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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 2384286 times)

Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10785 on: May 30, 2014, 06:33:03 pm »

Well, there used to be a very well organized googledoc with most of the coming features, but it has since been deleted.

Wherever did you get that idea?

Witty

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10786 on: May 30, 2014, 06:47:44 pm »

That document is completely blank, on my end at least.
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Quote from: Toady One
I understand that it is disappointing when a dwarf makes a spiked loincloth instead of an axe.

Dirst

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10787 on: May 30, 2014, 06:50:35 pm »

That document is completely blank, on my end at least.
Don't exaggerate.  The document contains 11 carriage returns.

But otherwise it's blank.
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On hiatus. Feel free to adopt or update:
(0.42 & 0.43) The Earth Strikes Back! v2.15 - Pay attention...  It's a mine!  It's-a not yours!
(0.42 & 0.43) Appearance Tweaks v1.03 - Tease those hippies about their pointy ears.
(0.42 & 0.43) Accessibility Utility v1.04 - Console tools to navigate the map

smjjames

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10788 on: May 30, 2014, 07:22:57 pm »

That document is completely blank, on my end at least.

It's blank for me as well, I wonder what happened to it?
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LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10789 on: May 30, 2014, 07:30:06 pm »

Because the update it's so mind boggling that us, mere mortals can't even begin to comprehend it's deepness and importance, a thousand suns would be born and die in the time needed for our simple minds to understand it's greatness and universal encompassing. So no, it's not blank nor empty, we are simply incapable of deciphering it's true meaning, we are but children...

Yeah it's empty, anyway I'm guessing the change log will be pretty fat arsed and even then it will lack data.

In other news:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 07:54:17 pm by LordBaal »
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

thvaz

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10790 on: May 30, 2014, 07:54:45 pm »

I think Toady never does comprehensive changelogs.

That said, I won't sleep until we have a release. weeee
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Witty

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10791 on: May 30, 2014, 07:58:37 pm »

That's a lot months without sleep....
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Quote from: Toady One
I understand that it is disappointing when a dwarf makes a spiked loincloth instead of an axe.

Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10792 on: May 30, 2014, 08:01:08 pm »

I think Toady never does comprehensive changelogs.

That said, I won't sleep until we have a release. weeee

Check "file changes.txt" in your DF directory

smjjames

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10793 on: May 30, 2014, 08:17:11 pm »

Lol LordBaal. Really though, when did that document get blanked? I wonder if Toady One has access to it, but even then, why would he blank it out?
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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10794 on: May 30, 2014, 08:23:26 pm »

Many thanks to Putnam, Knight Otu, Footkerchief, smjjames, Manveru Taurënér, Dirst, Cruxador, Wimopy, King Mir, Karlito, Mr S, PeridexisErrant, Valtam, thvaz and everybody I missed for helping to answer questions this time.  There were quite a few that were answered, so please go back and check just after your question if you were skipped below!

Quote
Quote from: Malimar
With the huge number of new plants, will the seed limit be lowered or allowed to be changed by the player?
Quote from: Lolfail0009
how will the vast number of new plants' seeds be kept under control? Are some plants just not generated in a world?

I'm not entirely sure yet.  I'd rather not lower the per-type seed limit, since people might want to grow a lot of a single plant, but I don't know how various sorts of dynamic limits might work out, especially if a fort wants to change gears and switch over to a lot of a different single plant.

Quote from: Verdant_Squire
In a previous devlog, you talked about Military Dwarves running from the enemy if they are cowardly enough. Will it be possible to "Straighten out" and discipline the more weak-willed Dwarves in training so that they become a little hardier in combat?

If a creature experiences a morale failure where he wants to run away in No-Quarter combat, but any route that he could use to run away is blocked by enemies, what happens? Does he attempt to surrender again, turn into a weeping mess, or will the "Cornered Rat still bite the cat"?

There's nothing right now.  If I remember, we have an unused discipline skill that could theoretically be built by training later, though I don't know how much I should soften the effect from the first actual combat, if at all.  I think somebody pointed out that we still have that kind-of PTSD thousand yard stare variable, and that might need to be diversified or improved.

If I'm reading it right, it looks like if they get truly cornered, they'll turn around and fight for a bit before attempting to look for a way out again, even if they are experiencing morale failure.  Being in an active wrestle also allows them to fight.  Now putting all that aside, if they are experiencing a horror or fear based meltdown based on injury or so on, rather than a combat terror morale failure, they can turn into a weeping mess on the ground and might not react to the combat situation at all.

Quote
Quote from: CaptainArchmage
With the changes made to the world, are we going to see people retain their titles after leaving the map? For example, the Outpost Liason will retain his or her post after leaving the map after the caravan?
Quote from: Witty
Does the liaison bug patch also fix the bug where other historical figures are similarly "fired" when they arrive and than leave your map area (Human diplomats, generals, etc.)

Yeah, this all was just a bug that should be fixed now.  It was firing everybody that left the map as if they had gone berserk.

