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Author Topic: Brexit! Conversation Continued  (Read 182478 times)

Loud Whispers

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #855 on: November 10, 2016, 11:38:00 am »

Sorry, but I didn't get a consistent message from that. My inability, I'm sure. Not ignoring you, just don't actually know what to agree/disagree with you about.
Basically
1. Don't listen to polls. If they tell you that you are winning, work on the assumption that you are losing.
2. Don't be smug
3. Know who you are, know you you are facing, hear your critics

Dorsidwarf

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #856 on: November 10, 2016, 11:54:19 am »

Sorry, but I didn't get a consistent message from that. My inability, I'm sure. Not ignoring you, just don't actually know what to agree/disagree with you about.
Basically
1. Don't listen to polls. If they tell you that you are winning, work on the assumption that you are losing.
2. Don't be smug
3. Know who you are, know you you are facing, hear your critics

This is probably the best advice I've heard in any of the bay 12 political threads, with the possible exception of "make the byzantines assault you in mountain strongholds to kill them off through attrition "
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #857 on: November 10, 2016, 12:05:08 pm »

This is probably the best advice I've heard in any of the bay 12 political threads, with the possible exception of "make the byzantines assault you in mountain strongholds to kill them off through attrition "

Loud Whispers

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #858 on: November 11, 2016, 11:23:52 am »

If the smug style can be reduced to a single sentence, it's Why are they voting against their own self-interest?

This is a very long article, but holy shit am I glad I found it and read it. It is a very similar expression of my comments on the smugness of the liberal world as seen by an American liberal, and pretty neatly outlines why the liberal world has gone from being the world order of the 21st century to despised across the world and undone at every chance. What is worrying is just how similar our experiences are, even though we live worlds apart in all senses of the word, and should not be experiencing the same phenomena.

Loud Whispers

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #859 on: November 12, 2016, 09:07:42 pm »

Starver

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #860 on: November 12, 2016, 09:14:18 pm »

Mai waifus might be fighting
It'd be a notable meeting of mind, except that Trump already met Farage.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #861 on: November 12, 2016, 09:29:40 pm »

It'd be a notable meeting of mind, except that Trump already met Farage.
Yeah, before Trump became President of the USA, back when the polls were saying Hillary was 93% likely to be victor

Now Farage's the first politician of Britonland to see President Trump and not Prime Minister May or Foreign Secretary Johnson

Just

Farage

cheeki breeki

*EDIT
BoJo is weighing in
Quote
Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson will not attend a European special meeting called to discuss Donald Trump's US election victory.
The Foreign Office spokesman said: "The foreign secretary will not attend the meeting convened for Sunday. There is a regular Foreign Affairs Council meeting on Monday where a range of issues can be discussed in the normal way.
"We do not see the need for an additional meeting on Sunday because the US election timetable is long established. An act of democracy has taken place, there is a transition period and we will work with the current and future administrations to ensure the best outcomes for Britain."
On Friday Mr Johnson said: "With respect to my beloved EU friends and colleagues, I think it is time we snapped out of the general doom and gloom about the result of this election and the collective whinge-o-rama that seems to be going on in some places".
Ahahaha 2016 is the best year ever ahahaha 2017 we all die ahahah
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 09:39:44 pm by Loud Whispers »
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Starver

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #862 on: November 12, 2016, 09:46:49 pm »

Now Farage's the first politician of Britonland to see President Trump and not Prime Minister May or Foreign Secretary Johnson
I suspect that Johnson+Trump is like the virtual particle/antiparticle pair reanihilating in the quantum foam.  They look the same, they have the same spin and many similar qualities, just one is +clever inside, -clever on the surface and the other is the reverse polarity.  Anyway, the point is that I don't expect to see them in the same room for quite a while.

May's not a priority, either, even if he's apparently invoked the Maggie And Ronnie Show of the '80s (I forget if you've suggested you're old enough to remember that era, but I'm always assuming you' re not from your affected online persona).

