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[Farthing]

This is a new-new thread about underwater stuff! Request stuff to be added to the list!

If it's above ground and doesn't have to do with water, here!

This is a brainstorming thread about features, creatures and events having to do with water. Please feel free to contribute your ideas, point out flaws, or provide useful images, links or source materials. This is an update and extension of Barbarossa the Seal God's old thread as he can no longer maintain the thread. the old thread can be found here

Note: This can be anything from storms to trenches of the deep.
This is not a discussion about game mechanics, balance issues, bugs or anything else not related to features, races, plants or animals pertaining to water or other liquids.
UNDER NO CONDITION is this thread meant to be the end all, be all absolute PROPER place to post a water related related suggestion. DO NOT go around berating others for not posting here. Instead invite them here, or link their suggestion into this thread.

Weather Features
Anything to do with the weather

• Flooding - Some super-heavy rainfall events that cause a 1/7 tile of water to appear when the rain hits anything. more and more water would build up, giving you a fairly good reason to cover the entrance to your dining hall with some hatches.
  
  
• Dangerstorms - Some storms can be downright outrageous. Hailstones the size of fists (up to the size of cows?) can harm anything they hit, and if they melt on the way down, super-blobs of water can cause landslides or just turn an open field into a muddy bog.
  
  
• Waterspouts - Tornadoes formed over the sea that cause huge amounts of water to swirl up into the clouds. Disastrous for ships.
  
  

Ruins and Structures:
In the long history of the world it is more than possible that a fortress or adventurer might find an ancient ruin made by a previous group. Also, this area is for building ideas.

• Sunken ships - Could provide a free artifact or two, and may be able to provide wine or oils along with metal bars and the like. Coins may also be present in them. Could also serve as a way to get otherwise unobtainable goods.
  
  
• Message in a Bottle - You may one day find a bottle with a treasure map or hastily scrawled note on the inside.
  
  
• River Chains - Massive chains strung across rivers to block access by boat while still allowing the river to flow.
  
  

Geological Features:
Anything having to do with land formations in the deep or on shore.

• Wadis - Dry riverbeds that may contain excessive amounts of scorpions and other desert creatures. During winter, they flow in a raging torrent, while in summer, the only nearby water is the groundwater beneath the wadi.
  
  
• Spit in the Bay - An outcropping partially blocking the mouth of a bay or cove. Prerequisite for a Baymouth Bar.
  
  
• Baymouth Bar - A sandbar blocking a deep bay that has only a single layer of water on top. Parts may stick out above water.
  
  
• Hot Springs - Like streams that produce another form of (warmer) water that doesn't freeze.
  
  
• Pretty rocks! - At the bottom of a river, there may be smooth boulders, (like a large gem but worth less) or smooth pebbles in a stream bed. (a cheap small gem)
  
  
• Coastal Cliffs - Cliffs by the coast where there is more than one Z-level.
  
  
• Bottomless Lakes - Lakes with an infinite depth. Rocks would fall endlessly, gigantic terrors of the deep would swim upwards at you, and sewer systems could dump in. An example of this would be (mythical) lake Voulismeni or the sea-tunnels of the Caribbean.
  
  
• Bottomless Lakes - Lakes with an infinite depth. Rocks would fall endlessly, gigantic terrors of the deep would swim upwards at you, and sewer systems could dump in. An example of this would be (mythical) lake Voulismeni or the sea-tunnels of the Caribbean.
  
  
• Aquatic Deposits - Water interacting with sediment creates a wide variety of minerals including Meerschaum, Travertine and Serpentine.
  
  
• Springs and River Sources - Aquifers could occur partially exposed resulting in a large lake at the source of a river, or an oasis in desert biomes. Might allow the formation of small civilizations.
  

Ocean Features
One of the classic features of DF is the joy of playing in and with the oceans. Now here are a few suggestions to make this even more enjoyable.

• Trenches- bottomless pits under ocean tiles that can spawn fun creatures or magma.
  
