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Author Topic: How do attributes influence skills?  (Read 3600 times)

Maklak

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How do attributes influence skills?
« on: January 11, 2013, 01:14:27 pm »

Can anyone point me to some research and formulas on how stats influence:
* The XP gained per job.
* The speed a job is performed
* The quality of an item
* Skill gains by military?

The consensus seems to be that stats matter, but other than for walking and fighting speed I haven't seen anything concrete on the subject.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 07:47:10 pm by Maklak »
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Telgin

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Re: How do state influence skills?
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2013, 01:19:46 pm »

I'm reasonably sure that attributes don't influence xp gain in anyway.  Those are just flat rates per job / swing I believe.

I'm also curious about the speed and quality of item production and how it's tied to attributes though.  The mental attributes are supposed to factor into those skill rolls somehow, but I don't think anyone knows the exact formulas.  I'd be happy to be proven wrong though.

Some hard numbers on how attributes increase from skill use and how they rust would be great too.
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Maklak

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Re: How do attributes influence skills?
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2013, 08:21:17 pm »

After a fruitless discussion on weather attributes influence the speed of working in workshops and the quality of produced items, I decided do my own research on the subject. I embarked in 31.25 (the newest version for which Runesmith works) and changed the carpentry skill and attributes to test it. The XP gained was always 60, regardless of skill and attributes, so it will always take the same amount of materials to train to Legendary +5. I measured the time units till task completion manually by pressing ".", so they might be slightly off. I've also noticed some small variation in task duration, even when I was measuring it precisely. I set all attributes to either 500 or 4000, depending on the test.

0 Carpentry, Attributes 500:   1300 frames, bed
0 Carpentry, Attributes 4000:  630 frames =bed=   This shouldn't even be possible with such low skill, so not only do attributes influence the duration, they affect the quality as well! That and the skill page on 40d is really outdated. I've noticed dabbling dwarves making quality items before.

10 Carpentry, Attributes 500:   490 frames =bed=; <520 frames, =bed=
10 Carpentry, Attributes 4000: 264 frames, *bed*; 263 frames, =bed= 

20 Carpentry, Attributes 500:   102, =bed=; 113, **bed**; 110, **bed**; 113, **bed**
20 Carpentry, Attributes 4000:  54 frames, **bed**; <60 frames, =bed=; 50 frames, **bed**; 53 frames, **bed**

The obvious conclusion would be that attributes determine the speed of the task, but to a lesser degree than skill. In this extreme case (it is unlikely to have a dwarf with 500 attributes or 4000 attributes) the difference from very low to very high attributes was about two times. I've noticed, however, that a weak dwarf was walking about once per 13 frames and a strong one about once per 6 or 7 frames. It got me suspicious as the speed seemed to correspond with how fast the task was done. The wiki says, Carpentry is influenced by the following attributes: Strength, Agility, Creativity, Spatial Sense, Kinesthetic Sense. For the final test I left Carpentry at 20 and attributes at 500, but changed Strength and Agility to 4000 to mimic the speed of the dwarf with high attributes. If attributes and not speed affect how fast a job is completed, then low Creativity, Spatial Sense and Kinesthetic Sense should keep it below what I got for the fast dwarf. Here are the results: 

20 Carpentry, 500 Attributes, 4000 Strength and Agility: 55 frames, =bed=, 50 frames, =bed=, 48 framse, **bed**, 50 frames, *bed*

This looks actually faster than for the dwarf with all attributes at 4000, but the quality looks lower. In particular, a Legendary +5 should only be able to make exceptional items, at least according to what the wiki says for 40d.

Well, in case of a Legendary+5 the difference from speed to using a workshop is pretty negligible, considering the time it takes to get there and fetch materials. Quality ant the time it takes to max out a skill, on the other hand, always matter.

Conclusions:
Speed and not attributes directly affect how fast a job is finished.
Attributes influence the quality of an item.
Experience per job is the same, regardless of attributes.
Skill matters much more, both for how fast a task is completed and for the quality of resulting item.
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DTF

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Re: How do attributes influence skills?
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2013, 08:36:20 pm »


Conclusions:
Speed and not attributes directly affect how fast a job is finished.
Attributes influence the quality of an item.
Experience per job is the same, regardless of attributes.
Skill matters much more, both for how fast a task is completed and for the quality of resulting item.

Before your efforts go unrewarded: Thank you for this piece of !!SCIENCE!!.

For me the most important point is: Attributes influence the quality of an item.
PLUS the dwarf's personal preferences or traits (e.g. "likes shields" -> armor smith) which also have a distinct effect on the quality.
It's the reason why I spend hours after hours before embarking to give each dwarf the job they are most suited for.

