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Author Topic: Space Thread  (Read 125881 times)

Trekkin

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #2940 on: December 22, 2018, 09:49:47 am »

They're probably not getting back from that, certainly. If they are, you've got other problems!

I'm curious what way out from within the event horizon you see that justifies saying they only "probably" won't return.
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JoshuaFH

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #2941 on: December 22, 2018, 09:53:53 am »

-
« Last Edit: December 22, 2018, 10:11:47 am by JoshuaFH »
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LordBaal

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #2942 on: December 22, 2018, 12:02:23 pm »

You want to kill somebody with gravity? Feed him spoons of neutrino stars. Or drop it on the surface of one.
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

Kagus

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #2943 on: December 22, 2018, 01:09:34 pm »

They're probably not getting back from that, certainly. If they are, you've got other problems!

I'm curious what way out from within the event horizon you see that justifies saying they only "probably" won't return.

Magic bullshit shenanigans, probably of the plot variety, in which case there's nothing to be done except complete surrender.

Starver

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #2944 on: December 22, 2018, 01:24:02 pm »

Or take the opportunity to increase your Evil Overlord powers in a similar manner. After all, you can't spell "opportunity" without (most of) "plot"!
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Kagus

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #2945 on: December 22, 2018, 02:19:41 pm »

Or take the opportunity to increase your Evil Overlord powers in a similar manner. After all, you can't spell "opportunity" without (most of) "plot"!
Prot: A plot of Asiatic polpotions.


Was that offensive enough? I can do more...

Max™

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #2946 on: December 22, 2018, 05:01:39 pm »

You want to kill somebody with gravity? Feed him spoons of neutrino stars. Or drop it on the surface of one.
Neutron I think you meant, my head hurts trying to figure out what a neutrino star would be like.

You nerds need to level up your hard sci fi and dig into some Baxter if you want to nerd out on Fun And Exciting Ways To Abuse Physics Like A PS1 Game Engine... talking about killing someone with gravity and not going to starbreakers... I am disappoint.

What's it like being hit by lased gravity (how the...) you might ask?

Well, find something that can hold up to a hit first and I'll get back to ya.
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Engraved here is a rendition of an image of the Dwarf Fortress learning curve. All craftsdwarfship is of the highest quality. It depicts an obsidian overhang which menaces with spikes of obsidian and tears. Carved on the overhang is an image of Toady One and the players. The players are curled up in a fetal position. Toady One is laughing. The players are burning.
The VectorCurses+1 tileset strikes the square set and the severed part sails off in an arc!

Hanslanda

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #2947 on: December 22, 2018, 06:10:29 pm »

Step 1: accelerate two neutron stars to relativistic speeds
Step 2: let them collide with your enemy from opposite directions
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Well, we could put two and two together and write a book: "The Shit that Hans and Max Did: You Won't Believe This Shit."
He's fucking with us.

LordBaal

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #2948 on: December 22, 2018, 06:40:00 pm »

Lost in translation? I just thought that by employing a neutron star you at least could see the effects. It's too risky to simply trust and not see the person die, if all the bond villains are an example of anything.
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

Reelya

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #2949 on: December 22, 2018, 10:27:53 pm »

Well, surrounding a black hole is a quasar, the hottest and brightest things in the entire universe outside of supernovas; so before you can throw anybody into a blackhole for spaghettification, you'd have to quasar-proof them against what is something like 10 trillion degrees of heat they'd have to pass through first. I mean, that probably helps with the execution, but it's the spirit of the matter.



The cloest quasars are billions of lightyears away, which means they existed billions of years ago, but don't now. They're not some compact thing, they huge. Galaxy-sized. in fact, they were probably the precursors to modern galaxies.

What a quasar is, is a galactic nucleus, but there's a large accretion disk of gas an debris, which falls into the galactic center, causing a huge energy output. It's nothing to do with black holes in general, everything to do with how galaxies formed. So, you'd have to specifically be falling into a galactic center black hole that's perhaps billion of times as massive as the sun (far more than an average black hole) around 10 billion years ago. However, you'd die of old age or be killed by the radiation exposure long before you got to the point where you're noticing the space distortion from the black hole.