Quote from: Dirst
Can an adventurer irritate a faction sufficiently that even when it offloads into an army, that army decided to pursue the adventurer across the world map?

So there are different ways people can offload -- they can be at a site, or they can be in an army.  The armies have guards around their camps and they can break up into coordinated subunits during attacks, but while they are in motion, they don't understand how to dispatch units for dynamic tasks -- certainly that'll be changed in the future, and there's a master/subordinate framework for it, but I don't have the little independent thought loop necessary for them yet to check incidents out and so on.  Individual members of the army that are loaded can respond to your rep.  The site is different -- it has the necessary thinking, and they can dispatch new army posse thingies with the intention of hunting you down specifically if they think you deserve it.

Quote from: TastyMints
Will creatures react emotionally to butchery returns as if it were a piece of a dead creature's corpse? Can I butcher a historical Giant Dingo, eat it, and throw its heart onto a table in a tavern to show everyone it is dead?

Yeah, right now I think anything where it would display the historical figure's name can be used for recognition (oddly enough).

Quote from: tfaal
Now that people react emotionally to you killing their family, how will quests interact with this? If an townsperson's relative is a bandit, will they still give the quest to kill them? If so, how do they react if you complete it?

The relatives talk about who is causing trouble, and depending on the trouble type they can acknowledge relations (as before with certain night creature relatives), but I haven't hit all the cases.  If they don't hate their relative, then they can react negatively if you kill them.  They don't really give you quests about anything, but there will probably be some odd situations where the wording implies the wrong outcome that they'd prefer.  We'll get them sorted out over time hopefully.

Quote from: CaptainArchmage
Right, I see we have some changes to the contaminant stuff.

How exactly does this work? Does this mean we will no longer have permanently contaminated wells? Does it mean contaminants will dry up or disappear? Are we going to have more control about dwarves cleaning up areas, including outside aboveground buildings and courtyards?

I don't remember specifically what this was about, but I didn't change anything relevant to this that I remember.  There was the sweat/tear evaporation stuff, but that was a minor change.

Quote from: Putnam
Would it be possible to post the current state of, say, human raws? And to avoid any literal genies interpretations of this question, if so, please do.

Sure, here is the definition as it stands now:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: CrzyMonkeyNinja
Will the ability mentioned here be affected at all by the adventurer's memory and/or observation skill? And if not, is it planned to eventually be?

The bestiary stuff isn't affected by those, and it's a little dicey going too far in that direction.  To some extent, what can be written on a piece of paper next to your computer probably shouldn't be wiped out based on some stat, to avoid inconveniencing people, but there are probably exceptions which work out well enough.  I'm really not sure where the memory attribute is going to be used for player adventurers yet.

Quote
Quote from: Urist Da Vinci
Why did the dwarves make their way down from the treetops? Did any fail their climb checks and fall down to the ground, if that happens?

Under what non-combat situations will units climb?

Will dwarves stuck in holes try to climb out now?
Quote from: smjjames
Will dwarves climb down if they manage to get themselves stuck on a wall which has no access down?
Quote from: PigtailLlama
Has jumping been tested on NPCs yet? Sometimes it's easier and quicker to jump down instead of climbing...

Right now, if the dwarf can't find a place to wander around to (like the wagon or a meeting hall), it'll sometimes run the "acrobatic" routine to see if that gets it better results.  Theoretically that'll help stranded dwarves get themselves out of situations whether they are in trees or up on top of a pillar or in holes or whatever.  The acrobatic routine is expensive, so it isn't called in many other non-combat situations.  Climb checks can be failed, though I don't remember if any of the tree dwarves failed them (if they fell one tile they wouldn't have been injured most likely, so I wouldn't have seen it).  I haven't seen any super tragedies overall, but I'm sure people will find certain problems where dwarves do things that are not smart, and we can handle those as they arise during the bug fixing period, which should be reasonably entertaining to the extent that it isn't crashy.

NPCs only jump horizontally for CPU safety purposes, and I've tested that.  With a series of little pillars I made in the arena they were quite hoppy.

Quote from: smjjames
What do you mean by threat displays here? Like what frilled lizards do for example?

Yeah.  In general, our animals only have fight-or-flight, but the pre-fight/in-between interactions will probably be the most fun while exploring caves with procedural critters, for example.  I'm looking forward to seeing a strange-looking creature and not really knowing how it's going to react, and watching its behaviors unfold, and then having to deal with it with all of everything else going on.

Quote from: Valtam
Does this "cultural identity" affects directly which kind of management choices (e.g buildings, infraestructure, mining preferences) and conflicts involve these dwarves? Or is just for flavor measures and choosing the kind of engravings they might tend to carve?