  
• Sea Caves - Like the caves now, but at the shoreline, and waves flow into them. all manner of crazed beasts could flop around in the shallows of this lair.
  
  
• Thar she blows! - A hole in the top of a sea cave acts like a whale's blowhole, shooting up water and occasionally creatures. All we need is some hyper-pressurized water and some critters to shoot it at!
  
  
• The pathway will reveal itself during the Blue Moon - Tidal Islands are only islands at high tide. At low tide, a small isthmus connects them to the mainland.
  
  
• Bays, Coves and Fjords, oh my! - Various round (cove), irregular (bay), or just plain lumpy (fjord) dents in the coastline would be classified as one of these, depending upon the type, different deposition of sediment may occur.
  
  
• Lagoon - An estuary that has been mostly filled with sediment becomes a lagoon, and has pockets of salt water surrounded by muddy sand.
  
  
• Brine Pools - Pools of extremely salty water at the seafloor which harbor an abundance of salt-loving sea life.
  
  
• Estuaries - Areas of fresh(ish) water behind a spit that contains extroardinary amounts of life.
  
  
• Tsunami - A huge wave caused by an offshore earthquake. May cover most of the map in water. The further you are inland, the less water there is. [init toggleable]
  
  

Subunda Creatures:
Any suggestion for improving or adding to the existing underwater creatures.

• Watery Megabeasts -
  
  • Kraken - In the deep sea, there dwell ginormigantic squids. Be caught at sea in a boat, and you're gonna get ate.
    
    
  • Leviathan - Amphibious gigantic whales with the ability to shoot high-temperature laser beams out of their eyes, causing eyes to melt and people to burn.
    
    
  • Snow Serpents - Dwelling inside of glaciers, when they are freed from their icy holes in the ground, they eat you and your dwarves to death. breathes ice.
    
    
  • Charybdis - Was essentially a giant mouth/whirlypool, so that could be interesting. (Anything it touches disappears forever!? Sweet living garbage dumps!)
    
    
  • Scylla - A huge monster, with 6 lizard heads, 6 dog heads, 3 shark heads, and 6 spiked tails, Scylla would likely be the Terror of the Deep.
    
    
• Crab People- Amphibious creatures with claw attacks
  
  
• Humboldt Squid - The ferocity of a shark, the tentacles of a cephalopod, and swarms of them.
  
  
• Raining Frogs and Fish - Yes, the ability for coastal stormfronts to pick up frogs and fish using their winds and evaporation. Frogs, Fish, and WHALES will rain from the sky, and the denizens of the coastline shall tremble in fear!
  
  
• Fresh fish - Fish caught recently may be eaten on the spot as a tasty (if disease-ridden) snack. Fish that have been out of the water too long will need cooking.
  
  
• Fomorians - Giant rulers of the deep, who send vast legions of dead sea critters to the surface to prey upon the locals. These may work as rulers for underwater civilizations just as Demons do for Goblins.
  
  
• Sea Hags - Half witch, half octopus. These things could lightning you to death while they strangle you with their tentacles. Some might say 'wizards of the deep'.
  
  
• Coral - Coral is nice and pretty, and attracts fish. When coral meets evil, however, the shells of the innocent coral form together and produce a towering monstrosity, a veritable colossus!
  
  
• Them dam' Beavers! Beavers on small to medium rivers might build dams, creating artificial lakes.
  
  
• Giant Turtles/Mollusks Giant sea creatures which function as mobile terrain. Build a fort on a turtle's back, build a house out of a giant snail shell. Also, rare medium-sized shells that can be used as metal-quality armor.
  
  

Ice and Glaciers
Anything to do with Ice, Glaciers, or Both.

• Avalanche! - When enough noise is produced on a steep snow-covered slope, a cascade of crushingly frozen ice particles may fall down the slope.
  
  
• Different Colored Glaciers - Glaciers often take in microscopic creatures of the sea and thus color themselves often making Green or Red lines on them. Add in Red, Orange, and Green Ice. These lines could be a form of 'vein' of ice, which would prevent a glacier from turning into a technicolor blob. Also, the veins would need to be rare enough to prevent the whole 'candy cane glacier world' effect.
  