But, seriously, it really means nothing.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #863 on: November 12, 2016, 10:27:37 pm »

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/12/09/boris-johnson-slams-donal_n_8758292.html

Boris Johnson is amazingly shameless in his u-turns even for a politician
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #864 on: November 12, 2016, 10:31:01 pm »

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/12/09/boris-johnson-slams-donal_n_8758292.html

Boris Johnson is amazingly shameless in his u-turns even for a politician
Boris doesn't U-turn, he solely traverses the roundabout

But, seriously, it really means nothing.
Means plenty for entertainment though

Max™

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #865 on: November 13, 2016, 01:55:57 am »

That smug article goes right to what Bill was saying the whole time apparently. "Court the disaffected middle class whites, don't treat them as easy wins" and oh look, the First Almost-Dude was right.

It's also why I was annoyed that the whole situation was "attack Trump and his voters" rather than "explain why you should vote for Hillary" which was much the same over there, "Leave voters are dumb and hateful" 'ok, but why should we stay?' "BECAUSE YOU'RE DUMB AND HATEFUL" didn't work then, didn't work Tuesday either.

Though the alt-right and the /pol/ sections of it are full of the same smug in a different flavor with all their talk about red-pilling and whatnot, so the real lesson is: if ur waifu is a person then ur waifu a shit cause people a shit.
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Neonivek

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #866 on: November 13, 2016, 02:12:57 am »

Careful or someone is going to accuse you of having a persecution complex.

Poor poor majority, so abused, so unloved. All alone in this world with their majority, if only they could be like the completely respected minority. I mean no one says anything bad about Hillary Supporters and Stayers.

Which is this sort of circular thing isn't it?
Stayers: Dang it leavers stop being so racist!
Leavers: Dang it Stayers stop abusing us!
Stayers: Dang it Leavers stop being such wimps!
Leavers: Dang it Stayers stop being such jerks!

It is almost like no one is looking good here... and no I am not going to play who was worse.

Because as with the Trump campaign there were very important issues brought up and while Anti-Trump was "Your Racist!" the Pro-Trump was "What racism?"... Mostly because they believed if they acknowledged it on any level it would invalidate them.

Irrational Anger Versus Irrational Denial FIGHT!
« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 02:23:20 am by Neonivek »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #867 on: November 13, 2016, 03:32:01 am »

That smug article goes right to what Bill was saying the whole time apparently. "Court the disaffected middle class whites, don't treat them as easy wins" and oh look, the First Almost-Dude was right.
Seems like Bill's all right

Though the alt-right and the /pol/ sections of it are full of the same smug in a different flavor with all their talk about red-pilling and whatnot, so the real lesson is: if ur waifu is a person then ur waifu a shit cause people a shit.
I disagree, different phenomenon entirely
alt-right aren't smug, they're degenerate, and /pol/ isn't smug, they're hateful. There was only one side that had millions of people lauding their own degrees, own wealth, at the poor idiots (in the USA I love the Bernie Sanders campaigners who coined the term "low information voter" for African Americans who voted Clinton or Trump, as if they only needed to know the obvious truth that they were too stupid to vote in their own interest). The scale and symptoms do not compare - the alt-right and /pol/ are tiny fringe communities with vastly disproportionate shitposting power to their population, similar to CTR and SJWs - differences noted in how they operate differently, one through dank memes and the other through social media activism for example. The issue of smugness is not one addressed to fringe groups of SJWs or /pol/ wherein we can make BBC certified impartial slates of both groups as impartial third party bystanders, it is one addressed to liberals. Normal people, millions of them, once the majority in the West - maximum smug. Yesterday alone I had to put up with multiple monologues and diatribes about how female voters in America are full of internalized misogyny, are voting against their interest, how African Americans are voting against their interest, how terrible the UK is (but still far superior to US liberals, even in defeat virtue signal), got text messages from people curled up in foetal balls asking me if my country was as retarded as the USA; my most interesting conversation was someone who'd come from Canary Wharf. We didn't talk of where our political views lay with Brexit, or for that matter the US elections, what we talked about was how remarkable it was that everyone was unanimous in their opinions.

