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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 503276 times)

PlumpHelmetMan

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2220 on: July 17, 2019, 08:38:03 am »

Got it. Thanks a lot. :)
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It's actually pretty terrifying to think about having all of your fat melt off into grease because you started sweating too much.

PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2221 on: July 17, 2019, 11:41:39 am »


:
4) If 3 is true, will we be able to capture disabled soldiers of invading forces (such as goblins)? Any plans for that (interrogations, etc)
:

We already have means to capture enemies (cage traps), so the question really becomes two:
a) Will we get fortress (and adventurer) means to subdue enemies for capture as an alternative to attack to kill?
Apart from capture for interrogation, such an option might allow you to capture tantrumers for expulsion (or performance troupe enemy civ effective spies for interrogation).
b) Will interrogation of captured enemies have a chance to provide any information that can be acted on?
(Such as e.g. something that provides us with an assassination target or other information that might be used in the conflict). Most of the time I'd expect you won't get anything beyond their civ and the settlement they assembled in, plus the name of their [usually completely expendable] leader of the attack if you'd be able to interrogate them, though. Grunts simply aren't told much.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2019, 11:43:51 am by PatrikLundell »
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zakarum

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2222 on: July 17, 2019, 02:06:17 pm »

We already have means to capture enemies (cage traps), so the question really becomes two:

I know, I know. I guess I wasn't clear but I meant disabled enemies - one that was disabled by blunt forced combat or one that passed out during combat (because of injuries). But that also involves nursing them back to health (or hoping they don't die) but fair enough.
I guess the main thing here would be a "capture" designation for disabled creatures.
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ZM5

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2223 on: July 17, 2019, 02:13:00 pm »

I think for that to work reliably we'd kinda need specific orders for military attacks ala Evil Genius - so aside from the kill order we'd have a non-lethal capture order.

zakarum

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2224 on: July 18, 2019, 04:47:30 am »

Well that would be one thing, but I can see there's plenty of problems with trying to capture someone in the middle of the battle. There's plenty of enemies that end up getting disabled before they are killed and if you can provide some assistance so they live a bit longer, then you can capture a few after the dust settled. You could also equip soldiers with hammers, as it would decrease mortality.


1)Will the new aquifer changes means it could be viable not to use constructed walls but instead construct a drainage system of grates and underground tunnels that naturally drain the aquifer somewhere else? Or will the water flow be too much for dwarfs to go through?
2)Will water someday seep through constructed walls, albeit at a slower rate the more walls there are between the aquifer/water source and the walls, making drainage systems for mines an actual necessity?
3)Will different kinds of rocks have different rates of permeability, affecting the speed that water seeps through the aquifer, or it will always be a fixed rate?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2019, 04:53:58 am by zakarum »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2225 on: July 18, 2019, 08:10:34 am »

Well that would be one thing, but I can see there's plenty of problems with trying to capture someone in the middle of the battle. There's plenty of enemies that end up getting disabled before they are killed and if you can provide some assistance so they live a bit longer, then you can capture a few after the dust settled. You could also equip soldiers with hammers, as it would decrease mortality.


1)Will the new aquifer changes means it could be viable not to use constructed walls but instead construct a drainage system of grates and underground tunnels that naturally drain the aquifer somewhere else? Or will the water flow be too much for dwarfs to go through?
2)Will water someday seep through constructed walls, albeit at a slower rate the more walls there are between the aquifer/water source and the walls, making drainage systems for mines an actual necessity?
3)Will different kinds of rocks have different rates of permeability, affecting the speed that water seeps through the aquifer, or it will always be a fixed rate?

Trying to capture someone in the middle of a battle is probably a bad idea, yes. Capture requires extra time and resources (tying material, which can be abstracted, disarming that probably would have to be explicit, and prisoner guards that have to be removed from the actual battle to guard the prisoners). Thus, capture would presumably be reserved for mopping up (e.g. those pesky campers that just sit around twiddling their thumbs when the others flee). Still there's no reason for the game to refuse you the option of giving stupid(/brave/creative) orders.

