* Brewing and Cooking Requires Fuel - Cooking and brewing should require wood or some other fuel.
Variety is the Spice of Life - Eating or drinking too much of the same thing should give dwarves unhappy thoughts.It already does. I've fed my dwarves beer for a season. They got unhappy thoughts from drinking the same old booze.
You missed the point of the links, which is to link all those community ideas on the topic into one place.The frequent cries of "duplicate post" in these forums caused me to miss the intent of your having posted the links. I tried to make sure to follow the threads mentioned earlier in other cooking threads, hopefully I managed to get them all, but if you see a suggestion missing please let me know.
Also, you should delete the ideas that are already implemented in game. Specifically, the "Variety is the spice of life" already exists both for food and for drink, and the "Determining Meal Value" exists and has always been calculated as suggested. Both of those ideas are part of the game, and are not suggestions for improvement or change; hence they should be removed.
QuoteVariety is the Spice of Life - Eating or drinking too much of the same thing should give dwarves unhappy thoughts.It already does. I've fed my dwarves beer for a season. They got unhappy thoughts from drinking the same old booze.
Brewing shouldn't require fuel, or at least brewing beer and wine shouldn't. Having personally done both I can safely say that that you don't have to use fire. Sprirts should though, for the still.Noted. I've removed brewing out of the fuel requirement suggestion, since "some do and some don't" seems like it would be confusing.
Additionally I think caravans should purchase some food, they have to eat on thier to the next fort and I'm sure they wouldn't be above buying a few luxury foods as a treat, espically if they do a lot of trade at your fort. Also this could lead to a new sub type of food, food that is designed to last a long time, salted meat, beef jerky, candied items etc etc which they would buy to sustain them for the whole trip/ still sellable at the next fort (though who would buy them is questionable). Also i think parmasan cheese kept for a hell of a long time (although I could be wrong)Salted and smoked items are included in the suggestions. They would not spoil and could be traded. General consensus in suggestion threads seems to be that in-game cheeses are hard and should not spoil. Thus they could also be traded in bulk.
Also some dishes do use the same ingredient in several ways ie minced and sliced beef.Noted. I've modified that line to try to cut to the heart of the original intent, to eliminate "this is a plump helmet roast topped with plump helmet slices, in a plump helmet sauce, served on a plump helmet".
The whole point of making Lavish luxury meals is to sell them. The payoff is in their great value, as measured in dwarfbucks/barrel. So the idea of preventing sale of lavish meals (Trade Only Raw Ingredients) is counter to the goal of producing high-value food. It is also a step in the wrong direction economically, by attempting to curtail business in order to cut down on player wealth. Bad idea all around.Some players have argued that the extreme value of cooked foods borders on an exploit, and decreases the difficulty of later game economy in a way that detracts from the "fun".
It is a game, and the player needs rewards and payoffs in order to continue playing. Feed the player. If the player happens to have huge amounts of dwarfbucks, the reasonable solution is to give the player some way to spend that wealth.
Determining Meal Value - The value of a meal is already determined by the number, cost, and preparation skill of it's ingredients. See the wiki entry on Value of a Prepared Meal (http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/40d:Kitchen#Value_of_a_prepared_meal)Noted. I've moved the text about spice value into the renamed "logical ingredient value" suggestion.
Recent threads on cooking:
[huge list]
Infact, maybe it could be that the higher someone's skill level is better they want their food? (Or the better food they'd want to eat). So player would want to increase the general quality of their food supplies to attract more valuable immigrants.(Infact, you could also apply this to other similar factors like clothes and furniture)(Though, for balancing you'd need an insane wealth to be able to attract highmaster or legendary immigrants through this system)The whole point of making Lavish luxury meals is to sell them. The payoff is in their great value, as measured in dwarfbucks/barrel. So the idea of preventing sale of lavish meals (Trade Only Raw Ingredients) is counter to the goal of producing high-value food. It is also a step in the wrong direction economically, by attempting to curtail business in order to cut down on player wealth. Bad idea all around.Some players have argued that the extreme value of cooked foods borders on an exploit, and decreases the difficulty of later game economy in a way that detracts from the "fun".
