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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1371327 times)

Th4DwArfY1

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5775 on: May 23, 2014, 05:23:43 pm »

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miljan

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5776 on: May 23, 2014, 05:31:16 pm »

Quote
Yes, russian will do it, as always they will kill them all. Heh. Wake up dude, you are really too much affected by propaganda.
Those are (exactly like) the ones who committed atrocities in Checnya. They are capable to do just anything. Open fire at a crowd, use chemical weapon, blow up the whole city. Any kind of warcime is possible

But hell if you want to believe Russian propagandas about spontaneously appeared benevolent militia with 96% support I am not gonna waste anymore time to try to change your opinion
Aha, they also used nuclear weapons there, with chemical weapons.

I dont need to look at russia propaganda, I just need to look at how thing are going to know that pro russian fighters have huge support in those regions.

You can keep repeating that its not true, but things are looking different.
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Graknorke

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5777 on: May 23, 2014, 05:32:10 pm »

To those who scorn UKIP out of hand:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9212811/ukips-triumph/
So a conservative paper is heavily supportive of a party that has furthered conservative causes.
What a shocker.
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Th4DwArfY1

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5778 on: May 23, 2014, 05:37:02 pm »

You honestly think the Conservatives support UKIP in any way?

EDIT: And where, exactly, do you get opposing views? Papers that support other parties that are losing to UKIP? Really, if you want to go propaganda, the three, though now it's four, major parties have been feeding it to you on a spoon. To all of us, in fact. It's up to us to read why they're saying that, and having a rival on their turf seems to be a good reason to want less people to like them, and therefore vote for them.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 05:46:01 pm by Th4DwArfY1 »
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Graknorke

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5779 on: May 23, 2014, 05:52:37 pm »

You honestly think the Conservatives support UKIP in any way?

EDIT: And where, exactly, do you get opposing views? Papers that support other parties that are losing to UKIP? Really, if you want to go propaganda, the three, though now it's four, major parties have been feeding it to you on a spoon.
Conservative as in the ideology, not as in the party.

As for your edit, I get views opposing UKIP's by not being horrifically xenophobic. It doesn't take much to now see:
Quote
This meant they rarely faced the problems of poorer parents, whose children find themselves in schools where scores of different languages were spoken in the playground.
as a problem at all. Unless you're referring to what news publication I read in which case I get my news from the BBC which, as much as I'm sure you'd disagree, remains as close to neutral as you're going to get.
The major parties are still winning over UKIP. Not winning by as much but winning nonetheless.
As for propaganda, I would disagree there. The government doesn't really have much control over the media with the exception of when they break the law, so distributing propaganda would be incredibly unlikely.
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palsch

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5780 on: May 23, 2014, 05:59:07 pm »

From the number's I've seen so far (all provisional/projected, often in arcane manners), UKIP's national vote share is down 6% on the similar elections last year. Both Labour and the Tories gained (2% and 4%) while the Lib Dems stopped most of the bleeding with only 1% lost (despite people claiming they would collapse after the EU debates and notably fewer candidates fielded than they have in the past). Those are the big numbers you look at when considering how things will play out in next year's Parliamentary elections.

Considering that UKIP's big draw is supposed to be the EU elections this should have been their most successful year. I'd take this result as a bad sign for their continued growth. Especially given this gives them even more councillors to screw things up for them. Sitting UKIP councillors (and MEPs) have a bad track record when it comes to party image.

UKIP took a lot of extra seats, but failed to take a single council. (At time of writing there are 11 left but I don't believe any are projected to go their way.) Labour made significantly larger gains despite slumping in voting intention polls.

Don't want to try to predict the EU results before they are published. There are a fair few factors that could complicate matters there, not least ballot design and the parties listed. Could be entertaining if the An Independence from Europe party take a significant number of votes anywhere. Because of the counting system even a relatively minor spoiler can cost seats.
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Th4DwArfY1

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5781 on: May 23, 2014, 06:12:33 pm »

And I get views supporting UKIP from not being horribly xenophobic. Where have I yet said anything xenophobic? And yet, miracle of miracles, I vote UKIP too. So, not everybody in UKIP or supporting UKIP is, what you called earlier, a massive racist.

As for "scores of different languages," I dare say that was merely a form of measurement, meant to show the numbers and subsequent strain on schools. Especially given they were talking about pressure on the NHS due to numbers in the sentence just before this.

