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Author Topic: Seeking Dynamic Economic Games  (Read 1170 times)

Abram Jones

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Re: Seeking Dynamic Economic Games
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2024, 01:54:39 am »

Quote
sovereignty
A game is considered to have this functionality if 1. Instruments such as taxes (including tribute and tariffs), property zoning, and government regulations can be implemented that can dynamically impact the game economy or 2. There is a distinction between sovereign status and ownership over territory or property.

Quote
industry
This includes any process regarding production or service a player can partake in during the game that is not financial or social in nature, and does not involve combat or crime. Some common examples industrial sectors are manufacturing and construction, hunting and gathering, transportation, management of real estate, farming and fishing, mining and logging, dealing insurance, developing technology, and healthcare.

dear lord, the brain fungus is deep with this one. . I would laugh but our current economic systems are run by guys like this. 'please mom, don't mix the potatoes and the carrots!' its pure ideology

There is a rhyme and reason for requirements and examples. The requirements are not abstract concepts randomly thrown together as a result of ideology, but are there to differentiate game features and keep game themes within check. However, I am aware that they might be poorly explained (which I have slowly been improving on over the years). I am unsure exactly where your confusion is because you didn't describe what you disagree with, but I will explain what you quoted within the proper context of their purpose.

Sovereignty
Firstly, this is not a requirement to be on the list. For clarification, this is simply a bonus awarded to certain games that already qualify with the basic mechanics required. The purpose for this particular attribute is to distinguish the functionality of territory ownership (and sometimes group structure) in different types of games. Normally in a game, 1 player/team will control an area/region. However, if a game has this bonus it signifies that area ownership is more complex and dynamic than this. While one person/group may technically own the land, it is possible that another person/group might have certain governing abilities over that same land. Games like this offer the potential for an extra layer of strategy which can have exponential implications regarding the game economy. And though games like this are extremely rare, this is how the real world works. Even in a completely laissez-faire economy (where 1 person/entity own the land 100%) there is a possibility that the status could change in the real world. But in almost all games, this possibility does not exist. This is one reason why it is very important to highlight this underused feature that offers an additional realistic dynamic to a game.

Industry
It should be clarified here that this is only a partial list of examples that you quoted, the purpose of this is to give the reader an understanding of what might be meant by industrial functions in a game. It is not a list to limit other functions that could be industrial in nature. One of several reasons to go into such detail on this feature is to distinguish it from financial features, and also bonus features if applicable. It is important to distinguish between an abstract function that is thematic to a game that could be used for both industrial or financial purposes. It's not that thematic functions can't be used, but that they should be defined relative to each other. One area this often problematic is with currency. Technically, in the real world, anything can be used as currency. However, there are certain restraints that can stop this from happening or alter the use of the currency. And in games, it is fine to simulate this as well, but this must be defined relative to other mechanics (not necessarily realistically). This may seem like brain fungus at first inspection, but does have structure. Basically, we are separating theme and function. This is where these requirements come in, which focus on realistic economic/financial dynamics... simply because that is where strategic experience can be improved upon greatly. Games on this list are not judged by how realistic they simulate any given thing (which is a different topic), but are included by possessing economic/financial dynamics between different game elements.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2024, 02:07:40 am by Abram Jones »
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Abram Jones

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Re: Seeking Dynamic Economic Games
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2024, 06:18:08 am »

Lords and Villeins (https://store.steampowered.com/app/1287530/Lords_and_Villeins/) is definitely a "dynamic economic game" but it doesn't quite fit into the categories you outlined. The entire gameplay loop involves managing your medieval village's economy, because every good is affected by supply and demand (there is a simulated order book for price discovery) and villagers need to be able to trade with each other to fulfill their needs. So taxes and church tithes, which are highly configurable, are zero sum. Money only enters into the system through either exports to "travelling merchants" or via minting coins (which is done by an artisan family, who must be able to purchase the raw gold/silver/copper + fuel to smelt them and profitably convert to coinage -- which is not a given, if you haven't set up those industries).
Even something as simple as construction has to be contracted out to a mason or carpenter family, which the buyer has to pay for. "Plots" (which are the basic form of land ownership) can have their taxes configured in one of three ways: "fee farm", where the holder pays you a set amount per month in gold; "stewardry" where you pay them per month but in return receive 100% of their produced goods, and "socage" (the default), where they simply pay a set percentage of their production per month but no money changes hands.