It is a game, and the player needs rewards and payoffs in order to continue playing. Feed the player. If the player happens to have huge amounts of dwarfbucks, the reasonable solution is to give the player some way to spend that wealth.
For what its worth, I agree that the food industry needs to be a viable way of driving an economy. It seems like we could have both realism/verisimilitude and still retain the food industry by giving players ways to prepare food for long term storage and transport. (Finely smoked salmon jerky, and the like.) If travelers/visitors are ever included, selling ready to eat meals to them would be viable as well.
Requring fuel? No...
Plus there's the extra-Fun option of Magma Kitchens.
Still, it should be in the list.
Spoilage - several techniques have been mentioned for extending the lifespan of food: Smoking, salting, pickling, packing in ice from an icehouse, and drying, to name a few. For the prepared meals, it might be that Lavish meals have a short lifespan, and simple meals have a long lifespan.
If a lavish meal spoils in a couple weeks, there's no point in storing up huge amounts of them. You might commission your chef to put on a lavish meal feast when the caravan arrives -- and that seems perfectly reasonable in role play terms. But for the bulk of the food storage, maybe Simple meals are mostly dried/candied/smoked/pickled stuffs that are meant to last.
[snip]
Yes, I realize I could easily mod this in with custom reactions or something. If nothing else, I hope there will at least be a distinction between spirits and brewed drinks. Spirits could even be used in medicine!! :)
There should be more variety of levels of cooking
Sure you could do all cold serve immediately food, but it will be lower quality than that with fuel -- less happiness or whatnot.
There are salads, but I'd rather not have to eat uncooked salad for the rest of my life -- even pickled salads would get old. Hey, with ice you could make ice cream.
But, if cooking were an absolute need (due to depression spirals) I think it would essentially make deserts and the like 100% unlivable.
Good work summing up all the ideas in one post
I personally think that the list should include "communal cooking", from the "down with prepared meals" thread (if not others as well). TV dinners seem unrealistic and boring. Eating in taverns or all together in the dining hall would be more cool and dwarfy. Cooking would be more of a full-time job then, and making high quality food for everyone in the time alloted would require multiple cooks or a very skilled one. Dwarfs who get too hungry too early and dwarfs working too far away can still scrounge simple foodstuffs like before, but may get a bad thought.
To me, this seems like a bigger improvement than adding complexity to recipies, though I realize it would mean significant changes to dwarf behavior. Still, it should be in the list.
I was thinking that rather than simply simple vs. lavish, that you had two quality levels of preserved food, and a few levels of serve immediately. That way if somebody were to stockpile for various reasons they don't have only junk. There is a difference between jerky that is essentially a piece of meat somebody left that happened to become dry [even if it was purposeful] and hickory smoked jerky.
Spoilage - several techniques have been mentioned for extending the lifespan of food: Smoking, salting, pickling, packing in ice from an icehouse, and drying, to name a few. For the prepared meals, it might be that Lavish meals have a short lifespan, and simple meals have a long lifespan.
If a lavish meal spoils in a couple weeks, there's no point in storing up huge amounts of them. You might commission your chef to put on a lavish meal feast when the caravan arrives -- and that seems perfectly reasonable in role play terms. But for the bulk of the food storage, maybe Simple meals are mostly dried/candied/smoked/pickled stuffs that are meant to last.
If some of the changes are added in, do you really think the terms to make food will still be simple, lavish, etc etc? It might change to other things, to a different type of option.In a detailed implementation, the rather arbitrary categories of Easy, Fine and Lavish should probably be replaced. I like the idea of "Hot meal" as a category. It could be that the base ingredient that determines the type of meal has a qualifier for the type of meal, as suggested in the "Cooking Overhaul" thread.
Forgive me if it's already been mentioned in this thread, but a long time ago I suggested two separate reactions for alcoholic drinks:
1) Brewing- should be do-able in a kitchen if you have a barrel (and ingredients, water, etc.)
