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Author Topic: Implementing Magic  (Read 2324 times)

axus

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Re: Implementing Magic
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2007, 01:22:00 am »

Based on what Toady said, magic would have to be something that is modded in and based on scripting.  The game would ship with the "official" mods and then people could write their own.  The scripting system would have to be powerful enough to cause any game effect and check any condition, so it sounds like a huge job.  Something to save til all the game effects are finalized
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Faces of Mu

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Re: Implementing Magic
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2007, 01:22:00 am »

I'm certainly not one for telling Toady + ThreeToe how or in what ways they should be creative.

But I agree with the subtle-effects style Toady has suggested. Until the OP's thoughts I was quite pessimistic about the introduction of Magic. Now I can see how Magic can be incorporated and still keep the progressive, cause-and-effect sense of the game. In the current magic-in-game-fantasy-world paradigms, the more subtle effect type of magic would be very different to what we've come to expect of the genre. I imagine it would also be far easier for Toady to incorporate into the coding, as well as keep the organic nature of DF's developments (i.e., start small and subtle and grow the concept as players and designers see fit -over time-).

Love it.

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Zonk

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Re: Implementing Magic
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2007, 04:30:00 am »

Let's avoid really flashy stuff - like fireballs and lighting bolts.

Magic should perhaps be more concerned with creating and enchanting magic items, and would also require non-magic craft skill.
You could use a crafter + an enchanter, but having someone who is BOTH would just be more efficient.

I really like Asehujiko's ideas, here are some additions.
By the way, the warmage really looks too flashy for my tastes. Yes, there are creatures who can throw balls of fire, but I guess these are innate supernatural abilities, not "real"magic dwarves or humans should be able to use.

Necromancy
This would require an Embalming skill, which would also have non-magic uses, for normal mummification.
Embalming would require embalming fluids(from Alchemy)and bandages(made from cloth). Really well-embalmed dwarf corpses should last nearly forever. Knowing other dwarves are being embamed - so their bodies last for eternity - should have some effect on a dwarf's thoughts...possibly positive.
Of course, what the player will most probably want to do is ANIMATING Mummies.
Mummies would not be as clumsy as zombies, and seeing them walk around would not be as horrible as zombies, considering how well-preserved they are. Possibly, mummies could even retain most of their intelligence and skills, and help around. However, the process to Embalm + Animate is going to be extremely complex, and should probably only be used on legendary dwarves...and nobles. Imagine having undead nobility...they could rule for centuries...Something like "The King is dead!Long live the king!" You could also mummify(and animate) animals and pets, perhaps lessening the pain of dwarves for their loss.
Failure at embalming would mean the body rots, and if animated it's a zombie.
Failure at animating means either the body is not animated as a mummy or it's animated as a mummy...but it's crazy and hostile!


Shamanism
Shamanistic totems should affect the dwarfs who carry them, depending on the animal. Totems would first be crafted and then enchanted. If the Enchanter is also the Crafter, there should be a quality bonus.
Anyway, based on the animal and quality, there should be bonuses, although they should never be truly exceptional and balance-shattering. A well-made bear-made totem might grant some extra strength or toughness, for example. A deer totem might grant some extra speed moving purposes only. Another shaman power could be weather-prediction - not super useful, but fits.
Perhaps powerful shamans might also have an "astral projection"power they might use to scout distant places or the inside of the mountain...

Artificer
Somewhat related to the Runecrafter. Deals with crafting AND enchanting various advanced  mechanical-magical items, like golems. Requires some Forging/Metalwork skill.

Warmage
I think if we want a real war caster who is not too flashy, we should perhaps have a caster who has not-directly damaging spells that are mostly useful in battles and sieges.
For example, Illusions to scare/confuse the enemy and Guiding spells to increase the accuracy of missiles and.

Divination
Useful for predicting things. Diviners could be useful for any race or culture.
Diviners could know about incoming events - good or bad - before they happen.
For example, they might give you some advance warning so you know about frogmen attacks from wells before they happen. Of course, not all predictions would be accurate. Some could be bogus and never happen.
Also, perhaps the more dangerous thing should be easier to predict - for example, I think that predicting a Dragon's attack should be easier than predicting a frogmen or kobold one or the arrival of a caravan.
Divination would be mostly random, not used actively, with some exceptions perhaps(using crystals balls to scry?). Divination might also be sleep-based. Dreams are a good source of predictions.
Failing at divination means either not predicting a certain event or predicting an event which will never happen.

I think that perhaps different types of magic should be related to different races...
I think that only the Geomancer and Runemaster really "fit"with dwarves at the moment.
The Shaman would fit better with playing goblins(something we will probably have in the distant future)- and most probably tribal goblins who live above ground.

Also, don't forget what was said about playing "Wizard Towers": in this kind of game, you might start with only one or two kind of magics, but might end with all, although you will probably have to specialize.
It would be interesting: you'd start with 3 or 4 magic apprentices and 3 or 4 servants, and would have to build up your tower, hire or summon guards, research spells and items of magic power while trading or warring with other towers..

