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Author Topic: The NEW Future of the Fortress  (Read 336344 times)

Plank of Wood

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1170 on: December 21, 2008, 06:08:46 am »

Quote
I dunno.  I've scratched my eye once, but I don't remember it being particularly worse, and I have no idea about various nerve damages.  Right now the nervous tissue pain is set at zero, and I was going by the while-awake brain surgery videos I've seen.  I dunno if getting your spine cut hurts or if it's like the brain, or if I'm wrong about the brain.

Superficial eye damage causes only minor pain, but it can get to very painful or extremely painful if the eye is pierced, and the blood rushing through the wound will cause considerable pain aswell. Nerve damage pain is quite low, which is why nerve wounds are very dangerous, you can't tell if its wounded since there's only a minor pain, if any at all. A broken spine will only hurt well someone tries to get up and moves the bone away from its initial position, but otherwise he/she/it wound't feel it.
A good example is car crash victims: They think they're alright were they currently stand, they'll only feel pain if they move around or try to get up.

In short:
Eye pain: Low if only scratched, or otehrwise lightly damage, high/extreme if pierced/mangled or severely wounded.

Nerve pain: Low, if any at all, regarding spines, brain and related.


Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Ask some0ne with sciatica how bad their nerve pain is................

Protip: Don't.
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Toady One

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1171 on: December 21, 2008, 08:12:04 am »

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Will the sword do nothing, or will it act as a bludgeoning weapon since iron cannot cut steel?

Yeah, right now it would end up being a bludgeoning weapon, and though I'm just starting on the character of wounds, it should probably make dents if it manages to strike hard enough to get up to the yield point.  I'm not sure if I'll get to damaging items, though it should be possible and it currently has a place on the list.  In that case, the sword would become dull (it tracks the edge's sharpness now) and possibly break if you get beyond the fracture point.  Items don't yet have anything like specific wounds, so having things like the sword becoming tragically bent are out of reach for this release.

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Will eligibility for becoming a noble be able to be restricted on a caste-specific basis?

Yeah, this release.

Quote
This might be too much, but separating central and peripheral nervous tissue might make sense, especially for things like pain and regeneration. I believe peripheral nervous system tissue can regenerate much, much more than something like the brain or spine, and certainly would have more pain reception.

Currently all of the nervous tissue away from the spine and brain are abstracted away (as the pain receptor value for example), as are ligaments and tendons, so the nerve tissue template currently refers to the spine only.  I guess the sinew making up tendons is a common useful material, so that'll probably be added in later on, but likely not this time around.  I'm not sure if peripheral nervous tissue will ever be in as a material in vanilla DF, though I can see it happening if I start added specific nerves (and arteries/veins).  The arteries are also currently abstracted as a single tag.

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Can the tag [BIOME:SUBTERRANEAN_WATER] be used for civs too?

Nah, I haven't done anything with underwater civs at this time.  I'm not sure when that will happen.  I'm going to be doing more with the underground this time around, but there are so many irritating pathing and other issues with underwater/flying stuff that it'll probably take a more concerted push to get through it than I'll be able to muster for this release.

Thanks for the melting points.  I imagine correcting the various fudges and errors in the metal and other defs will be an ongoing saga.

Quote
Huh, I just noticed blood is only present in the new raws as a material template... are the "blood types" still hardcoded?

I just haven't gotten to bleeding wounds yet, so I haven't defined blood in the raws yet, as I'm not sure what I'll end up with.  I was thinking of tracking blood events on the ground with a bit more precision, as there generally aren't a zillion of them and it's currently eating up a ton of map bits, so I'm not sure if the current blood type notion will survive.  It'll take some looking at though.  Everything about blood should make it out to the raws, though that isn't something I can promise.

Quote
Hmmm... Gaseous blood...