2) Distilled spirits- done in a still; you turn a brewed mash into high-alcohol spirits in a process that might require fuel. To make things simpler, instead of having mash as a middle-product (this is not unthinkable when you realize how complicated soap making is...) you could simply have them turn brewed drinks into spirits at a ratio of say 3 barrels of the former to one barrel of the latter. For instance, dwarven wine is brewed into dwarvish brandy, dwarven beer or ale brewed into whiskey, sunshine brewed into elvish cordial, etc. etc.
Just thought I would put that suggestion back in here... ;)
Yes, I realize I could easily mod this in with custom reactions or something. If nothing else, I hope there will at least be a distinction between spirits and brewed drinks. Spirits could even be used in medicine!! :)
[snip]
Yes, I realize I could easily mod this in with custom reactions or something. If nothing else, I hope there will at least be a distinction between spirits and brewed drinks. Spirits could even be used in medicine!! :)
Spirits, especially if it's important to age them properly, would also turn into a great long-time-to-set-up-but-really-valuable trade good.
Another thing - dwarves should have more or less-developed palates, and nobles should probably have a class preference for the fine and finicky. Urist McSchmoe, who doesn't really care about the finer points of *Dwarven Whiskey* or *Dwarven Cheese And Ant Brain Omelette* is happy as long as his beer and stew is of Average Quality. But the Baron, and dwarves with a preference for fine dining should get happier thoughts from lavish meals, but require higher-quality food to avoid unhappy thoughts from eating like a peasant.
There should be an appointed "Head Chef" noble who opens up more options related to cooking - perhaps allowing the player to call morale-raising feasts, schedule meals on the menu and allow more exotic dishes to be cooked.
Nobles should probably demand their own cooking services, perhaps provided by the Head Chef.
In a detailed implementation, the rather arbitrary categories of Easy, Fine and Lavish should probably be replaced. I like the idea of "Hot meal" as a category. It could be that the base ingredient that determines the type of meal has a qualifier for the type of meal, as suggested in the "Cooking Overhaul" thread.
Maybe making a Hot Meal with kitten meat, dwarven flour and cheese produces kitten meat pie (sheppard's pie), which has a rapid spoilage but a high value. Making a cold meal of these ingredients in the same order might produce a kitten sandwich with cheese. And preserving with the same ingredients might make a smoked kitten meat bun, which would have some shelf life.
Hmm, yes "Make Hot Meal" task would be pretty cool. The hot meals could simply fill up the communal kitchen as a "counter" or sorts (sort of like how smelting objects fills a counter until a certain number is reached, and then an ingot is made) and dwarves would come and take food from it for as long as the counter is "charged". However, there would be slow and steady spoilage which would cause the counter to slowly (or quickly?) go down.
It might also be cool if dwarves could cook food in their own quarters. However I imagine a huge disaster if dwarves take 5x as long to finish a meal as they do now. :)
Water Source - Bad (pond) water lowers the quality of booze made with it.
QuoteWater Source - Bad (pond) water lowers the quality of booze made with it.
Weren't alcoholic beverages safer than water for a long time because the booze killed off any germs that might be in there? I'm not sure that this fits with that.
QuoteWater Source - Bad (pond) water lowers the quality of booze made with it.
Weren't alcoholic beverages safer than water for a long time because the booze killed off any germs that might be in there? I'm not sure that this fits with that.
QuoteWater Source - Bad (pond) water lowers the quality of booze made with it.
Weren't alcoholic beverages safer than water for a long time because the booze killed off any germs that might be in there? I'm not sure that this fits with that.
Well, from what I know, beers made from spring water have a better reputation then beers made from faucet water. Infact, a lot of european beers stay small mostly because they prefer to make their beers from specific springwater.QuoteWater Source - Bad (pond) water lowers the quality of booze made with it.
Weren't alcoholic beverages safer than water for a long time because the booze killed off any germs that might be in there? I'm not sure that this fits with that.