  
• Icebergs - Floating chunks of ice.
  
  

Aquatic Resources
New things await in the depths.

• Gems of the Sea - Oysters and some Clams/Mussels create pearls when irritants enter their shells. Clam and Oyster colonies growing on sand could be harvested for food and pearls. Rare mollusks could drop special shells when they die , and coral deposits could also be a valuable decorative material.
  
  
• Ambergris - A highly flammable material made in the digestive systems of sperm whales. When you kill a Sperm Whale, it'd drop a chunk of this, which can then be used as a season-long torch.
  
  
• Sea Salt - Eventually, salt is deposited on beaches. This could either be harvested as sand is now, if you want to spice up some food, or simply mined, if you like statues.
  
  
• Driftwood - Driftwood stacks already exist, but it'd be nice if they were usable as normal wood.
  
  
• Whalebone - When whales die, their bones should be usable for special crafts or decoration, such as whalerib spears and supports, or just a nice design on a set of armor.
  
  
• Mollusc Dye - Its well known that mollusks produce a mucus that can be used as dye in real life, and it would be cool to do so in game.
  
  

Transient Water
Moving freshwater, lakes, swamps, or crazy moving saltwater

• Meanders and Oxbows - When a river hits a dense chunk of rock, it can either cut through or meander, based on its speed. If the river cuts through after the meander is formed, the river runs straight once again and an Oxbow lake is formed.
  
  
• Waterfall Erosion - Water falling from above is sure to cause a basin at the bottom where water collects before moving onward, as well as eroding away at the base of the cliff (see overhang)
  
  
• Great Lakes - Currently the only massive inland seas we have are saltwater. Civilizations may wish to settle on the shores of a lake to rival the size of Lake Baikal
  
  
• Lakes - Currently we have three bodies of motionless water- murky pools, oceans, and ocean-sized lakes. We need to have lakes that take up ~1 regional tile, so that we don't have to dig our own to get that fortress-on-or-under-a-lake vibe.
  
  
• Fords- sections of shallow water (or brook) where the water only comes up to waist height, and may be crossed.
  
  
• Catarakt - A zone in a river full of boulders and such where the water becomes more pressurized and speeds up.
  
  
• Riverbanks - In some areas, such as the meanders of a river, the river's banks become sloped and ramplike.
  
  
• Floppy Fish - When a river is drained, fish will flop about for a bit, waiting to be collected, instead of disappearing.
  
  
• Floodplains - Depending on the steepness of a river's banks and how big it is, Springtime floods would be in order. (for things like rivers, as your measly brooks aren't gonna flood over any time soon.)
  
  

Water Flora:
underwater plants, or plants that require at least 2/7 water to grow.

• Edible Plants - Plants such as rice that grow faster than land-based crops could be added to create more diversity in farmland.
  
  
• Seaweed - A plant that can be made into clothing, hammocks, food, or ropes.
  
  

Meta-game Modifications:
Some aspects of the game may have to be augmented to integrate the above suggestions.

• Pathing Underwater - So that fish people and underwater dwarves could go places with a goal in mind, instead of random flailing.
  
  
• Ship Combat - Obviously, we will need combat once we get ships. Safe-Keeper had a nice version.
  
  Spoiler (click to show/hide)

  :ordering the slaughtering of a new litter of kittens:
  
  Yaawn... :stretching: ...slow season so far, wish something would--
  
  *Fjordfalcon* of Woolsand the Longboat is approaching from the east!
  
  Yowzers, what is this? That's no carp! :throws away bloody butcher knife and kitty head, tears off apron and taps 'k' key; hovers cursor over craft on river for then to press Enter, spilling kitten blood on keyboard:
  
  

  This is *Fjordfalcon* of Woolsand, an exceptionally well-built Longboat. She is made from oak and is lined by shields on both sides. On the shields are colourful decorations. The vessel has a bow ornament in the shape of a cougar head, the symbol of the city of Rustbeard. On the vessel's sail is an image of a red horn, the symbol of the human Beardspire civilization. The vessel is being manoeuvred by rudder and oars. The vessel is under sail. The crew appears to be preparing to lower the sail.
  