I hope so.  I already have the boiling material flow it uses for the molten metals and alcohols, so it shouldn't be too hard.  It would be cool to mix it with the poison effects when I get there.  I suppose powder blood should also be allowed now that I have a separate powder state.  Then you can be attacked by Time Men that have glass on the outside and sand on the inside, and I can be fired.  That might work better with a whole sand tissue layer though.

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That's the adamantine example there, but I don't know what affects what.

As it mentions in the stone material template raw (I think that's the one), 4 of those categories don't matter yet.  The high impact and shear numbers will make it resistant to all attacks and also cutting attacks specifically.  In game terms, the yield=fracture means that if you manage to hit the adamantine hard enough, it won't dent but will fracture immediately.  I don't think the low elasticity (which is probably actually something like yield strain, but I found inverting the moduli convenient -- I think it's strain with scale 1000 times the percent deformation at yield) will matter for items at this point, as it only is used so far in determining some skin/soft tissue like behaviors for attacks on creatures.  It also makes the current notion of adamantine thread something that needs some explaining.  Since I threw the numbers in haphazardly without considering that, one can now start to come up with some sort of weird hooking together sewing thingy that the dwarves do -- either that or some miracle chemistry they do that lets them get around the raw mechanics.  Since the elasticity number doesn't matter for adamantine items, perhaps it could also be changed, but I currently like the starkness of it.  In terms of adamantine weapons, the edge and shear properties mean it will be able to slice through steel for example quite easily, even though the low density means that it won't be effective in bludeoning weapons.  Normal cutting weapons won't be able to slice through your adamantine armor, but you can still get knocked around.
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Deon

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1172 on: December 21, 2008, 08:54:04 am »

Quote
I hope so.  I already have the boiling material flow it uses for the molten metals and alcohols, so it shouldn't be too hard.  It would be cool to mix it with the poison effects when I get there.
Oh yeah, steam-machinery creatures are coming!!

A question to Toady: Mr. Tarn, will a dissolution be implemented in any way? I.e. if I want to make an arid material which turns to slime/dissolutes totally on contact with water, will it be possible? I want to be able to make sand golems etc. :)

Another question is about "keeping form". In another thread ghosts were mentioned. The ghosts should be made of some ethereal/gaseous material which keeps form even when something sharp goes through it (i.e. a steel shortsword). It can be solved through different means, i.e. density, form memory or just a simple extreme regeneration. What are your thoughts, master? :)
« Last Edit: December 21, 2008, 11:44:53 am by Deon »
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Appelgren

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1173 on: December 21, 2008, 09:07:14 am »


Yay! Time men! Just think of all cheesy things you could say before smashing them, like "Your time is up!"

(or "You know how I've always been jealous of your attractive hourglass shape?")
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Dakk

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1174 on: December 21, 2008, 11:46:04 am »

Quote
I dunno.  I've scratched my eye once, but I don't remember it being particularly worse, and I have no idea about various nerve damages.  Right now the nervous tissue pain is set at zero, and I was going by the while-awake brain surgery videos I've seen.  I dunno if getting your spine cut hurts or if it's like the brain, or if I'm wrong about the brain.
Superficial eye damage causes only minor pain, but it can get to very painful or extremely painful if the eye is pierced, and the blood rushing through the wound will cause considerable pain aswell. Nerve damage pain is quite low, which is why nerve wounds are very dangerous, you can't tell if its wounded since there's only a minor pain, if any at all. A broken spine will only hurt well someone tries to get up and moves the bone away from its initial position, but otherwise he/she/it wound't feel it.
A good example is car crash victims: They think they're alright were they currently stand, they'll only feel pain if they move around or try to get up.

In short:
Eye pain: Low if only scratched, or otehrwise lightly damage, high/extreme if pierced/mangled or severely wounded.

Nerve pain: Low, if any at all, regarding spines, brain and related.


Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Ask some0ne with sciatica how bad their nerve pain is................

Protip: Don't.