Very true, but skunky water makes for skunky beer.
It would still be safe to drink, but it wouldn't taste good.
this is indeed true, and was recoginised and follow right up to the 19th century. Lokk at the tb outbreak in london, if was traced to a pump that whos water was contaminated, but the brewery which was next door was fine as the workers drunk small beer (very weak beer) instead.
Make cold meal is also an option for saving on wood so I think there should be a fancy and therefore spoilable meal [or at least a ruinable meal]
Good suggestions. Hot meal vs cold meal has gotten its own item, under the newly titled Storage and Preservation section titled Hot and Cold Meals. It also adopts the second part of your idea, with one tweak: cold meals are always made out of preserved foodstuffs (so they'd always keep). The idea there being that the player, when selecting "Make Cold Meal" is almost certainly trying to set something aside that their dwarves can eat much later, and it seems a bit cruel that Urist McCook will screw up their plans by including some random fresh ingredient.
Well, from what I know, beers made from spring water have a better reputation then beers made from faucet water. Infact, a lot of european beers stay small mostly because they prefer to make their beers from specific springwater.
Similarly, Heineken, a faucet water beer is avoided by people who drink beer for the taste because it tastes like mildly bitter water, or more commonly described 'sewage'.
So I suposse it would be cool if taking water directly from a spring can give the beer made with it a boost, or even give the beer a local name.
Make cold meal is also an option for saving on wood so I think there should be a fancy and therefore spoilable meal [or at least a ruinable meal]
Good suggestions. Hot meal vs cold meal has gotten its own item, under the newly titled Storage and Preservation section titled Hot and Cold Meals. It also adopts the second part of your idea, with one tweak: cold meals are always made out of preserved foodstuffs (so they'd always keep). The idea there being that the player, when selecting "Make Cold Meal" is almost certainly trying to set something aside that their dwarves can eat much later, and it seems a bit cruel that Urist McCook will screw up their plans by including some random fresh ingredient.
...
What if there was different workshop kitchens. Like...
...
New drinks would be nice, but until we can get new ways of getting drinks. (seriously, barreling water would be nice just to store it!)
I think I know how this would work in modding.
How to make a food that is not yet kooked but can be implemented in special dishes(Like bread)
(snip)
That is about as far as I could get. I'll work on spices and other stuff next. You can play with the idea if you want but remember- I OWN YOU!!! :P .
I have a small idea myself due to all these thoughts.
What if there was different workshop kitchens. Like...
Small kitchen: 1x1, Can make only "Hot meals". To be used by dwarves in rooms. Mainly stews (think of it as a small pot over fire). Can be translated over to adventure mode as well. This one makes less sense in dwarf fort mode though. Maybe instead it could be be used by military personal, to make their own meals on patrol.
Better equipped: 2x2 or 3x3: Able to make cold meals, longer lasting meals and such. This is what would use preserved foods, able to make either hot meals, or longer lasting preserved/package meals for storage and eating on the go such as military, or for dwarves to carry on their person. (Such as the day that dwarves can eat outside of the storage area, or dining room)
Preserving room: (Insert better name here) able to preserve food, either by adding salt to food types, canning (if allowed) Freezing (requires ice blocks, or sub normal temperature rooms, either by adding alot of ice, or eventual adding of colder cave systems) and the like.
Communal kitchen: 5x5 or 5x2, the sort that one would expect to be a "cafeteria" sort, with a stock of dwarves making food for hungry dwarves to eat without needing crappy cooks. Several cooks would stock the area, ready to take orders and give out meals. Able to make large "potluck" sort of large stews in huge canisters that can last sometime, and is able to stay stocked for when all your cooks decide to go !!Urist McCook!! or some other issue.
I've salvaged these from a few topics, but didn't see em on here. A few might be bad idea's, but it's some idea's anyways.
...
What if there was different workshop kitchens. Like...
...
This kind of spills into things in the interface revamp thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=34949.0 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=34949.0)) about making buildings, workshops and rooms work more like hospital zones.