The system is very dynamic and you can encounter all kinds of interesting crises as a result of mismanagement, e.g., your peasants can "dry up" the money supply, purchasing clothes/tools/other consumables from travelling merchants without balancing exports, leading to a deflationary spiral (barter is not implemented, so transactions require coinage). I'd say it's not a very *good* game (maybe a 6/10, there are some serious gameplay issues), but it's very interesting and simulates the economic matters in a way I've never seen before in the genre.

Thanks for the detailed information, it helps a lot when I'm trying to figure out if a game qualifies for the list or not. With the way you described how coins work it sounds like this game may qualify as a result of having dynamic currency, which is very rare for games. Can you explain further about the deflationary spiral as a result of trade imbalance? What is the mechanism that creates this deflation? Do villagers just decided to lower prices because of the lack of coins or is it something else?

Also, could you elaborate on taxes, government, the church, and its relation to the game population. I'm assuming the player acts as the government. Do they control the church too, or is that done by NPCS? Also, is the entire population NPCs that act on their own as if they are individual players, how does that work?

I will be reading the manual too, but any information you can provide from a player's perspective will be appreciated.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2024, 06:34:20 am by Abram Jones »
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Malus

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Re: Seeking Dynamic Economic Games
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2024, 10:48:26 am »

Thanks for the detailed information, it helps a lot when I'm trying to figure out if a game qualifies for the list or not. With the way you described how coins work it sounds like this game may qualify as a result of having dynamic currency, which is very rare for games. Can you explain further about the deflationary spiral as a result of trade imbalance? What is the mechanism that creates this deflation? Do villagers just decided to lower prices because of the lack of coins or is it something else?

Also, could you elaborate on taxes, government, the church, and its relation to the game population. I'm assuming the player acts as the government. Do they control the church too, or is that done by NPCS? Also, is the entire population NPCs that act on their own as if they are individual players, how does that work?

I will be reading the manual too, but any information you can provide from a player's perspective will be appreciated.
The player acts as the "lord" and is responsible for zoning, choosing which families to accept into the village, setting taxes and trade policies, etc. So yes, they're the local government. The individual villagers are not agentic in the same way as the player: they autonomously work on their assigned plots, engage in commerce by visiting the market or storefronts, consume food, etc. The basic unit of organization is the "family" which is a group of related villagers who share assets. So you might accept a family of farmers, zone a farm for them, and assign them the farm (with one of the aforementioned types of feudal contract determining the manner in which they're taxed: fee-farm, stewardry, socage). As an example, you might set the farm's contract to "socage", and require they pay you and the church 10% of their produce seasonally. Notably, they don't "own" the land (you are the feudal lord and thus own all the land), they are simply authorized to use it according to the terms of their feudal contract. You can void these contracts and assign the zones to other families as you please. The player can also impose production limits, telling them which crops they're permitted to plant, etc. Feudal contracts are per plot and a family can be assigned multiple plots, each with different contracts (and thus obligations): you might zone residential areas under the "fee-farm" contract, requiring tax payments in coin (as residential plots don't produce goods).

Prices are set via a simulated order book where villagers place buy and sell orders based on their needs: for example, if a family has low food stores, then they'll be willing to pay more for bread. If their food stores are empty and they're starving, then their bid can rise up to the limit of their available wealth. I am not 100% sure of the exact implementation here, I'm just going off of what the tutorial states and what I've observed. The result is that prices are dynamic enough that if too much coinage has exited the village's economy (through, e.g., excess imports) the low supply of coins will exert downward pressure on all prices (villagers won't place buy orders they can't afford: there is no debt). The reverse, where there are excess exports (or too much minting) can lead to inflation of prices, but this is generally not a problem, as there are external money sinks, in the form of the King's Tax (which is the "challenge" element of the game: you must make tax payments yearly, either in coin or goods, and the amount he demands increases over time) and imports from travelling merchants.

The church is treated as, basically, a large "family" -- all their assets are shared amongst the clergy, who act autonomously, as any other villager. You cannot tax them, but they exist on the map and interact with your village's economy. Each "feudal contract" has a slider for how much tax they're required to pay you, and how much they owe to the church ("tithe"). The church will be unhappy if their tithes are too low, which can cause its own problems. In the case where the church is receiving tithes in kind rather than coin (for "socage" contracts), this might result in the church accumulating a surplus of goods it has no use for (jewelry, livestock, flour, etc), which, as it is agentic in the same manner as the villager families, it can then sell back to villagers or export. Villagers generally avoid selling goods for less than it cost them to produce, but the church has no such qualms when it comes to liquidating its tithes, which can apply undesirable downward pressure on prices. The clergy can also engage in their own specialized industries (bookbinding, medicine, winemaking, and some others) to help keep itself afloat, though in practice they're heavily reliant on tithes.