Also, if you're falling into such a large black hole, then the relative force between your head and your feet wouldn't be as great as it would be as if you were falling into a small black hole (large black hole's event horizon is a lot further out), so the subjective force of sphaghettification would be a lot different in a black hole huge enough to be part of a quasar. See wikipedia article on Spaghettification. Tidal forces are highest at the surface for very dense objects. Large black holes have a lower density - since a doubly massive black hole has twice the event horizon, so 1/4th the density.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2018, 10:48:06 pm by Reelya »
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Trekkin

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #2950 on: December 22, 2018, 10:49:30 pm »

They're not some compact thing, they huge. Galaxy-sized. in fact, they were probably the precursors to modern galaxies.

Quasars top out at around 106 AU in diameter, which is about 1/19th the diameter of even the smallest dwarf galaxies and about 1/2000th the diameter of the average 104-parsec galaxy. It's kind of lazy to say they're "galaxy-sized"
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wierd

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #2951 on: December 23, 2018, 12:36:47 am »

They're probably not getting back from that, certainly. If they are, you've got other problems!

I'm curious what way out from within the event horizon you see that justifies saying they only "probably" won't return.

There is a very (vanishingly!) small probability that 100% of their constituent particles will spontaneously quantum tunnel from inside the horizon, if they glance it JUUUUUUUUUUUUUST right.

Sure, the probability of that outcome is *SO* vanishingly small, that your odds of being destroyed by a spontaneously generated cloud of ionizing radiation powered exclusively by background fluctuations is orders of magnitude greater, but still not 100% certain.

So, only "Probably".  With very high confidence.
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Trekkin

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #2952 on: December 23, 2018, 02:03:24 am »

from inside the horizon, if they glance it JUUUUUUUUUUUUUST right.

Therein lies the problem. (Or rather, therein lies the problem not associated with quantum gravity. Whether Hawking radiation is actually due to tunneling across the horizon is unknown, but in this case superfluous.)

You can't actually glance an event horizon from the inside, because you always proceed inward. That's why it's a black hole in the first place. Just look at a relevant Penrose diagram; you'll notice that, if you'll let me be imprecise, the geometry flips around at the horizon so the singularity covers the whole future light cone. (Here's one that shows it.)

Now, you could argue that our helpful vacuum fluctuations could just spontaneously spew out a perfect copy of our victim as he's flung in, but that's not really escape, and for that matter that could happen anywhere.
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wierd

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #2953 on: December 23, 2018, 02:25:57 am »

Indeed; It "could" happen anywhere.

Which is why I said that your chances of being randomly irradiated to death by same said fluctuations is orders more likely. (since the resultant cloud does not have a necessity for a well ordered composition/arrangement of the produced particles-- and the locale does not require a black hole.)

Now, arguing that such a duplicate is in fact a duplicate, and not the original, is a bit like the quibbling about star-trek transporters being death machines or not. :P

As for trajectory of entry being a factor, it depends on if you are an ardent true believer of general relativity, or if you think quantum loop gravity is a thing.  If you think the latter, then things like this paper offer interesting alternative solutions.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0370269316306037

This is because quantum loop gravity obviates the need for a singularity at the center of the event horizon.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2018, 02:39:37 am by wierd »
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Trekkin

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #2954 on: December 23, 2018, 05:34:16 am »


Now, arguing that such a duplicate is in fact a duplicate, and not the original, is a bit like the quibbling about star-trek transporters being death machines or not. :P


This whole thing started because you decided to quibble about the difference between arbitrarily improbable events and impossible events, you know. You're technically right, but arguing that nothing is actually impossible is the secular equivalent of saying "God works in mysterious ways" (or, from upthread, Madman[numbers]' "you don't really KNOW anything") insofar as it's a rhetorical escape hatch with no actual predictive value. We're already well into quibble territory. :P

In any event, no, the impossibility of reaching the event horizon from within hasn't anything to do with the properties of the singularity;  technically such a region exists for any massive object, just like how anything has an innermost stable circular orbit. Black holes are just dense enough for it to be a region of space outside the object rather than a hypothetical region within the object (which of course doesn't exist because there's not enough of the object in it.)
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