Until then though, the "Small Kitchen" idea works really well if you make it a bit of furniture - call it a stove - that can be built out of rock or metal and added to a room. Put one into a room and dwarves can cook small meals there if they're hungry. The head chef could demand one in their dining room or quarters.
Another thing to think about - should tea and other hot drinks be implemented? Perhaps made from Valley Herbs or some other process->bag plants.
(But probably not Quarry Bush, if they're anything like a curry bush).
New drinks would be nice, but until we can get new ways of getting drinks. (seriously, barreling water would be nice just to store it!)
Water barrels, and the ability to buy/sell same would be just plain necessary if you need water to brew. And it doesn't look like buying and selling water has been put into the OP list yet. So that should be an option, especially in desert areas, as well as making it so murky pools don't evaporate to nothing three weeks after you set up shop in a steaming hot swamp.
but penalizing more militant
Also, if we have taverns we MUST have bar fights as well.
a very small inclusion, for preservation we should also be able to use honey to preserve foodstuffs (when honey is added). I'll addmit that this will only be useful for very certain items mainly fruit and nuts but I swear I've heard of other things (meat etc) but I can't find proof so if anyone else can way in on this I'd be grateful. Also honey itself can last for thousands of years if sealed in a container, egyption honey has been found that is still edible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candied
And I'm not sure if it falls under this threads scope but vinegar has been used throughout history as both a cleaner and (fairly bad) disinfectant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vineger
there should be "tattered" meals from lower leve;s trying something fancy.
This seal curry is overspiced it is hardly edible.
eating it provides a negative thought and it is worth LESS than its composite parts.
Reading over the class thread has got me thinking that a dining hall/cafeteria/tavern should have some kind of overall quality rating, based on the fanciness of meals and decor, and this should factor into the price of a meal when the economy (and possibly social classes) come into it.
If a cook is working in a low-quality cafeteria, they should be able to get lazy and make lower-quality meals. This way your dwarves won't get priced out of every dining hall.
And speaking of classes, dwarves' preferences for particular foods and drinks should be related to those of their friends and coworkers. If the Count, with his associated Countly preference for 30-year-old Whiskey, is best friends with Urist McSerf the Peasant, then the peasant should be able to pick up the Count's interest in fine liquor. It should also be possible for the Count to get a taste for raw plump helmet, or at least *plump helmet biscuits* if they're masterwork. Higher-class dwarves, or at least those with a more refined palette, should want better quality versions of simple meals (or whatever), but still be able to like plain fare.
All religions and nationalities have their own versions of "kosher" laws and food taboos. This might become more common when the religions are fleshed out more, but perhaps the followers of Dwarf God A would never dream of butchering a dog, while the followers of Dwarf God B would never eat a Plump Helmet based food or drink without the addition of a secondary ingredient. Happy thoughts would be generated or reversed by being allowed to conform to or being forced to reject these taboos, and a Grudge could be generated against those who transgress.I like the idea except for two modifications 1 not all religions/nationalities have dietary laws/food taboos -- only ones with enough resources to do so (excludes at least some of DF). 2 not all adhere to those laws/taboos so a less ardent worhipper should not care, while a more ardent worshiper would REALLY care -- perhaps to the extent of starving to death before eating vs. taboo.
How about booze coming in flavored variants? In the real world almost all beers are flavored with hops, and before hops were used there were a variety of herbs and berries which were used. Dwarven beer made with only cave wheat could be "sweet dwarven beer", cave wheat + cave hops = "dwarven beer", and so on. Allowable flavors, their names and prices would (probably) have to be specified in the raws, rather than being randomly generated like food recipes.
Plus, dwarves could have a preference for for a type of booze and a particular flavor of that booze. "Urist McDrunkard like dwarven wine and especially likes bush quarry flavored dwarven wine".
Are you referring to the loophole where you could cook roasts out of just booze? The game no longer allows cooking without a solid ingredient.
I'm saying liquids (or spices) should not add to the amount of food ...