The player is represented on the map as a "noble family" made up of the lord, their immediate family, as well as servants and guards (recruited from the villagers: you can set their salary and they will remit a portion to the family they were originally from). They require food, clothes, a home with beds, etc, and are responsible for collecting taxes (and storing them, in the case of goods). They exist to answer the question of: what do you *do* with the taxes you receive. They don't engage in any form of production, so you can think of them as another resource sink, though you can, for instance, tell them to set up a market stall and sell back your taxed goods. You can set up buy/sell orders for each good, to establish price floors or ceilings (provided your treasury can absorb the costs). You can also ban villagers from transacting with travelling merchants and completely control all imports/exports manually. The local market and the external market are separate, so you can also profit via arbitrage, e.g., buying cheap foreign clothes and reselling them at a premium to your own villagers (though this might cause problems for your local tailors, if you have any).
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Abram Jones

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Re: Seeking Dynamic Economic Games
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2024, 04:57:45 pm »

SimCompanies is another one. I have the app on my phone but it apparently has a website too.

About the only criterion it meets is debt. You can sell bonds to other players to get some quick capital, and pay interest on it until you buy them back.

Thanks very much, I have added it to the list. It's good to see a popular game like this using dynamic bonds. Eventually I hope that most games will be using at least 1 dynamic financial feature.

Sounds like Offworld Trading company but beware that game is not very sandboxy, it's short matches.

Yes, this game is already on the list.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2024, 05:41:41 pm by Abram Jones »
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Abram Jones

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Re: Seeking Dynamic Economic Games
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2024, 07:39:39 am »

I’m not sure what you mean by “dynamic value of currency” if Prosperous Universe doesn’t qualify. In that game the value of every player-created product or service is player-controlled. Even taxes on most planets are set by player-elected managers. Money supply is created by producing so much of a commodity you finally drive the price so low there’s only the NPC buyer of last resort. One of the flaws in PU was it had no real way to shrink the money supply; inflation risk is high - I think it never occurred because the universe kept getting reset.

Do you have a definition for what you mean?

Regardless, the game qualifies for the list due to shareholding. Regarding currency, what you are describing sounds like other elements of the economy dynamically fluctuating in value not the currency itself fluctuating in value as a result of direct manipulation from a currency mechanic. There is no minting/printing of currency happening that would impact not only prices within the game but the default value of the currency.

As an aside, I would not really say PU had debt either; there’s no way to enforce it, unless something changed (you can break contracts, and that might get you on some bad-actors lists so you won’t get any new contracts, but it won’t block you from trading at the open NPC markets).

From what I understand players can give each other loans. So you are saying repayments can be ignored without consequence? A list as you mentioned could possibly be a consequence depending on how engrained in the game it is, but wouldn't count if it's something that players have to make up to protect themselves. However, if there is a mechanism that puts someone on such a list that bars them from taking loans again or something else like increases their interest rate, that would probably be good enough.
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Blue_Dwarf

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Re: Seeking Dynamic Economic Games
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2024, 08:11:37 pm »

Check Shop-Like on Steam. I'm not sure if it fully qualifies, but it has those features.
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Abram Jones

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Re: Seeking Dynamic Economic Games
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2024, 10:42:22 pm »

Inflation and deflation of the currencies depend on trade (+ non-dynamic global inflation rate over the years). Debt is from a static entity.

To fulfill the currency mechanic a feature that changes the fundamental value of the currency directly is needed. Changes in price as a result of trade is more on the commercial side of the equation.

Thanks for the detailed information, it helps a lot when I'm trying to figure out if a game qualifies for the list or not. With the way you described how coins work it sounds like this game may qualify as a result of having dynamic currency, which is very rare for games. Can you explain further about the deflationary spiral as a result of trade imbalance? What is the mechanism that creates this deflation? Do villagers just decided to lower prices because of the lack of coins or is it something else?

Also, could you elaborate on taxes, government, the church, and its relation to the game population. I'm assuming the player acts as the government. Do they control the church too, or is that done by NPCS? Also, is the entire population NPCs that act on their own as if they are individual players, how does that work?