Also, always remember that magical failures could have really nasty effects.

[ June 18, 2007: Message edited by: Zonk ]

[ June 18, 2007: Message edited by: Zonk ]

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ups syndrome

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Re: Implementing Magic
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2007, 09:44:00 am »

that sure is a huge wall of text

when implementing magic into the game you have two aspects that should be looked into

1. items
2. npcs

as far as items go, i think we can all agree that fey moods/possession should be the fort's primary source of magical items. hell, even once you have a magical item, you shouldn't be allowed to take it from it's creator/ use it without the help of a noble or some other game mechanic. this would make magical items truly rare and powerful. maybe it could work something like this

fey mood > create artifact > 'lorekeeper' noble (or whatever) arrives, 'charts' the item's magical abilities > take item from creator > give it to dwarf that can use it best > ???? > profit

next, you have to look at magical characters that show up at your fort. this kind of draws on the idea above, sorta. maybe if you have a fell/macabre mood, or lots of deaths, (like the house of death) a necromancer will show up. alternatively, if you have lots of fey moods, maybe a wizard will show up. etc. etc. both could bring something new and interesting to the game dynamic

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TerminatorII

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Re: Implementing Magic
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2007, 03:52:00 pm »

In some fantasy, Powerful Dwarves can Ken tunnels. The one I am thinking of, all dwarves coul use magic for really is to Ken a tunnel, and to carve runes.
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Re: Implementing Magic
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2007, 09:18:00 am »

I'd like someone to be able to cause and control flooding - just to watch a siege being flung around by wave after battering wave.

-Albert

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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Implementing Magic
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2007, 11:10:00 am »

Well, if fluid dynamics work not only in the pressure part, but in velocity as well...   quite feasible. Otherwise all you could hope for is make a gigantic blob of water that would flood the surroundings in all directions.
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Zonk

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Re: Implementing Magic
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2007, 11:25:00 am »

I think it would be a Geomancer who would be tasked with finding subterrean rivers and the like...though you could propose an Hydromancer, specialized in water magic if you wanted. It wouldn't be too dwarf-like, but...
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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Implementing Magic
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2007, 04:25:00 pm »

I'd like to see a Water golem. How do you inscribe a rune on water?..

Seriously, rune magic is very potent, its only drawback is that you need a physical medium. Creating a watery avalance from a piece of ice with a water-motion rune engraved is quite dwarvenly magical.

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Blue Eagle

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Re: Implementing Magic
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2007, 09:38:00 pm »

Magic rune traps, perhaps?
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Re: Implementing Magic
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2007, 10:19:00 am »

Rune magic is as potent as you program it to be.

Runes are word-magic. That would be the field of humans or elves. For a dwarf - has anyone read Lois Bujold's "The Spirit Ring"? Read Papa Beneforte's indignant descriptions of how he created the enchanted saltceller.

Enchantment shouldn't be a matter of adding something to a finished product, but a matter of telling the thing you are making what it needs to be. Passion that cannot be described, only felt and communicated, power too primal to be put into to words, poured into crucible along with the molten gold, or woven into the tapestry alongside every thread.

How do you know when you have made a great work? When the humans fall silent in awe, stirred by the echo that is most dwarven within them. When the elves burst into tears and flee, terrified that they will drown in the solemn glory. When your fellow dwarves abandon their gallows humor, but sing and dance and labor in joyous harmony from strengthened unity. When the goblins slink away in shame, and the kobolds brave death merely for to touch it once, racing away satisfied and fulfilled. That is when you have created a great work.

[ June 22, 2007: Message edited by: Albert the Absentminded ]

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slMagnvox

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Re: Implementing Magic
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2007, 03:59:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Albert the Absentminded:
How do you know when you have made a great work? When the humans fall silent in awe, stirred by the echo that is most dwarven within them. When the elves burst into tears and flee, terrified that they will drown in the solemn glory. When your fellow dwarves abandon their gallows humor, but sing and dance and labor in joyous harmony from strengthened unity. When the goblins slink away in shame, and the kobolds brave death merely for to touch it once, racing away satisfied and fulfilled. That is when you have created a great work.

Cheers.  I forgot what you were selling, but I'll take a dozen.

Mark me down as a strong supporter of dwarven magic consisting of 10% enchantment and 90% painstaking, heart breaking labor.

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Fieari

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Re: Implementing Magic
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2007, 05:37:00 pm »

Absolutely.  Magic should be dangerous to mess with, hard as hell to create (at LEAST the level of difficulty as creating a standard artifact is right now), and subtle.