  The vessel looks brand new, and most likely has not seen much action [read: there's no noteworthy records of this vessel in Legends -SK]
  
  The vessel is crewed by about two dozen well-armed, well-equipped men who appear to be readying to disembark. The men look to be in high spirits.

  
  Armok save me ! Siege operators, target the *Fjordfalcon* and fire at will! :mobilizes military while ordering siege operators to target the vessel and fire when ready:
  
  

  Urist McBallista Operator fires his ballista!
  Urist McCatapult Operator fires his catapult!
  The ballista arrow shatters the Longboat's bow ornament!
  The catapult stone cuts through the *Fjordfalcon*'s sail, tearing it badly!
  The catapult stone crashes through the *Fjordfalcon*'s mast, cutting it down!
  The *Fjordfalcon* is making for shore!
  The *Fjordfalcon*'s crew is dumbstruck by the unexpected attack!

  Ha-hah!Now look at you! Thought you could just rush ashore and make off with supplies, slaves and livestock like that last boatload, did ya!
  

  *Fjordfalcon* of Woolsand, Longboat of Beardspire
  Owned by Ragnar McRaider the Raider of Dwarves
  
  Agile
  
  Bow Port Hull
  Bow Starboard Hull
  Stern Port Hull
  Stern Starboard Hull
  Keel
  Bow Ornament
  Sail
  Mast
  Cargo
  Rudder                                  Crew in disarray
  
  g: Gen c: Crew  i: Crg [Materials and Cargo -SK] p: Pref w: Dmg
  Space: Done
  

  Bloodied your noses, have we? Blown the cougar head off of your pretty boat? Well, hold on tight, ya river-skulking scum, we're not through with you yet!
  

  Urist McCatapult Operator fires his catapult!
  The catapult stone crashes throught the *Fjordfalcon*'s port bow hull!
  Einar Stonemasher, Swordsman, and Ulf Goatbeard, Axeman, are killed by the catapult stone!
  The *Fjordfalcon* is flooding!
  The *Fjordfalcon*'s crew is abandoning ship!
  The *Fjordfalcon*'s crew is badly demoralized!
  The *Fjordfalcon* is going down!
  The *Fjordfalcon* has run aground!

  :whistles: Splash one Longboat! Now mop 'em up before they make it ashore! This'll make even Saving Private Ryan's opening scene look tame! :watches in glee as a welcoming party of Crossbowdwarves, Swordsdwarves, war dogs, mountain goats and carp rush for the Longboat's crew as they frantically scramble for shore:
  
  
• Off-map River Effects - Blood flows until it dissipates or hits the ocean, rivers dry up downstream from dams, and mob turncoats might swim back out further downstream, only to reappear later.
  
  
• Dwarven Divers - Dwarves able to navigate water to do jobs such as treasure/pearl hunting. Rudimentary underwater navigation devices such as diving bells and the one shown here.
  
  
• Seafaring Traders - A "docks" could be built for ships to land at. Could function as a trading depot for ships, or an unload point for Caravans carried within.
  
  
• Aquatic Mounts - With the addition of mounts, aquatic races should make use of them as well for trading and war. Dolphin Riders ho!
  
  

Formatting inspired by Othob Rithol's Underground Diversity Thread
Also, we have an Eternal Voting Suggestion option. VOTE HERE.