I'm saying liquids (or spices) should not add to the amount of food ...
If I add a lot of water to pancake mix I get a lot of pancakes. A solid plus a liquid equalling two solids, and it works out just fine.
Try making pancakes without liquid and see what you get. Or try making soup, or an apple pie.But try eating the same amount in volume of soup as you normally eat. you'll probably still be hungry.
What I'm saying is that at least in some cases, liquids do add to the amount of food.
Then we disagree, plain and simple. In my opinion liquid used in cooking counts as food.Agreed to disagree, and Thanks harbor for putting it on the list.
Great list, I agree with everything but this: Water needed for brewing.
You only need water to produce beer/ale/lager/YouKnowWhatIHaveOnMind; other booze is made by squeezing the fruits (mushrooms, whatever), fermenting the product and then distilling it. No water included except for diluting and that is undwarvenlike.
The Oxford English Dictionary traces the first use of the word "pie" as it relates to food to 1303, noting the word was well-known and popular by 1362.And they were made since long before that, although flaky pastries with fruit are outside are post 1440.
There is Rock Salt, so it occurs to me that it may be possible to manufacture ice cream in this setting. It would be an EXTREME luxury item, but one that an entire civilization could decide is their crowning achievement (why wouldn't it be?)
.... a wildly prestigious activity.
There is Rock Salt, so it occurs to me that it may be possible to manufacture ice cream in this setting. It would be an EXTREME luxury item, but one that an entire civilization could decide is their crowning achievement (why wouldn't it be?)
.... a wildly prestigious activity.
Not without chocolate :P
There is Rock Salt, so it occurs to me that it may be possible to manufacture ice cream in this setting. It would be an EXTREME luxury item, but one that an entire civilization could decide is their crowning achievement (why wouldn't it be?)
.... a wildly prestigious activity.
Not without chocolate :P
There is Rock Salt, so it occurs to me that it may be possible to manufacture ice cream in this setting. It would be an EXTREME luxury item, but one that an entire civilization could decide is their crowning achievement (why wouldn't it be?)
Another thing: Pots, saucepans and other implements should be required for cooking, at least in Adventure mode.
It may make things more complex to need a pot (or whatever) in Fortress mode, but it's worth thinking about as a method of making it more difficult to prepare stews and roasts.
It may make things more complex to need a pot (or whatever) in Fortress mode, but it's worth thinking about as a method of making it more difficult to prepare stews and roasts.
2.)
Spoilage could depend on the biome. Food would spoil much faster in a swamp than it would in a desert or on a glacier climate.
Also, different options of preservation might only be possible in certain climates.
I'm thinking of drying especially.
Brewing shouldn't require fuel, or at least brewing beer and wine shouldn't. Having personally done both I can safely say that that you don't have to use fire. Sprirts should though, for the still.
Forgive me if it's already been mentioned in this thread, but a long time ago I suggested two separate reactions for alcoholic drinks:
1) Brewing- should be do-able in a kitchen if you have a barrel (and ingredients, water, etc.)
2) Distilled spirits- done in a still; you turn a brewed mash into high-alcohol spirits in a process that might require fuel. To make things simpler, instead of having mash as a middle-product (this is not unthinkable when you realize how complicated soap making is...) you could simply have them turn brewed drinks into spirits at a ratio of say 3 barrels of the former to one barrel of the latter. For instance, dwarven wine is brewed into dwarvish brandy, dwarven beer or ale brewed into whiskey, sunshine brewed into elvish cordial, etc. etc.
Just thought I would put that suggestion back in here... ;)
Yes, I realize I could easily mod this in with custom reactions or something. If nothing else, I hope there will at least be a distinction between spirits and brewed drinks. Spirits could even be used in medicine!! :)
How about booze coming in flavored variants? In the real world almost all beers are flavored with hops, and before hops were used there were a variety of herbs and berries which were used. Dwarven beer made with only cave wheat could be "sweet dwarven beer", cave wheat + cave hops = "dwarven beer", and so on. Allowable flavors, their names and prices would (probably) have to be specified in the raws, rather than being randomly generated like food recipes.