You really dont want an uncreative and unimaginative stone engraver ruining your fortress with countless engravings of triangles (might be justified if he has the name Pythagoras).
« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 08:37:51 pm by DTF »
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Telgin

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Re: How do attributes influence skills?
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2013, 10:23:15 pm »

Those are some very interesting results, thanks for going through the trouble of testing all of that.  I'm surprised to see that speed itself directly correlates to job completion time, I wouldn't have really expected that.  I wonder how that's going to change for the next version where combat has a speed split from movement, if it affects it at all.

I suppose I need to pay more attention to this sort of stuff rather than just assigning whoever is available to a job.
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Blue_Dwarf

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Re: How do attributes influence skills?
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2013, 02:43:47 am »

I had done a similar research (see my sig). Make sure to check the exp gain for jobs that produce more than one item, they shouldn't give you just 60 exp.

How did you calculate frames for each job? I was advancing the game step by step when doing something like that. I think it was around 80-120 steps for each job.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 02:52:57 am by Blue_Dwarf »
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i2amroy

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Re: How do attributes influence skills?
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2013, 02:50:48 am »

Those are some very interesting results, thanks for going through the trouble of testing all of that.  I'm surprised to see that speed itself directly correlates to job completion time, I wouldn't have really expected that.  I wonder how that's going to change for the next version where combat has a speed split from movement, if it affects it at all.
Speed has always influenced everything that a dwarf does (i.e. a more agile dwarf will perform all tasks faster then a less agile one), which is the reason why agility increases were the best ones back in 40d.

As for after the speed update, my guess is that movement speed will still probably determine work speed, since there is a good chance that Toady will simply write new code for the attack portions of speed and then keep the movement portion relatively the same.
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Maklak

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Re: How do attributes influence skills?
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2013, 03:56:21 am »

Quote
Attributes influence the quality of an item.

I also made some sharp rocks as an adventurer. Despite no skill at knapping, most of my sharp rocks had quality, including -, + and *. Of course I had high agility and some other stats, but it was unexpected. Sadly that game died due to lag after a few hours of exploring.

Quote
You really don't want an uncreative and unimaginative stone engraver ruining your fortress with countless engravings of triangles.

I hardly ever look at engravings, but their quality matters. This Dwarf could still smooth stone just fine, though.

Blue Dwar, than you for this. http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=96501.0 I've seen it before doing my own research and it weakened my faith in the 40d table for skills and quality.

Quote
How did you calculate frames for each job? I was advancing the game step by step when doing something like that.
I gave you the answer in my first post: >>I measured the time units till task completion manually by pressing "."<<. I might have made some errors counting the dots, or not notice a job completion for a few frames, but the results should be mostly correct.

As for speed, I've even noticed that workshops built by agile and strong dwarves in my experiment were completed faster, so it matters a great deal.

I have a few ideas for a more in-depth research on quality and speed from attributes and skills, but I haven't decided yet, if I want to press dots for hours.
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Blue_Dwarf

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Re: How do attributes influence skills?
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2013, 10:49:47 am »

Quote
How did you calculate frames for each job? I was advancing the game step by step when doing something like that.
I gave you the answer in my first post: >>I measured the time units till task completion manually by pressing "."<<. I might have made some errors counting the dots, or not notice a job completion for a few frames, but the results should be mostly correct.

Ah indeed :)

I must not reply to forum topics when sleepy.

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Thormgrim

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Re: How do attributes influence skills?
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2013, 11:27:38 am »

how can you see the personal characteristics of your starting 7 before embark?  I've often wondered at that...
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Maklak

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Re: How do attributes influence skills?
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2013, 11:30:58 am »

how can you see the personal characteristics of your starting 7 before embark?  I've often wondered at that...
I don't know. I just set them to whatever I wanted with Runesmith after embark.
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Vehudur

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Re: How do attributes influence skills?
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2013, 11:49:30 am »

oooh goodie science.  It's just missing magma.  Thank you very much for this contribution.

how can you see the personal characteristics of your starting 7 before embark?  I've often wondered at that...
I don't know. I just set them to whatever I wanted with Runesmith after embark.

+1 for proper runesmith usage.
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AoshimaMichio

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Re: How do attributes influence skills?
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2013, 01:30:08 pm »

how can you see the personal characteristics of your starting 7 before embark?  I've often wondered at that...
Dwarf Therapist.
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AfellowDwarf

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Re: How do attributes influence skills?
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2013, 02:02:01 pm »

how can you see the personal characteristics of your starting 7 before embark?  I've often wondered at that...
Dwarf Therapist.
Or just view them on the vanilla skill selector. Doesn't give you exact numbers, though.
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