I will be reading the manual too, but any information you can provide from a player's perspective will be appreciated.
The player acts as the "lord" and is responsible for zoning, choosing which families to accept into the village, setting taxes and trade policies, etc. So yes, they're the local government. The individual villagers are not agentic in the same way as the player: they autonomously work on their assigned plots, engage in commerce by visiting the market or storefronts, consume food, etc. The basic unit of organization is the "family" which is a group of related villagers who share assets. So you might accept a family of farmers, zone a farm for them, and assign them the farm (with one of the aforementioned types of feudal contract determining the manner in which they're taxed: fee-farm, stewardry, socage). As an example, you might set the farm's contract to "socage", and require they pay you and the church 10% of their produce seasonally. Notably, they don't "own" the land (you are the feudal lord and thus own all the land), they are simply authorized to use it according to the terms of their feudal contract. You can void these contracts and assign the zones to other families as you please. The player can also impose production limits, telling them which crops they're permitted to plant, etc. Feudal contracts are per plot and a family can be assigned multiple plots, each with different contracts (and thus obligations): you might zone residential areas under the "fee-farm" contract, requiring tax payments in coin (as residential plots don't produce goods).

If this game qualifies for the list it would also receive the sovereignty bonus as a result of these mechanics.

Prices are set via a simulated order book where villagers place buy and sell orders based on their needs: for example, if a family has low food stores, then they'll be willing to pay more for bread. If their food stores are empty and they're starving, then their bid can rise up to the limit of their available wealth. I am not 100% sure of the exact implementation here, I'm just going off of what the tutorial states and what I've observed. The result is that prices are dynamic enough that if too much coinage has exited the village's economy (through, e.g., excess imports) the low supply of coins will exert downward pressure on all prices (villagers won't place buy orders they can't afford: there is no debt). The reverse, where there are excess exports (or too much minting) can lead to inflation of prices, but this is generally not a problem, as there are external money sinks, in the form of the King's Tax (which is the "challenge" element of the game: you must make tax payments yearly, either in coin or goods, and the amount he demands increases over time) and imports from travelling merchants.

The church is treated as, basically, a large "family" -- all their assets are shared amongst the clergy, who act autonomously, as any other villager. You cannot tax them, but they exist on the map and interact with your village's economy. Each "feudal contract" has a slider for how much tax they're required to pay you, and how much they owe to the church ("tithe"). The church will be unhappy if their tithes are too low, which can cause its own problems. In the case where the church is receiving tithes in kind rather than coin (for "socage" contracts), this might result in the church accumulating a surplus of goods it has no use for (jewelry, livestock, flour, etc), which, as it is agentic in the same manner as the villager families, it can then sell back to villagers or export. Villagers generally avoid selling goods for less than it cost them to produce, but the church has no such qualms when it comes to liquidating its tithes, which can apply undesirable downward pressure on prices. The clergy can also engage in their own specialized industries (bookbinding, medicine, winemaking, and some others) to help keep itself afloat, though in practice they're heavily reliant on tithes.

The player is represented on the map as a "noble family" made up of the lord, their immediate family, as well as servants and guards (recruited from the villagers: you can set their salary and they will remit a portion to the family they were originally from). They require food, clothes, a home with beds, etc, and are responsible for collecting taxes (and storing them, in the case of goods). They exist to answer the question of: what do you *do* with the taxes you receive. They don't engage in any form of production, so you can think of them as another resource sink, though you can, for instance, tell them to set up a market stall and sell back your taxed goods. You can set up buy/sell orders for each good, to establish price floors or ceilings (provided your treasury can absorb the costs). You can also ban villagers from transacting with travelling merchants and completely control all imports/exports manually. The local market and the external market are separate, so you can also profit via arbitrage, e.g., buying cheap foreign clothes and reselling them at a premium to your own villagers (though this might cause problems for your local tailors, if you have any).

Thanks for this additional information, it sounds like this game has a lot of potential.

I guess the only thing I am confused about is as how coins are made from the precious metals, do you know anything about that? I couldn't find any details about this element of the game.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2024, 10:44:45 pm by Abram Jones »
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McTraveller

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Re: Seeking Dynamic Economic Games
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2024, 09:11:52 am »

To fulfill the currency mechanic a feature that changes the fundamental value of the currency directly is needed. Changes in price as a result of trade is more on the commercial side of the equation.