Plus, dwarves could have a preference for for a type of booze and a particular flavor of that booze. "Urist McDrunkard like dwarven wine and especially likes bush quarry flavored dwarven wine".
My thoughts on this are to expand liquor varieties. Adding lager and making ale a type of beer. Also hard liquor and fuel for all booze-making.
Edit: Also; not all alcohol should require water. There are some very cheap, disgusting forms of alcohol that are not made with any water, just fermenting juices and a yeast of some sort usually. Such things should probably have a high chance to cause ill effects in whoever drinks them (nausea, unconsciousness, etc.), but they should be an option for producing booze for your dwarves when you're lacking other options.
Also, very poor quality brewing should potentially cause severely bad effects, like blindness. That occurs when producing liquor without disposing of the waste of it. While highly alcoholic, the first stuff that comes out of a still is also insanely poisonous and has to be tossed away once it's done coming out (what comes next is the actual drinkable liquor that's less likely to kill you unless you drink way, way too much). Stills should maybe also produce fumes (and too close to a major heat source, like a forge, said fumes could ignite, if one wants to be real mean about it; though even the heat of the still can itself cause a very large explosion if the fumes are too thick; proper ventilation is extremely important).
Regarding stoves and work surfaces etc. Wouldn't it also be a good idea to have an option to put those in individual quarters so that dwarves had the option of preparing their own food and hot drinks? Purchasing raw ingredients from the Head Chef noble could be cheaper, but dining out could provide a happy thought as a result.
All this talk of alcohol brings something to mind that currently does not exist, and to my knowledge hasn't been discussed ever: Mixed drinks.ding ding ding!
Now, while as far as i know, they're a fairly recent invention, bear in mind that a society as dependent on booze as the dwarves, would probably develop them sooner. A practical use for them might be to stretch alcohol supplies, for example, Rum+fruit juice or water = grog. Which may really help a fortress low on brewable substances.
Around 100 they kept wine in clay jars and it became like wine concentrate so everybody mixed water with wine. It's probably too complicated to implement, but it's an idea for more time period flavor.Wouldn't be all that hard, given where we are with reactions at the moment; grog and small beer are certainly achievable in the current version, even if they'd be cheating a bit given the relative simplicity of making booze right now. And dwarves are going to start showing actual signs of intoxication in a future version, so having some relatively low-strength booze on hand might have advantages as well.
Around 100 they kept wine in clay jars and it became like wine concentrate so everybody mixed water with wine. It's probably too complicated to implement, but it's an idea for more time period flavor.Wouldn't be all that hard, given where we are with reactions at the moment; grog and small beer are certainly achievable in the current version, even if they'd be cheating a bit given the relative simplicity of making booze right now. And dwarves are going to start showing actual signs of intoxication in a future version, so having some relatively low-strength booze on hand might have advantages as well.
And speaking of which, religious prohibitions on certain food types should definitely extend to booze as well.
Another thing: Pots, saucepans and other implements should be required for cooking, at least in Adventure mode.
It may make things more complex to need a pot (or whatever) in Fortress mode, but it's worth thinking about as a method of making it more difficult to prepare stews and roasts.
Many people went exploring with little pots.Another thing: Pots, saucepans and other implements should be required for cooking, at least in Adventure mode.
It may make things more complex to need a pot (or whatever) in Fortress mode, but it's worth thinking about as a method of making it more difficult to prepare stews and roasts.
But you can cook over an open fire. And who goes adventuring with a giant pot? Tools shouldn't be compulsory for cooking, but they should make better food.
Blood - Dwarves should be able to use blood as an ingredient when cooking. Very dwarfy!
Storage and Preservation...
Communal Cooking - Hot meals prepared by cooks to be ready-to-eat at a communal serving area. When a dwarf gets hungry, they come to the dining hall and take a serving of "the meal of the day". Players could keep this area stocked with meals using the Make Hot Meal option. The meal queue would be reduced by dwarves taking meals from it and spoilage. When the economy kicks in, this could expand to the Tavern concept.