So when I went to SW England a few years ago (before the European parliamentary votes) there were massive UKIP signs spread out from hill to hill, whilst back at home the great contest was between social liberals, social democratic liberals or liberals, everyone concurring that the European Union was the best thing ever :P. Unanimity based on geography. But one thing I did notice was that all the people in the countryside were honest workers, working in salons, docks, farms, shops, transport, engineering, real salt of the earth; a few thought it amusing my accent didn't match with my ethnicity and showed me especial hospitality, and they treated themselves with humility. I contrast that with some of my best friends who are liberals and they genuinely believe that liberals are more qualified to know what's best for their countrymen than their countrymen. Their success, intellect and power grants them status, status not tempered by British humility, because British humility is not European and so never learned :[
One thing that article did really well was talk on how the comedy catered to liberals illustrated more about them than the targets of satire. No longer about making yourself laugh and hurt, it became about laughing at someone else to rally liberals around their own superiority. I had a great chuckle watching the transition of Mock the Week, where a bunch of socially liberal comedians did just that - mock the news of the week. Absolutely fantastic, wonderful, then the comedians started getting old and they replaced them with socially liberal comedians of a much younger, smugger generation. It felt bizarre seeing comedians ask "how do we ban UKIP", no setup or punchline, and the audience laughing in support. ~o.o~

Is liberalism conducive to smugness, or is the fact that most liberals are elite that lends them to smugness? Don't know honestly, all I do know is that it's done a lot to kill them

P.s. no ur waifu a shit

Poor poor majority, so abused, so unloved. All alone in this world with their majority, if only they could be like the completely respected minority. I mean no one says anything bad about Hillary Supporters and Stayers.
See what I mean about this smug, it's just repulsive to normal people

Which is this sort of circular thing isn't it?
Stayers: Dang it leavers stop being so racist!
Leavers: Dang it Stayers stop abusing us!
Stayers: Dang it Leavers stop being such wimps!
Leavers: Dang it Stayers stop being such jerks!
It is almost like no one is looking good here... and no I am not going to play who was worse.
This has never happened

Because as with the Trump campaign there were very important issues brought up and while Anti-Trump was "Your Racist!" the Pro-Trump was "What racism?"... Mostly because they believed if they acknowledged it on any level it would invalidate them.
I'm pretty certain that wasn't the case but I don't want to get into that in Brexit thread
I'll just say this, cos your argument is very applicable to Brexit, back when the socialists and conservatives were eroding away at the liberals, the liberals still held media and state dominance, and had immense power in narrative control within the city. The moment you answer to your opposition is the moment your opposition controls your narrative, and of course they're going to tear you apart. They say your whole argument is the issue. Not only are you wrong, you're morally wrong, and you're now on the backfoot defending yourself against a smug opponent escaping scrutiny. Did Remain address the concerns of ethnic minorities voting to Leave? No. Did Remain address the concerns of the working class voting to Leave? Again, no. Because they did not want to disrupt their narrative of the enlightened versus the ignorant. Before Remain, there was Cameron, there was Brown, Blair and the important issues we're talking about today, they never took seriously, and whilst they showed such smiles for the camera, they showed their contempt in sincerety when caught unaware. Fucking hell, I've not met a single supporter of Corbyn or May who suggested taking away the voting rights of vulnerable groups, nah that's not beyond liberals, fuck old people, fuck poor people. Don't even get me started on the whole regrexit saga, of liberals genuinely trying to make the case that millions of people were too stupid to vote and thought "Leave the European Union" meant "Stay in the European Union."

A great exception in leadership I think was Nick Clegg, who never gave off that smugness, despite being talented and literal aristocracy he seemed humble enough, and had the gall to actually apologise for being such a failure to the public, which despite ending his career made me respect him more in retirement than service. Indeed in a better world he wouldn't have been such a failure and the liberals of UK could've unsmugged themselves, but towards the end even he became smugged. I still remember the hilarious slogan the LD used before getting absolutely slaughtered in GE, of how they'd add a brain to labour and a heart to conservatives. Well done at pissing off everyone eh? :D

Irrational Anger Versus Irrational Denial FIGHT!
There are ways of rationally discussing this ya know fam

Max™

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #868 on: November 13, 2016, 04:26:30 am »

That smug article goes right to what Bill was saying the whole time apparently. "Court the disaffected middle class whites, don't treat them as easy wins" and oh look, the First Almost-Dude was right.
Seems like Bill's all right
Our first black president was a gigantic manwhore, but he did know how to shmooze like nobody's business.

