the woods. 

---

As for weaknesses of a kitsune, dogs are their natural enemy (because dogs will hunt a fox).  In one story, the way a kitsune wife (one who had been married for many years, and had children) was revealed was when hunting dogs caught her scent and started chasing her, causing her tail to appear in her panic to run away, (the tail or ears are the most common components of a glamour failure for kitsune) and revealing her identity.  (In the end of that story, she couldn't remain in the village, but the husband still loved her, and there were also her children, so she lived outside the village, and the family snuck out in the middle of the night to go and see her.)

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: CatalystParadox on May 04, 2011, 02:53:43 pm

A few ideas:

This: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valravn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valravn)

It already comes up in world history that sometimes sentient beings will begin worshipping creatures like Titans.  What about creatures that seek worship specifically and primarily (over such concerns as food/hoarding)?

Invisible creatures (perhaps visible only under special circumstances, or their location can be inferred from other evidence with close attention and then targetted if you find the EXACT square.) - perhaps very weak otherwise but having a single annoying/interesting power or trait, whether that is poaching an item from your stockpiles such as food or booze or even hoarding items, or even going around giving your dwarves a very specific unhappy thought, or even weakening and slowly killed dwarves in your hospital, to name a few examples.

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: NW_Kohaku on May 04, 2011, 03:15:07 pm

Pulling open Bullfinch's Mythologies, so as not to focus too much on any one area...

The nymphs and dryads of Greek Myth are always interesting. 

Dryads, as far as I can figure out are actually a specific kind of nymph.  Nymphs are daughters of gods whose power is more dilute, and who only have general powers over nature in a specific area, and are born of that specific type of nature, be it a river or a mountain spring or patch of flowers or a bay or a forest, and dryads are just the specific nymphs that are particular to forests. 

Pomona was a hamadryad (a specific sub-type of dryad that is born of an oak tree) who is noted as peculiar in that she didn't love wild forests, but preferred orchards.  She especially loved apple trees and grape vines, and grew these.  She scorned love, and turned away the various gods and satyrs and human suitors, but would allow common field workers into her orchards to help maintain and harvest the fruit she grew.

(The rest of the story is about how a harvest god actually manages to convince her to marry him, by talking about how the vine depends upon the tree and the apple tree upon the bees and such, but that's not really relevant to the game until we get something like marriages and the ability to marry supernatural creatures into the game.)

A friendly nature spirit that lives in the local orchard, and allows for hospitable interaction, so long as certain rules particular to that one spirit demands that people abide by would be a way to introduce some interesting interactions to the game.

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: Bohandas on May 04, 2011, 05:02:03 pm

posting to watch.

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: Mountain-King on May 04, 2011, 07:31:13 pm

based on the development updates night creatures and other monsters are being realized via a "curse" system. it would be cool if some of those monsters were originally normal creatures that were placed under curses because of some historical event. like in the valravn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valravn) example above where ravens eat a dead king and become evil spirits. or like La Llorona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Llorona), who drowns her kids and isn't allowed into heaven and becomes a crazy undying ghost who kidnaps children that stray too far from home. or like an elf betrays the laws of his race and kills and eats an animal and is cursed to become a flesheating ghoul. or like a demon dies in a battle and his blood spills on a tree and the tree turns into a giant hell ent.

i am also in favor of mischievous or benevolent monsters. like say some kind of mimic that disguises itself as an everyday object and then pops out and scares someone and runs away. or lares-and-penates-type household spirits who intervene once in a while in an unobtrusive way. the kind of thing that wouldn't be controllable and wouldn't have any real effect on gameplay, but would still be a really cool thing to have happen once in a while.

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: NW_Kohaku on May 04, 2011, 08:45:27 pm

Quote from: Mountain-King on May 04, 2011, 07:31:13 pm

i am also in favor of mischievous or benevolent monsters. like say some kind of mimic that disguises itself as an everyday object and then pops out and scares someone and runs away. or lares-and-penates-type household spirits who intervene once in a while in an unobtrusive way. the kind of thing that wouldn't be controllable and wouldn't have any real effect on gameplay, but would still be a really cool thing to have happen once in a while.

Well, again, the classic Chinese/Japanese style of myth holds that almost any form of creature or object can turn into a "monster" after 100 years of moonlight.

This includes normal foxes turning into kitsune that are trickster spirits, but it also includes inanimate objects.

Objects like old pots or umbrellas that gain life and sentience because of magic are classic types of monsters.  These are called tsukumogami (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsukumogami), and the umbrella-creature, called a karakasa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karakasa) is the most emblematic, appearing as an umbrella with a single large eye that hops around on its one leg/handle and tries to lick people with its oversized tongue. 