And yes, the other parties are still in the lead, though the lib dems are just about scraping it. But, I wonder, how much of the population voting UKIP, as many have just done, will stop you from believing them all to be "horrifically xenophobic" and "massive racists?"

As for the media, the government doesn't have much control. However, it doesn't take much to see where political allegiances lie.

Ninja: Really, no one knows what'll happen. Just wait with bated breath and hope, whilst weathering the storm of media abuse!
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 06:14:23 pm by Th4DwArfY1 »
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Darvi

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5782 on: May 23, 2014, 06:21:15 pm »

Nobody ever said that UKIP voters are exclusively xenophobes. They might, however, want to rethink their priorities if they want to support an openly xenophobic party.
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misko27

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5783 on: May 23, 2014, 06:22:34 pm »

To those who scorn UKIP out of hand:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9212811/ukips-triumph/
You managed to turn my opinion of UKIP and Farage from contempt to outrage. This reads like a Tea-Party memo, but with xenophobia replacing the almost zealous dedication to weakening the government in every way, although they are factors in both. From what I know of such movements, and their pervasive and nasty influence over politics - which is hailed here as, what, a revitalization of the political process? "Competition?" Taking back your government? - I see only partisanship, polarization, and the weakening of the democratic system. I see the fringe. In the US, the main conservative party is warring, successfully, to marginalize and bring down this element, and in this I see only good.

I was worried about the far-right in Europe, now I fear for the future. America is over the hump, but it seems Europe has yet to face the tide.
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Graknorke

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5784 on: May 23, 2014, 06:28:32 pm »

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Th4DwArfY1

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5785 on: May 23, 2014, 06:39:52 pm »

It's not openly xenophobic, for one.

As for Misko's post, that article didn't show any xenophobia that I can interpret. It congratulated challenging other parties being encouraged to think issues through. It said that some of UKIP's actions have been "Lamentable," which some have been. Really, if you're worried abut the far right, worry about the BNP. Of course, it's not that signficant a presence, nor should it be.

I cannot see how you get outrage from an article extolling the virtues of encouraging other parties to think.

Ninja: Yes, I can say they exist to inspire something other than fear. They exist to get votes. But, regardless of propaganda (Essentially a hyped up version of fact, as all propaganda is), the border isn't controlled enough. This isn't xenophobic-this is either opinion or fact, depending on whether it's you speaking or me.

And if you add more people seeking jobs to a country, it follows that there'll be more people in said country without a job, be they British-born or not.
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GrizzlyAdamz

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5786 on: May 23, 2014, 08:23:07 pm »

Saying something is propoganda doesnt excuse its intention. And in this case, it is to inspire fear in order to get more votes. In particular, in focusing on the border, they are being xenophobic- there are better ways to tackle unemployment than 'keepim them dirty job-stealing foreigners out', so what are the other issues?

Also a fun issue in the US, where the race factor is a bit more poignant.
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Th4DwArfY1

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5787 on: May 23, 2014, 08:39:54 pm »

How is it xenophobic to focus on borders? Keeping in mind that xenophobia is an irrational fear of people from other countries. It is not xenophobic to say "we want tighter regulations on what comes in, not because of their country of origin, but because of their character. We aren't afraid of other countries, we just don't want to add to existing problems here." A person from Europe should have equal opportunity to get into Britain as one from America. Instead, Americans are discriminated against. I believe, as UKIP believes, that everyone should be allowed into the country using the same predetermined criteria, instead of being given admittance based on country, culture, or place of birth. It has nothing to do with the race issue.

Those posters are trying to highlight what problems, real-life problems, occur when you drop all restrictions on admittance.

These are two debates between Nigel Farage and Nick Clegg on the problem of the European Union.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hkhtn_NtDZM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fd9rsmD4HiM
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misko27

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5788 on: May 23, 2014, 08:50:17 pm »

And if you add more people seeking jobs to a country, it follows that there'll be more people in said country without a job, be they British-born or not.
Are you a Malthusian then too? No? Just foreigners then?
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Th4DwArfY1

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5789 on: May 23, 2014, 08:56:37 pm »

Misko, either give a point or stop trying to show me to be a foreigner-hater. I blatantly am not. The suggestion that I am is more than annoying to me, so either make a valid point or stop deliberately trying to bug me.
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