1. It's possible to just let a current aquifer (i.e. near artesian) pour out in a sufficiently large room to evaporate (I've done that by mistake, trying to muddy a large area for a tree farm, only to realize I needed to build walls to concentrate water in one area at a time). The new aquifers will also require basins/cisterns for large water usage projects such as obsidian farms and magma sea obsidianization (when using the aquifer as the source: cavern lakes and surface rivers will probably increase in importance for these purposes).
2. Implementing this eventually will result in a number of issues (not saying it's bad, only that it needs to be balanced):
  - Mud (= subterranean plants and obscured engravings) everywhere. At a minimum we need a way to clear away mud.
  - Harder to get a fortress going if it gets slowly drowned in water unless you set up pumps (but evaporation should do it, unless air humidity tracking is introduced to block evaporation when the air is saturated).
3. Given that the new implementation provides for different rates, I guess the question is rather whether the rate is tied to the material (i.e. the permeability) of the layer the aquifer is in, randomly determined, or determined based on multiple factors (layer material, rainfall, slope...) with or without a random distribution.
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Whatsifsowhatsit

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2226 on: July 18, 2019, 08:28:05 am »

I believe aquifers used to contain infinite amounts of water, right? Not sure where I read or heard that, so it might just be wrong. But if it's right, is it still the case nowadays? I haven't really kept up with them, and I never play with them exactly because I don't like this infiniteness (from a simulation perspective).
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zakarum

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2227 on: July 18, 2019, 09:34:41 am »

@Whatsifsowhatsit Yes they contain infinite amounts of water and that's still the case. I don't mind the infiniteness from a simulation perspective, but I did mind their speed - which was rather unrealistic.

@PatrikLundell I guess the biggest issue would be the FPS death it would cause. But yeah, mud cleaning would be a must at least. I don't mind forts filling with water unless drained, that would actually be pretty realistic. Getting back to a fort you lost and finding it all flooded would present an interesting challenge (for an adventurer at least), and mines do flood after they are abandoned.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2228 on: July 18, 2019, 11:36:17 am »

I have less of an issue with aquifers containing unlimited amounts of water than their ability to absorb unlimited amounts of water (and isolated aquifer tiles being unlimited).

I don't have an issue with abandoned fortresses being flooded, but adding a pump requirement to a starting fortress may result in more work than the limited number of hands available can deal with when setting up shop.
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Hellrazor

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2229 on: July 18, 2019, 01:05:20 pm »

Do you have plans to add food preserving to the game?
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DG

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2230 on: July 18, 2019, 04:54:26 pm »

Yes. This was the last mention I found but there are older ones floating around.

Quote from: Flying Teasets
Will rock salt ever become an edible item?

Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7933281#msg7933281
Random_Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7933335#msg7933335

This has been on the table with, say, food preservation before, and recipes and all that.  So there are few angles and we'll get there when that stuff comes back into view, whenever that might be.
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Death Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2231 on: July 18, 2019, 10:36:11 pm »

I'm so happy about the aquifer change. I was hoping for exactly that change, but I never expected to see it implemented so soon.
Here are a couple random questions:

Can zombies raised by a player necromancer mount on a horse (or zombie horse)?

When a necromancer gets kicked out of a site, can they migrate to a player fort?

I heard that the soundtrack for the steam version is already done. Do you know if we can get to listen to some songs from it before the steam release, looking at how long that's still gonna take, or is that just Kitfox' decision?

Is there any chance players will get access to some of your DF debugging tools? They would probably be very useful for modders. Also kinda related to this, being able to take control of any historic figure in adventure mode would be really nice for roleplaying.


Edit: Just found someone wondering about this on reddit:
Does the aquifer speed change also affect the rate at which they are able to absorb water?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2019, 11:08:57 am by Death Dragon »
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Arcturus

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2232 on: July 23, 2019, 06:24:40 am »


Unless you're a elf, which case you can pat wild [NATURAL] animals regardless because they don't draw up aggression from them, after some snout nuzzling, stroking or patting jumping straight onto their backs i don't know whether that'd count.

For mainly concerns about accidentally escalating combat with your animals accidental or otherwise, maybe with unrelated wild animals like i mentioned above with elves welcoming enough to let us get close.

Zombies are kind of finnicky about those things, they need to be put down if they end up on the wrong side of combat because of the nature that they are mindless but obliging. Accidentally enraging your pet undead dragon in the future releases context doesn't sound like a smart move but might easily be done without a way to calm them down again.

Wait, does that mean elves with have a huge advantage with finding mounts? I can just picture my elf adventurer going in the jungle and hopping on an elephant and then riding it into a goblin stronghold trampling goblins everywhere and hitting them with a large wooden sword (has to be long enough to fight from elephantback).
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DG

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2233 on: July 25, 2019, 04:08:29 am »

[game font]Toady One is level-headed after following some tangents.[/game font]
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Greendogo

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2234 on: July 25, 2019, 04:17:10 am »

Tavern games question for Toady (and only Toady, ye great and mighty bunch of question stealers):

When adding Tavern games, will you be adding board games as a subgenre? I'd love to get some games of Settlers of Catan in on my Dwarven carved bone set.  :D
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Sail - The end reminds me of a goblin choking a kobold.  No ponies, sorry.
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