Typically, they aren't hostile, and are at worst pranksters, enjoying scaring people by pretending to be common household objects before startling people with their ability to move and speak. 

In some modern stories (basically, anime), the weird kid/loner freak actually lives with harmless forms of youkai/monsters who like to scare most humans, but shelter the loner and consider him/her "one of them".  (These stories often revolving around a new kid getting sucked up into the world of the supernatural because of association with the Loner Freak when they Just Want To Be Normal.)

Exceptions exist, however, for objects which were thrown away or abandoned or abused, which specifically want revenge upon their former owners (or humans in general) for their abuse or neglect.  (Of course, there's only so much damage a paper umbrella can really do...)

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: CatalystParadox on May 04, 2011, 09:36:59 pm

Quote from: Mountain-King on May 04, 2011, 07:31:13 pm

based on the development updates night creatures and other monsters are being realized via a "curse" system. it would be cool if some of those monsters were originally normal creatures that were placed under curses because of some historical event. like in the valravn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valravn) example above where ravens eat a dead king and become evil spirits. or like La Llorona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Llorona), who drowns her kids and isn't allowed into heaven and becomes a crazy undying ghost who kidnaps children that stray too far from home. or like an elf betrays the laws of his race and kills and eats an animal and is cursed to become a flesheating ghoul. or like a demon dies in a battle and his blood spills on a tree and the tree turns into a giant hell ent.

Excellent point re: curses.  That brings to mind the Wendigo - adventurers, if hungry enough, will eat sentients.  Does this ever happen for historical figures in worldgen under any circumstances? (excluding elves, of course)

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: NW_Kohaku on May 04, 2011, 10:07:58 pm

Quote from: CatalystParadox on May 04, 2011, 09:36:59 pm

Excellent point re: curses.  That brings to mind the Wendigo - adventurers, if hungry enough, will eat sentients.  Does this ever happen for historical figures in worldgen under any circumstances? (excluding elves, of course)

No.  They don't even forage before they starve to death.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Toady One on April 06, 2011, 12:10:42 am

Quote from: NW_Kohaku

What models are there governing population growth and decline?  Where do you want it to go - a simple and streamlined abstract model of growth and decline based upon a tally of upward population growth forces and downward pressures on populations, or a very gritty and detailed model where every wave of disease is tracked, so that there will be history events of the great city fire of 231?

The problem with that is that starvation doesn't seem to be modelled very well at all - people just keep eating normally right up until there's only food for 30% of them left, and so 70% of the population just sits there and waits to die.

Starvation doesn't work quite that blindly in world gen, but even when they try to save up for hard times and go as far as infanticide (cutting pop growth rate), they can't really forage or disperse right now -- they don't know how to move -- which is when they start to die off.  It has all of the food and population tracked numerically, so they just need more methods to deal with unexpected crop failures or missing caravans or overall food shortages.  Since it is tracking everything, historical citations of specific instances of famine etc. is just a matter of detecting/adding historical events now when something bad happens over a period of weeks.  The new slowness in world gen comes from pushing all of this info around.  When we get to disease, I'm sure that'll be tracked site by site, pop by pop, over the years as well.

Of course, that may eventually change...

The idea of a "positive curse" is one I'd rather like to see, though. 

Urist McPeterParker was bitten by a radioactive cave spider...

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: Nasikabatrachus on May 05, 2011, 02:34:11 pm

The Sword of Truth books by Terry Goodkind had some good unusual creatures in them. The least spoilerific of these are some humanoids called Andolians who lived to carry messages from place to place. One lesson to draw from those books is that tying "interactions" to objects to create these creatures with unusual motivations is a good idea. The Vorpal Blade can cut through even adamantium--but only at the cost of turning your adventurer into a creature who must eat a -small iron right gauntlet- every day to live! Or some such silly procedural curse.

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: sockless on May 07, 2011, 01:55:23 am

Just watched a bit of a Fringe episode today. In it there were beetles that ate themselves out of a human host. I think that would be an interesting thing to have in the game, or parasites in general, particularly the zombifying parasites.

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on June 01, 2011, 09:05:16 pm

That would be awesome and !!FUN!!

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: CatalystParadox on June 01, 2011, 10:02:56 pm

Oh man, that would make an EXCELLENT forgotten beast syndrome.  "Beware its burrowing spawn!"

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: Ahrimahn on June 02, 2011, 09:11:48 am

What would be the difference between that and a sting. OH it could permanatly paralyze the dwarf and later a new baby copy of the beast could be born from that.