Hey, i was speaking about pain caused by wounds, not crazy ass nerve disfunctions :P
« Last Edit: December 21, 2008, 11:55:33 am by Dakk »
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Footkerchief

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1175 on: December 21, 2008, 11:56:28 am »

In terms of adamantine weapons, the edge and shear properties mean it will be able to slice through steel for example quite easily, even though the low density means that it won't be effective in bludeoning weapons.  Normal cutting weapons won't be able to slice through your adamantine armor, but you can still get knocked around.

Wow, that rules.  So we'll also have armor acting like a pseudo tissue layer for purposes of transmitting bludgeoning damage and so forth?
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Dakk

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1176 on: December 21, 2008, 12:00:16 pm »

So no more one-shoting dragons with wooden spears.  ;D
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Orkel

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1177 on: December 21, 2008, 01:40:23 pm »

Sorry if this has been asked before, but how will all the layers of tissue for each bodypart be presented? Will there be a gigantic/massive list of "2th outer tissue layer for right finger #2", "Flesh layer #1 for right knee" and so on listed like the parts are currently done, or will there be some kind of damage indicator next to the body parts? For example, next to a broken leg, does it say how deeply damaged the tissue for the part is?
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Akroma

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1178 on: December 21, 2008, 01:43:12 pm »

oh, I wouldn't ccount on no more one-shots on dragons

a lucky roll can always happen
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Dwarfaholic

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1179 on: December 21, 2008, 01:49:27 pm »

By the way, can objects be supercooled this version, and such?

Because having blood that is of a temperature higher than it's boiling point but kept liquid by the pressure in the veins would be cool- ish.
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Granite26

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1180 on: December 21, 2008, 01:51:32 pm »

Hmmm... Gaseous blood...

I'm looking for the acid blood, but also sand and smoke (miasma blood!)

Neonivek

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1181 on: December 21, 2008, 01:54:27 pm »

Toady added in currosives?
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G-Flex

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1182 on: December 21, 2008, 02:24:07 pm »

Hrm, quick question regarding armor/weapon material types:

Obviously, from what you've said, it will be difficult to cut through, say, steel with iron. But HOW difficult? I mean, someone with a bronze dagger should probably penetrate steel every now and then, and how hard will it be for someone with, say, an iron axe to penetrate steel chain or plate? I'm kind of wondering how this'll impact gameplay, and whether or not it'll make non-<best material available> equipment non-viable for use.
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Thndr

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1183 on: December 21, 2008, 02:38:02 pm »

So no more one-shoting dragons with wooden spears.  ;D

You forget about the soft underbelly

Hrm, quick question regarding armor/weapon material types:

Obviously, from what you've said, it will be difficult to cut through, say, steel with iron. But HOW difficult? I mean, someone with a bronze dagger should probably penetrate steel every now and then, and how hard will it be for someone with, say, an iron axe to penetrate steel chain or plate? I'm kind of wondering how this'll impact gameplay, and whether or not it'll make non-<best material available> equipment non-viable for use.
Depending on the material, most likely physically impossible.
If the force needed to produce a cut in a material is larger than any of the forces needed to bread/bend/dull the weapon that is being used, the weapon will be unable cut.
However we can probably assume with lucky rolls that it could at the very most damage the armor decently, even if the weapon does break in the process.

However I may be wrong, who knows.
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G-Flex

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1184 on: December 21, 2008, 02:40:56 pm »

That's rather oversimplified, though. You can certainly cut a "stronger" material with a "weaker" one. It depends on a lot of things, like sharpness, thickness, how the force is applied, and whatever else.

For instance, here's a rather extreme example to illustrate the point: A 50-pound copper axe blade, sharpened extremely fine, should be able to penetrate a millimeter of good steel. I know that's ridiculous to use as an example, but it's just to show that there are more factors involved than a direct comparison of the materials, and saying "that's impossible!" just because one material is less inherently "strong" than the other.
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