Though the alt-right and the /pol/ sections of it are full of the same smug in a different flavor with all their talk about red-pilling and whatnot, so the real lesson is: if ur waifu is a person then ur waifu a shit cause people a shit.
I disagree, different phenomenon entirely
alt-right aren't smug, they're degenerate, and /pol/ isn't smug, they're hateful. There was only one side that had millions of people lauding their own degrees, own wealth, at the poor idiots (in the USA I love the Bernie Sanders campaigners who coined the term "low information voter" for African Americans who voted Clinton or Trump, as if they only needed to know the obvious truth that they were too stupid to vote in their own interest). The scale and symptoms do not compare - the alt-right and /pol/ are tiny fringe communities with vastly disproportionate shitposting power to their population, similar to CTR and SJWs - differences noted in how they operate differently, one through dank memes and the other through social media activism for example. The issue of smugness is not one addressed to fringe groups of SJWs or /pol/ wherein we can make BBC certified impartial slates of both groups as impartial third party bystanders, it is one addressed to liberals. Normal people, millions of them, once the majority in the West - maximum smug. Yesterday alone I had to put up with multiple monologues and diatribes about how female voters in America are full of internalized misogyny, are voting against their interest, how African Americans are voting against their interest, how terrible the UK is (but still far superior to US liberals, even in defeat virtue signal), got text messages from people curled up in foetal balls asking me if my country was as retarded as the USA; my most interesting conversation was someone who'd come from Canary Wharf. We didn't talk of where our political views lay with Brexit, or for that matter the US elections, what we talked about was how remarkable it was that everyone was unanimous in their opinions.
Dunno man, I got curious about what was going on over there and watched various threads progress leading up to and after election night. The /pol/ folks running around trying to shitpost a meme into office were actually just discussing trying to grab some of the "Bernout" crowd who weren't really dems and could be given the whole Matrix "awakening" if they could be convinced to take the red pill, whereupon they would see how the various outgroups are trying to "keep the white man down" and be able to help them turn the SJW crowd against the minority crowd to leave the dems in ruins.

They're convinced that everyone would be part of their conservative-ethnonationalist-white-male-countries-ruled-by-white-males-again if they weren't so dumb/blind/manipulated/worried about hurting feelings/wussies. They're cheering on Brexit as a success at doing this, they're cheering on Trump for the same reason, same folks are rooting on Le Pen I think?

They're far from the core group, but as you said, their shitposting ability far exceeds their numbers, and CTR was a lame attempt at counterinsurgency trying to fight them at the source on their home turf only to constantly fail and get run off back to reddit and whatnot.

Normally they would remain in their dark corners, full of gibbering madness, safely hidden out of sight, but Trump brought all this out and gave it an air of legitimacy. Pepe wasn't actually an alt-right or nazi thing, it just happened to be an in-joke that a bunch of alt-right memers used to amuse themselves when the media noticed it, and then suddenly it's being discussed seriously in election coverage by mainstream media channels for the glory of kek.

You're telling me it isn't smugness to discuss ways to wake people up so they see the rightness of your positions, knowing those positions include things which are actually reviled due to being awful like white supremacy, misogyny, anti-semitism, rather than just a difference of opinion like whether it is better to spend tax dollars on budget type A or type B, or whether the religious views of some should be able to affect the treatment and freedom of others?

I can accept that there are people who really believe Je-hee-eezu-uUu-us cares about piddly shit enough that government should get involved, and think that is a more important issue than education or social welfare.

I disagree completely, but I am not offended by the source of the positions.

I can think someone is wrong about whether government should step in on reproductive or marriage rights without having to demonize them as hateful monsters.

On the other hand, I think positions favoring encoding the superiority of a particular group at the expense of all others are wrong, and it is difficult to perform any mental gymnastics sufficient to argue that white supremacists and anti-semites and misogynists aren't hateful monsters.

There isn't nearly enough light shone on the hateful tendencies of the left, true, and they love painting the entire right for the shitposted views of a few assholes, but those same assholes are super smug, especially since they "shitposted a meme into office" just recently.

ps my waifu now is Gabbard, and she is the only time I've ever gotten excited at the thought of someone running for Pres because she rocks, so no u
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Neonivek

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #869 on: November 13, 2016, 10:04:16 am »

Quote
I'll just say this, cos your argument is very applicable to Brexit

I wasn't being off topic, I was giving an example.

Mostly because this example is nice because it doesn't bring in Remain or Leave. It leaves it up to the reader to decide what party I might be hinting at.

Unrelated: Yeah Remain was beyond deplorable in defeat.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 10:11:30 am by Neonivek »
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