It isn't for either of those things at this point -- it's more for managing a persistence of rumors and reputations as people move around.  There are still entities that manage what the overall culture means.  Entities have always supported differences from their raw definition, technically, but I haven't implemented anything like that yet.  When those kind of differences start going in, the identity stuff will probably be used to make more minor differences between same-raw entities that are different from each other, although it's difficult to say exactly which data structures will survive or how they will evolve.  I think at this point a single creature could eventually have different ethics/values at the civ-entity, site-entity, religious-entity, cultural identity and personal level...  and there'll probably be more entities they can be involved with all at once.

Quote
Quote from: EmeraldWind
Now that the same liaison will visit your fort will it be possible for some of the fort dwarves to eventually become friends with the liaison or are the liaison meetings considered strictly business?

I ask because since the liaison has contact with the same dwarf I'm curious if a friendship might build, but then again the meetings might not allow for the friendship to build.
Quote from: smjjames
Since the liasons don't show up as passing accquantiances, I'm guessing strictly business.

You do have a point though that a relationship between your dwarves and the liason would build up over time, even if things are strictly business.

The new conversation code has shaken things up a bit, so the liaison will probably be able to get passing acquaintance status now, but I think with the way it cycles them out over time if they don't get to full friendship, they might not ever build into anything.  I don't have a particular plan for changing it at this point, but it could afford to be more interesting.  Start scenarios/hill dwarves will also introduce some other off-site dwarves that regularly visit the fort (and the whole inn/tavern bit will probably lead to repeat visitors as well).  It'll be neat to see how the relationships between all those critters evolve.  Even now, any rep issues between the liaison and other historical dwarves can come into play, as uncommon as those might be.  I suppose it could be most pronounced if a former adventurer with a colorful career is appointed liaison or migrates to a fort.

Quote from: BenLubar
Has there been anything that could have changed the stability of renderers other than PRINT_MODE:2D between 0.34.11 and DF2014?

I haven't changed any of that stuff.

Quote from: neblime
When you retire a dwarf site (or if you mod other playable races) will the AI setup patrols around the site using civilians or military you chose? and/or will the existing barracks, routes and military status of dwarves be respected? (on that note will designated meeting areas or bedrooms etc be respected?)

when retiring a fort, will AI dwarves mess with lever status at all?  if you have a drawbridge say that controls the only entrance to your fort and leave it closed when you retire will the dwarves lower it when you're gone? (and if they don't will the game recognize that the fortress is inaccesible while it's abstracted?)

It respects the positions you've assigned, and that includes squads, but since the maps aren't loaded it doesn't really understand the minute details and will just use soldiers for whatever it wants after you retire.  As we mess all around with fortress retirement and see how it is working, what happens with squads might become more customizable.  I'm not really sure.

That's speaking in terms of the retired fort vs. world.  If you visit the fort with an adventurer, it won't respect your patrols or anything -- we still don't have npc schedules back, and the fort mode squad orders likely won't be compatible anyway (due to time scale differences etc.).  In the same way, they don't use the lever buildings at all.  There isn't really any attempt here to make an AI fort-playing thingy.  The game also doesn't understand if your fort is retired as a completely inaccessible trap, though it will try to keep caged beings in place upon load, and try to respect disconnected components a bit.
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Witty

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10795 on: May 30, 2014, 08:43:20 pm »

Lol LordBaal. Really though, when did that document get blanked? I wonder if Toady One has access to it, but even then, why would he blank it out?

Toady wasn't in charge of the googledoc. It was a fan complied list. After some nasty vandalism, the creator locked it down into comment-only mode. So only s/he could have deleted the doc, for whatever reason.

And thanks Toady for the response (very short this time round), squash them bugs dead!
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Quote from: Toady One
I understand that it is disappointing when a dwarf makes a spiked loincloth instead of an axe.

TastyMints

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10796 on: May 30, 2014, 09:42:10 pm »

Cheers Toady, waiting patiently.
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gabrek

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10797 on: May 30, 2014, 10:03:33 pm »

We love you Toady! Make us love you even more! ^_^
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Necrisha

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10798 on: May 30, 2014, 11:25:22 pm »

Quote from: Malimar
With the huge number of new plants, will the seed limit be lowered or allowed to be changed by the player?
Quote from: Lolfail0009
how will the vast number of new plants' seeds be kept under control? Are some plants just not generated in a world?
I'm not entirely sure yet.  I'd rather not lower the per-type seed limit, since people might want to grow a lot of a single plant, but I don't know how various sorts of dynamic limits might work out, especially if a fort wants to change gears and switch over to a lot of a different single plant. [/quote]

So, Does this mean you'd consider putting the per type seed limit as a configurable part of the init/d_init text file?
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EDIT: Keas restricted to tropical forests where they belong.  Those evil, EVIL, foul little things.
 
Edit: The baby murderer became a friend of the fortress, which started a loyalty cascade, and now most of the squad is dead.

Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10799 on: May 30, 2014, 11:48:09 pm »

It was pretty short this time.  I think there are fewer questions to ask when I'm just doing bug stuff.

Quote from: Necrisha
So, Does this mean you'd consider putting the per type seed limit as a configurable part of the init/d_init text file?

Yeah, I don't really have a problem with that.
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