I don't want to derail the thread too much, but can you expand on this? What is the value of a currency except in relation to trade?  Do you have a concrete example of what a "direct change in the fundamental value of a currency" would be to help us understand?
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Abram Jones

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Re: Seeking Dynamic Economic Games
« Reply #23 on: Today at 07:20:26 am »

Check Shop-Like on Steam. I'm not sure if it fully qualifies, but it has those features.

I wasn't able to find a game manual but from what I can tell it doesn't look like it would qualify. From the little information I was able to find, it looks like the stock market does not involve any companies directly involved in the game and it appears that debt involves borrowing from a static entity. I could be wrong because I couldn't find many details.


To fulfill the currency mechanic a feature that changes the fundamental value of the currency directly is needed. Changes in price as a result of trade is more on the commercial side of the equation.

I don't want to derail the thread too much, but can you expand on this? What is the value of a currency except in relation to trade?  Do you have a concrete example of what a "direct change in the fundamental value of a currency" would be to help us understand?

I don't think you are derailing the thread at all. The currency mechanic would most likely be something that would involve the creation and removal of currency by a player or NPC, and this action would impact the value of the currency through market value or an equation that considers some type of economic parameters in relation to how much currency there is. Basically, this would impact values of other goods and services in the game. Also, the mechanic must have its own unique attributes/limitations relative to other game elements. So think of a function that is separate from other functions that increases the currency supply and that can be strategically triggered.

The most basic example would be a game where different players and/or NPCs run businesses in a region's economy. This region has a government that can issue the region's currency which is used as a medium of exchange. The government is controlled by a player or NPC. Once this supply hits the system it would change prices as a result of market value because players would react to the larger amount of currency in this system.
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McTraveller

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Re: Seeking Dynamic Economic Games
« Reply #24 on: Today at 09:25:31 am »

Ok so with that definition, PU does indeed have "dynamic currency".  There is one mechanism by which currency gets "created" by players, and this is injected into the economy via two market effects.

The mechanism is:  for a select few commodities in the market, the NPCs (governments) of each of the four "factions" have infinite buy orders at some fixed price.  There are two general classes of commodities which have infinite buy orders: economy-starters and wealth-builders.  Economy starters are like the NPC governments willing to buy an infinite amount of Hydrogen at one currency unit per unit of Hydrogen.  Wealth-builders are the NPC governments willing to buy a commodity that is difficult to produce (requiring a lot of inputs and supply chain) for a high price; say, one unit of High Tech Widget for 50000 currency units.

So what happens is, when the universe is young, not enough people have cash to buy things, but they are making a lot of basic materials, so they sell those basic materials to the NPCs to get some cash.  But as soon as people have enough cash, people are going to start buying commodities for higher prices than the NPC price: if I need Hydrogen to make my factory work, I want to buy the Hydrogen and so to get it instead of the NPC getting it, I have to offer something like 1.10 currency per unit of Hydrogen.

As the universe matures, people want more money, so they build more complex supply chains to be able to make the "wealth-builder" items.  These items are not usually in demand by the players, so the people making them can sell to the NPC at the "low" NPC price.

On the flip side, there are a few currency sinks: any market transaction has a tax; if the NPCs take the tax, that is a currency sink. Renting NPC station space I think is also a sink.  On the market side, if there is really too much currency floating around, if production from the player base is not high enough, the NPCs do have a few commodities they will sell an infinite amount of at very high prices.  For example, the NPCs might sell 1 unit of hydrogen for 100 currency units.  So if the players have such a high demand for Hydrogen, and enough currency in their bank accounts to afford it, they'll buy up all the player-produced Hydrogen and then have to pay 100 currency/unit to get it from the NPCs.  But very quickly, people might start producing hydrogen, because they can sell it for 99 currency/unit, etc.

So this to me is dynamic currency - players control the money supply by making goods to increase the supply so much the price drops to the NPC "create money" price (players need money, not goods) and by buying goods at higher and higher prices until the prices rise to the NPC "destroy money" price (players need goods, not money).

It's also fascinating because there are four independent currencies, only linked by the forex market and through trading of actual commodities.  So currency A might be 3 units per Hydrogen, but currency B might be 5 units per hydrogen.  What's really fun is that the forex trade, though, might not be in that 3:5 ratio, which means there is significant opportunity for making profit off the differences.
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