Alright, this was something from another thread, but there's no reason not to revive this thread to talk about this...
The problem I have with this thread isn't so much what is being discussed, but the format of the megathread, itself.
AngleWyrm went to the trouble of including links to all the threads that came before. This is something that should be done in each of the examples in the first post. The point is that you need to preserve the argument for (and against) the suggestions, not just a quick blurb on what you have boiled the suggestions themselves down to.
The suggestions themselves are almost meaningless without their arguments. They only have meaning when they are part of a cohesive argument for their function, and when they are capable of answering the arguments against them.
Simply listing "this was suggested once, somewhere" isn't really doing anything but telling people that someone, somewhere thought that was a good idea - you need to link to where, exactly, the argument for and against it took place, so that those arguments are actually readable. Otherwise, you're just recreating the problem of posting without searching - you raise a topic, while ignoring the arguments and discussion that came before.
Many (perhaps even the majority) of the suggestions that are listed at this point actually originated in this thread.
Around 100 they kept wine in clay jars and it became like wine concentrate so everybody mixed water with wine.
Glad I found this thread as I was about to repost a bunch of stuff from it. I still wound up with a wall of text after reading through the ideas here so I've broken it down with spoiler tags. There aren't any real spoilers here though, just a couple of bits that might spoil your appetite :P.
I'm pretty sure whiskey is post 1400
A hypothermia mechanic would have to be added. But I think that adding hot drinks would be a good addition, but dwarves don't seem to have much interest in drink non-alcoholic beverages, I guess it could be a supplement, or they might just all drink Irish Coffee!Everyone preferred beer or wine to water in those days, as it was less likely to make you shit uncontrollably until you died of dehydration, but even back then it was known that excessive alcohol consumption wasn't a brilliant idea either. Beer and wine are also rather time-consumping and complicated to make compared to coffee or tea, which require only boiling water and preferably some way of filtering the leaves or grounds out of whatever you're serving the beverage in. Lastly, there are plans to expand religious affiliations to include forbidding certain foodstuffs; it's not unlikely that alcoholic beverages will be included in that.
Since fermentation is mentioned in the first post, one of those little things that bug me is that we have Dwarven Ale and Dwarven Beer. Dwarven Beer bugs me, because ale is a beer. "Dwarven Lager" would have probably been a better choice. Most beers fall into one of these two major categories, ales and lagers.
A greatly oversimplified view of these categories is that lagers are typically fermented in colder temperatures and ales in warmer temperatures. So, if fermentation is to be added I'd like to see where the fermentation is done be a part of the style of beer. When the fermentation is done underground away from magma, for example, it might end up a lager. When the fermentation is done underground on a magma-heated floor, it might end up an ale.
Again, this is very much a simplified view of the differences between ales and lagers. You could get into different strains of yeast or how those strains are sourced, for example, and how they affect the outcome. This might be a nice middle ground, though, for slightly more realism without unabashed beer-geekery.
I'm pretty sure whiskey is post 1400
Whiskey is older. The first direct mention of whiskey (as aqua vitae...) is from 1405...
Distilled alcohol doesn't make gin, gin is grain alcohol which is redistilled with juniper berries and other herbs to give it flavour.
I'm pretty sure whiskey is post 1400
Whiskey is older. The first direct mention of whiskey (as aqua vitae...) is from 1405...
It may be nitpicking but aqua vitae is really nothing like whisky. The word whisky was used for various moonshines in Ireland and Scotland before being applied to the modern drink but that doesn't make it the same thing. What we now call whisky is matured in wooden barrels, by most definitions for at least 4 years. These barrels have usually been used to store other drinks first. America probably has as much claim to modern whisky as Ireland or Scotland as it was colonialism that made a lot of second hand barrels available.
P.S. I think Aqua Vitae was invented by the Persians or Arabs. Also I have no objection to post 1400 beverages being in the game myself. These are dwarves after all.