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[Mephansteras]

Listening to Talk #6 and the subject on the abstraction of tools and such for crafting items, I thought of a solution.

The example in the talk was making a chair and how it would take a dwarf a month just to gather up all of the boards and nails and whatnot to do the job.

What if workshops contained internal stockpiles for tools and necessary components? So the Carpenter's shop would have hammers and saws and nails and glues and varnishes and whatnot. What you could create would depend on what resources you had available. A crude chair held together with wooden pegs would be easy to make but worth little. A masterwork chair would require more advanced tools, varnishes/stains/whatever.

As far as getting all the items to the workshop that could be fairly easy to automate. Say your blacksmith creates a bunch of nails. The game can then check to see if any in-workshop stockpiles need more nails before finding a generic stockpile to stick them in. A peasant then runs over and sticks the nails in a bucket and takes them to wherever they're needed as a stack (possibly splitting them up between workshops).

This only works once stacking and hauling is improved, but I think it could be done eventually without adding much more micromanagement. Especially if some of the more intelligent Job Manager ideas get implemented (like ordering all components for an object to be created if they are missing).

[zwei]

I'd rather keep it simple and make use of existing mechanics:

Woodcutter workshop would simply take one "carpentry toolset" (made by metalsmith) to make in adition to current materials, just like anvil is pecial ingedient for certain workshops, anything made in wokshop would be considered to make with toolset.

Or, dwarf with carpentry would simply carry toolset with him in backpack/pockets just like woodcutter carries axe or miner carries pickaxe.

It would add only small hassle, only to make sure you have tools, but that is one off thing and would actually be kinda cool: one more thing to consider when embarking, one more thing to do in moderatelly grown fortress.

[Nogford]

I would like something similar to this. All workshops should take more materials to construct....I never quite understood how one stone could be used to make an entire kitchen for example.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Tool sets specific to each job sound like a poor idea, we'd have nearly a dozen different sets which is unnecessarily complex when a simple set of tools (knife, saw, hammer, tongs, shears) would be enough for cover the needed tool diversity

[Footkerchief]

Here are some other suggestions about having specific tools/hardware and storing them in workshops:
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=5950.0
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=27214.msg328477#msg328477
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=28276.msg355551#msg355551
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=4533.msg62385#msg62385
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=5926.msg74380#msg74380

Hopefully that will help contextualize the discussion.

[KenboCalrissian]

Remind me why we need to build toolkits?  All you're adding is another step to the process, thereby making it more tedious.

Think of any game where you put resources together to create a unit - for sake of argument, I'm going to use a Elven Archer from Warcraft 2.  It costs 500 gold and 50 lumber to create the archer, but you don't need to find a bowstring before you can train the sucker.  Has anyone ever complained about this?

Yes, DF is a simulator, and some level of realism is expected.  But come on!  You don't think dwarves don't inherently know to bring along their tools when they embark?  Why do you want to pay more points for something that's required of you to bring before you can build anything?  What's a player to do if they forget to bring the toolkit?  How do you build a toolkit without any tools?

[CobaltKobold]

Bootstrapping?
(eduguesses based on fiction)
Knap flint.
Cut vines and sticks and grasses to get shafts and fibers.
Affix flint to sticks in various manners to make knives, spears, axes.
Cut down trees with axe.
Use knife to sharpen stick for use as a firestarter, also hollow a bit out of your target for fire.
Use fibers and sharp stick to start fire by friction, using the fibers to spin the stick.
(/eduguesses)

(Alternately, find copper, beat copper into the rough shape you want with a rock- it's malleable enough to need no heating to work, and find a good rough stone to sharpen your edges with.)

Anyway, once you have fire and sharp stuff, most of it is using (tool) to make (better tool). I'm fuzzy on the details.

I kind of agree with toady that it probably shouldn't normally be necessary to have tools in Dwarfmode, but being able to use them carried-around to not need workshops in fortmode would be a nice feature.

[Murphy]

Sure, if there are no tools, we may always imagine they are there. It would just be an abstraction. But then you can't have masterwork tools affecting your work quality and time consumption.

EDIT: I hasten to add, dwarves should mostly be able to work without any tools. The work then would just be slower, or more crude.

[Athisus]

How do you build a toolkit without any tools?

Might I remind you that the world was not made with tools included. There was no primordial toolbox that dropped out of the sky that all other tools owe their heritage to.

[KenboCalrissian]

How do you build a toolkit without any tools?

Might I remind you that the world was not made with tools included. There was no primordial toolbox that dropped out of the sky that all other tools owe their heritage to.

No need to remind me, because this doesn't really answer the question you're referencing.

Cobalt was closer to diffusing my point with an explanation of how tools are created.  I guess the question is whether we really want to start users off with nothing but sticks and stones and make them build up until they create adequate tools they could use to cobble a chair together.

It's like the "advance tech level over time" argument, but in reverse.  I could see it providing an additional survival challenge to hardcore players, but for the casual gamer it's unnecessary - and, let's be honest, the challenge provided is only briefly present in the very beginning, and then it's gone and you never have to worry about it again.  Not enough substance.