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: UltraValican on June 05, 2011, 03:45:14 pm

-edited several times due to posting fails >:(
Well since the op seems to have extensive knowledge Japanese Myths (where did you find all that great information? :D) I would like to suggest Yuki-ona like creatures
The Yuki-ona or Snow woman was basically  sort of like snow succubi(sometimes vampiric and sometime just killing travelers for sh*ts and giggles) She even devise tactics like pretending to abuse a child killing any good Samaritans.
    There is one story in particular about a young handsome boy who was caught by a Yuki-ona the Yuki ona let him live, simply because she thought he was attractive(potential pedo-bear like monsters perhaps?) on the condition he never tells anyone about the encounter, if he did tell she would kill him. When the boy grows up, he tells his wife about the Yuuki-ona.
The wife said,” That was me, I was the Yuki-ona, but I told you not to tell ANYONE about that day or I would kill you, but you are the father of my children so I won't kill you, but if you EVER lay a hand on my babies there will be hell to pay!".
Luckily, the man was a wonderful father

   So along with pedo bear like creatures we could have mercy based on certain aspects of an individual (In this story beauty and later on child rearing) and potentially creatures (night hags or those (fox spirits I forgot the actual name) morph into human forms and potentially integrate into human society for various reasons, in some cases even integrating just to make sure someone follows through on a promise and maybe even showing gestures of forgiveness. Maybe even cases (if toady ever implements a “life” mode involving child-hood) when a child not-knowing any better sets a monster or a beast free from a trap of some sort, the monster could act as a guardian or potential suitor or love interest in the future (or with curses and powers in the next update infects the child and instructs them to come to a certain location when they feel they are ready.
    Speaking of such scenarios maybe we could have catastrophic events brought upon people by benevolent spirits that had good intentions but whose actions result in serious consequences. (A dwarven king Midas but with cotton candy perhaps?)
   Maybe a recreation of the Yuuki-ona’s story but with the man being a dead beat father

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on June 05, 2011, 08:06:12 pm

Ooh! Creatures that were warped by a secret, built a small fort, and vowed never to let anyone know the secret again. A town might spring up around the ruins, or maybe the secret-keeper chose to hide in a city, or maybe they flee into deep wilderness and patrol the area for other creatures, the better to make sure none learn the secret. The area around the lair is littered with the products and maybe the reactants for a reaction secret.

For instance, if some such thing happened with the procedurally generated secret I described here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=86085.msg2328581#msg2328581), Urist McUhOh the part-draltha monster might retreat deep into the territory of The Nations of Wood, who provide guards to help prevent anyone from finding The Blue Grasses and learning The Waters of Greenness. The area might be littered with phantom spider soap and some leathers. The Steadfast Confederation might wage war on The Nation of Wood so it could teach others The Waters of Greenness, and attack the elves with part-draltha monster soldiers who knew The Waters of Greenness to regain The Blue Grasses.

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: Lost_Deep on June 09, 2011, 09:08:26 pm

Although not really fitting to DF's theme (or maybe it is, depends how you look at it.) I think that extraterrestrials might be interesting.

They would be procedurally generated, yes, but more importantly their goals would be.

Urist McJoeschmoe cancelled daily drudgery: licked by extraterrestrial.

Or the ETS could just stand on a hill and take notes... or place bets. Or light fires. Or... kick all goblin axemen in alphabetical order.
It gets Fun when you throw in syndromes. And since it sounds like curses can be spread through syndromes now...

Urist McFirstcontact cancels Job: became a werespider.

Even if this particular thing is not implemented, the framework to do so through modding would be nice.

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on June 09, 2011, 11:59:46 pm

Quote from: Lost_Deep on June 09, 2011, 09:08:26 pm

Or the ETS could just stand on a hill and take notes... or place bets. Or light fires. Or... kick all goblin axemen in alphabetical order.

Or insult everyone in the universe.
Or capture a dwarf, release him back "into the wild" with a tag of some exotic metal and a weird syndrome.
Or...Or...

Yeah, not extraterresrials, but normaller monsters could have weird goals like these.

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: Lost_Deep on June 10, 2011, 08:46:23 am

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on June 09, 2011, 11:59:46 pm

Quote from: Lost_Deep on June 09, 2011, 09:08:26 pm

Or the ETS could just stand on a hill and take notes... or place bets. Or light fires. Or... kick all goblin axemen in alphabetical order.

Or insult everyone in the universe.
Or capture a dwarf, release him back "into the wild" with a tag of some exotic metal and a weird syndrome.
Or...Or...

Yeah, not extraterresrials, but normaller monsters could have weird goals like these.

Ooh! Procedurally generated faeries would be magnificent! They look weird, they act weird, and no one can blame them because they're, you know, faeries.

ETs. What was I thinking?

Title: Re: Alien Creature Behaviors and Myth
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on June 10, 2011, 12:00:02 pm

sounds like you got a good ole clambake going can i join? :P