I mean, videogames creating fireballs is easy.  Simulating the creation of the undead?  A cakewalk.  But I think Dwarf Fortress is the first game where you can have an honest to god ENCHANTER, and not have it be prescripted or something dumb like a spell making the shopkeeper give you a 10% discount.  Dwarf Fortress has thoughts and moods and emotions.  Magic that can alter that is my dream for this game.  Because no other game could even dream of implementing something like it.

Imagine a spell that makes your target fear spiders.  In any other game, that would be a painstaking thing to code, requiring a lot of scripting, lines of dialog recorded for the purpose, etc... and it would come out to be something corny.  In DF, it'd be so simple to implement that once magic is in at all, it'd take half a second to be put in the game.

Imagine a spell that does something so simple, yet so profound as to steal the color from a princess's eyes.  In any other game, this could only be implemented through a scripted plot point... otherwise how would you cover the shock from the populace, the moral hit to the kingdom, the governmental coverup, the political machinations... in DF?  Once politics are in, the magic part is easy.

Magic in other games are just re-conceptualized guns.  Guns are easy, and thus boring.  Only in Dwarf Fortress can you have FAIRYTALE magic.  Freeze a city in time for a hundred years, broken with a kiss.  Blinding the mind of a king, allowing the adviser to be the defacto ruler of the nation. Create a tower with twelve windows that can show you anywhere in the world except the back of your own head. Grow trees that bloom with gemstones. Magic to make someone forget... even forget that they are in love.

And when it comes to guns... Dwarf Fortress has the potential to blow every other game out of the water.  Final Fantasy has spells that look like they're crashing meteors into the earth, but barely scratch the foe you're fighting. Dwarf Fortress can have meteors crash into the ground, and destroy not only a nation, but create a dust cloud that circles the earth, blots out the sun, and begins an ice age that lasts millenia.  In cutscenes, summons can swallow cities, but in actual battles, Final Fantasy produces nothing of interest.  Dwarf Fortress can actually rearrange the face of the planet.

None of this should be easy.  The more devastating effects should be ridiculously difficult to achieve.  But the fact that the engine makes it possible... is epic.

Looking forwards to it.

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Eagleon

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Re: Implementing Magic
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2007, 05:51:00 pm »

quote:
And when it comes to guns... Dwarf Fortress has the potential to blow every other game out of the water. Final Fantasy has spells that look like they're crashing meteors into the earth, but barely scratch the foe you're fighting. Dwarf Fortress can have meteors crash into the ground, and destroy not only a nation, but create a dust cloud that circles the earth, blots out the sun, and begins an ice age that lasts millenia. In cutscenes, summons can swallow cities, but in actual battles, Final Fantasy produces nothing of interest. Dwarf Fortress can actually rearrange the face of the planet.

Not to mention blowing up/boiling/teleporting bodyparts, organs, etc. ala Armok 1.  :D The things you could do with magic in the first Armok, as simple as it was, is really what made me stick around Bay12 long enough to get hooked, and I hope similar stuff is put in.

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Re: Implementing Magic
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2007, 07:30:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by slMagnvox:
<STRONG>

Cheers.  I forgot what you were selling, but I'll take a dozen.


I was picturing a statue or tapestry, some great artistic work into which the dwarf had poured the weight and passion of his memories - the anguish as well as the joy. Such a work would have an 'inspire emotion' effect within a certain radius, or perhaps line-of-sight. The exact emotion can vary, of course, but to creatures who are supposed to be reserved and stoic, practically any strong emotion is likely to be cathartic if the dwarf doesn't take it as a source of shame.

If we have places where dwarves are expected to feel certain ways - solemn and reflective in a tomb, lively and talkative at parties, etc., the proper magical art can really enhance this - and improper art can ruin things.

Now I want a war banner from Boatmurdered to carry before my dwarves to inspire them in battle. Mad Emperor Sankis on fire, locked in mortal combat with an elephant.

quote:
Mark me down as a strong supporter of dwarven magic consisting of 10% enchantment and 90% painstaking, heart breaking labor.</STRONG>

{Wise Elder - Or Pompous Ass, Depending - Voice}
Your error, young one, is that you draw a distinction between the two.
{/Wise Elder Voice}

If you are making a weapon, pour your love of battle into it, or your admiration for warriors and their bravery. Devise a hundred little tasks to teach it its purpose before you heat it - convince a weaponmaster to go through drills with it, sing songs of valor to it, take it to visit the grave of heroes of the past, and so forth. When striking hot metal, focus on what you want it to be. When it is cooled, does the edge sharpen past a razor? Is the balance excellent? Your encouragement worked - it is an apt tool to its purpose.
(If you are very experienced and have learned the trick of it, there is no need for ritual - merely know what it must be, and let the knowledge sink into the weapon as you make it.)

Then what happens when a dwarf who hates goblins makes such a weapon? What will it do when it tastes goblin blood?

All soul-magic, so far. Will-magic allows for true wierdness. Example: Take a soul-magic tapestry of a garden and make it a gateway to a tiny regio that contains the garden and nothing else.

-Albert

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