Additionally, think of how this affects the early game.  In Vanilla, you more or less have one year (give or take a few, depending on circumstances) to build a functioning, defensible fort before you start getting ambushes.  When you throw in an obstacle like requiring a tool to be created before you get early work done, this makes it harder to get the fort up and running within that window, meaning you'd likely also have to rebalance ambushes.

Now, somewhere I saw a suggestion for a portable toolkit that allows the user to build a construction on the spot it was designated (it's in one of the threads Footkerchief listed).  This is an idea I could get behind.  It's a small investment to create a reasonably sized persistent reward, and I don't think it's enough to make the game too easy.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I suppose I should post a quick disclaimer.  I often play Devil's Advocate in these suggestions as a means to encourage sound arguments for why they should be included.  I do hope it doesn't come off as trolling because that isn't the intent!

[CobaltKobold]

What I think is that tools should be makable, be usable in fort mode either to
a. construct a workshop without other materials (as another option, rather than required)
b. do a normally workshop-only job without a workshop (would require some new menu items?)

Since you're going to have some case where you have an adv-mode 'only' tool showing up in dwarfmode somehow.

[kalida99]

Perhaps you could just start off with a small tool kit that had basic versions of the tools?

Hatchets rather than battle axes, cut wood slightly slower and not as good in combat (Cheaper as well).
Smaller picks (prospecting picks), that dig slower but are cheaper.

It would lump simple essentials into one item so newbies don't wonder why they might not be able to cut wood, but also upgradable to increase production. Also cheaper than it would be to buy the Individual specialist tools. While also increasing the number of items you can bring at the start after removing that 300 pt axe from embark

Maybe add in the ability to build tools for certain professions, and people? Chisels for engravers and masons, hammers for smiths, measuring cups for cooks, and brewers, Etc Not doing much else than increasing quality and speed of production. Maybe upgrade the workshop as a whole to assist anyone using it

[dakenho]

How do you build a toolkit without any tools?

Might I remind you that the world was not made with tools included. There was no primordial toolbox that dropped out of the sky that all other tools owe their heritage to.

hu so that is where the first anvil came from
late in the midnight sky a oddly shaped meteor falls from the sky
urist mcnoname:  "Hey whats that , that fell out of the sky"
urist theotherdwarf:  "lets go look"
urst mcnoname GASPS, "this...this goblin is dead, crushed by this weird, metal...thing.  Who would do something so horrible to such a peaceful civilization?:
urist theoderdwarf searches the dead goblins body "Its hard to read his papers and the only thing i could make out is anvil..that must be his name".
urist thefirstdwarf "than we shall name this strange thing after this poor goblin, let us go now and bring this "anvil" to the king"

meanwhile a goblin had noticed the dwarfs standing over something and had a look after they left

ug thestupid:  "my god, those dwarfs killed this man with that thing they called an "anivl" this, this is war,  I must start collecting ambush partys to raid there supply's and ask our mace-lord to lead a glorious charge on that nearby dwarf out post,  we will see how much of a "fortress" it really is".

[dakenho]

I must say I kind of agree with tools, it does not complicate things in the least to include.

carpenters tools
fish cleaner tools
ect ect ect
in your embark.

now there is a big problem with materials to make things (like beds)
in that there is as vast list of supply's needed.
such as
planks and misc wood piece's
nails,
glue,
varnish
paint,
the little rubberthings that go on the legs,

while work shops can have there own private stock piles built in (which would be great) there is no motivation to make a chair out of wood at this point espically when you can make one out of stone.
 
one already needs to large of a percent of his/her population for hauling materials as it is, this adds a huge amount of logistical strain on a fortress (nearly half if not 3/4 of my population is haulers and they can barley keep up as it is).  for a dwarf to run around and also drop off all this extra stuff is a bit much.

with all said in this thread though, this is a kick ass idea but there would be some serious changes that would need to be made to the game

1.  dwarfs will need a hauling change (ie dwarfs will no longer carry 1 seed at a time type deal)
2.  using beasts of burden to help transport items

this part of the post is rated D for dwarf

I had always imagined that dwarfs simply carve out a log for a bed \_/  would kind of look like that but more curved.

Chairs are chizeled out of logs much like a chair is chizeled out of stone

bins are just lidless hollowed logs

barrles are hollowed out like beds but horizontally

|_|  like that

...tools are for humans

[Foehamster]

This seems more complex that it should be.  Increase the number of materials to build a workshop, fine.  How about when you build a workshop the tools are built along with the various worktables and shelves as well?

Or DF dwarves automatically and in a superfast manner procure all survivalist tools (branch + small rock + grass = most anything) they need to build run basic workshop?  Immigrants would bring appropriate tools to do their job. Ever hear of a carpenter who didn't have his own tools?

One final thing.  All wooden furniture is not inferior to nailed/metal fastened furniture.  The only reason you see nails/screws in modern wooden furniture is that it requires less labor to build them that way.