Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2]

Author Topic: Technical: How is (embark) neighbor determined exactly?  (Read 7150 times)

PatrikLundell

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Technical: How is (embark) neighbor determined exactly?
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2019, 11:13:08 am »

Well, it does match the observation with glaciers, to some extent. While it further muddies the issue, it's necessary mud. "A theory should be as simple as possible, but not simpler".
Logged

Shonai_Dweller

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Technical: How is (embark) neighbor determined exactly?
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2019, 03:43:21 pm »

Since there are reports of merchants in "no trade" embarks, I'm testing mine. No extreme temperatures, nice pleasant location, "no trade" zone. No hobbit traders in the first year. Will keep it going another year just to be sure.

Of course, lots of things block traders, so it's not a definitive check. I'm playing an extremely busy world and hobbits might have just been all killed while I was playing.

-- Edit
And a hobbit caravan turned up in year two. So no trade doesn't mean no trade. Or hobbits expanded and were able to overcome whatever the restriction was during the past two years.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 08:32:37 pm by Shonai_Dweller »
Logged

Fleeting Frames

  • Bay Watcher
  • Spooky cart at distance
    • View Profile
Re: Technical: How is (embark) neighbor determined exactly?
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2019, 09:16:51 pm »

Quote
Or hobbits expanded and were able to overcome whatever the restriction was during the past two years.
You could check this by retiring and seeing if another embark in previous No Trade place is still No Trade.

Shonai_Dweller

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Technical: How is (embark) neighbor determined exactly?
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2019, 09:31:11 pm »

Quote
Or hobbits expanded and were able to overcome whatever the restriction was during the past two years.
You could check this by retiring and seeing if another embark in previous No Trade place is still No Trade.
Yes. I will do that.
Will also compare the locations of hobbit villages now with maps from the start of game. I got a fair few messages about nearby hamlets being conquered.

--edit
Whole region square is still No Trade. Even when positioning the local square right on top of the fortresses. So, whatever it is, it doesn't seem to do anything.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 09:56:32 pm by Shonai_Dweller »
Logged

PatrikLundell

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Technical: How is (embark) neighbor determined exactly?
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2019, 06:33:03 am »

- Changing Kobolds to start in mountainhomes (CAVE_DETAILED) caused them to become visible and have a neighbor range of 30, as well as to expand. Keeping CAVE as preferred and tolerated sites (together with the dwarven one) allowed them to settle caves.
Caves settled are reported as "reclaimed" and to have been abandoned by an unknown civ in year 2. This has also seen with cave accepting humans.

- Hm, wiki quote (DF2014:Trading (modded civ section):
"[COMMON_DOMESTIC_PACK] - Allows the civilization to use domestic pack animals. If an entity lacks pack animals, it will be unable to send caravans (showing as No Trade at the embark screen), unless it has domesticated any suitable animal species".
The modded Hobbit civ presumably doesn't have this token, and so should show "NO TRADE" unless the display of it was also dependent on the absence of any suitable draft species (in addition to the condition the quote actually mentions).
Removing this token from elves showed NO TRADE for some elven civs but not others, as would be expected. I think we can write off the Hobbit lead as a false one brought forth through the puller only condition DF appears not to have anticipated.
Presumably, the tag is suppressed for civs (i.e. Goblins and Kobolds in vanilla) that are hostile by default.
As far as I understand from the wiki quote, NO TRADE should not be possible unless raws are modded. Since they're reported to have been seen in vanilla games, the conclusion would be that there are additional conditions or constraints that can cause it to appear (and, one would assume, take effect).
Logged

Shonai_Dweller

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Technical: How is (embark) neighbor determined exactly?
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2019, 05:10:18 pm »

Yes, "no trade" only appears on friendly civs that are unable to trade, never on enemy civs.
Hobbits only have one single civ, and are forced to have crocodiles present (who are wagon pullers, but not pack animals) and never have pack animals. It's just confused I guess.
Logged

PatrikLundell

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Technical: How is (embark) neighbor determined exactly?
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2019, 06:58:55 am »

I've reached the end of my investigations, and the first post has been updated to reflect the knowledge (and lacks thereof).

I've made a DFHack script to allow for fault finding and comparison with what DF thinks. It's not a "real" script, but an investigation hack, and so is lacking in various forms of quality.
Major notes:
- DF displays the embark entity type as always in reach, while the script uses calculated reach based on settlements.
- The script can't tell "live" necro towers from "dead" ones.
- The summary shows number of entities in each.
- Cycle the various entities with the "p"(revious) and "n"(ext) keys.

Neighbor script:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]