[Andeerz]

To add to aquatic resources:

Baleen from whales (if the right species).  This was used in addition to the bone for things like decorative stuff, corset ribs, and even armor and helmet crests for tournament use: http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=2769352.  Unfortunately, this cited article requires a paid membership to the journal to read, but it has that information in there.  Also, scrimshaw comes to mind: http://www.whalingmuseum.org/library/amwhale/am_scrim.html

http://www.mun.ca/mst/heroicage/issues/8/szabo.html
This article has a good deal of information and cites sources of whaling during the Medieval period.  It appears stranded whales were a prized and often fought-over commodity in some places, as they provided a lot of food and valuable resources.  Hell, it even has sources that talk about whale bones being used to build houses in some areas!  One thing I have not been able to find is if whale oil was used by medieval peoples.  It might be possible, but I'm not certain.

http://www.gallowglass.org/jadwiga/herbs/baths.html
Sponges were used in medieval times!  They were used at least for bathing, but perhaps there were other uses.

I'll keep an eye out for more stuff.

To add to creatures:

Anemones!    Big and small... complete with extractable poison (for the big ones).

Jellyfish... hmmm

Sea snails... also with poison!

[SirHoneyBadger]

Oh, you missed meerschaum, under water resources.  You've got coral, but you might want to list precious coral, and maybe precious shells as well, as an extractable resource?

Also, you could perhaps add travertine and related minerals, since those form around hot springs.

Gold can be panned from rivers, and minerals (sometimes in the form of huge boulders) can also be washed into rivers.

Also, Fomorians aren't classically dead, as in undead. They're monstrous, sortof mutant giants, that rule the Celtic drowned undead, and who were once the rulers of the Bright Lands (Tir Na' Nogth).

[Vattic]

I would love to see desert oases added to the game. Having them as their own biome would allow for desert civs to form around them and give them unique fauna and flora. They could vary in size from small pools with a few palm trees to massive expanses of water with plenty of plant life and surrounded by homes. They would be a valuable waypoint when crossing the desert.

You already have hot springs so why not normal ones? They would certainly, much like oases, help make certain places more hospitable. The mechanics could be as simple as having aquifer tiles that feed into small pools or narrow brook tiles. I like the idea of finding a bubbling fresh water spring and taking a draught before heading off to slaughter some dragon.

[Farthing]

The primary difference between whale-bone and traditional bones is that whale bones can be used in construction correct? If so wouldn't it be interesting to suggest a separate category of "giant <speciesname> bones" So a whale might drop a number of normal bones and a few giant bones that could be used in construction. Similarly this could also be used for Titans, Dragons and other Megabeasts.

Scrimshaw could be another job under bone-carving that is similar to "decorate with bone" but instead of producing bands or spikes, it produces an image. (on the item is an image of dwarves in whale bone. The dwarves are laboring).

Adding Travertine and Meerschaum under "Aquatic Deposits", changing "pearls" to "gems of the sea", adding coral and precious sea-shells to "Gems of the Sea",  and making changes to Fomorians.

Looking into adding more creatures such as snails, jellyfish and of course enemo..anamam...er anemonies

With regard to springs, how exactly do rivers originate currently in game? I've never embarked at a river source before.

[SirHoneyBadger]

I wonder how rivers work, too... 

                                     

Ideally, you'd have something arising from "bottomless" lakes, various springs, and rainwater, with everything streamlet and source, building on every other, until it all reaches the sea.

[Vattic]

With regard to springs, how exactly do rivers originate currently in game? I've never embarked at a river source before.

It's pretty ugly right now looking a bit like spiders legs and much like the ends of chasms looked in 40d, I haven't embarked on a river source tile since 40d however.

from the wiki, this is a chasm for those who never played 40d.

I'd like to see it improved. Springs, streams, and refilling pools seem like reasonable solutions.

[Farthing]

Ok, looking at that, I might have embarked on one once, but there weren't many resources on that map so I scrapped it. I definitely think that it should create a more lake-like look or something. Granted, most springs that I see in real life aren't in the mountains so I don't know if that's what a river source would be shaped like normally.

On another note, have trade-ships/docks ever been discussed in depth? I imagine they would function like a Trade-Depot that is placed in the water. Ships that come through can land there and trade goods contained in the ships. If there isn't a place to dock, the ship passes by. One issue with this is the redundancy with the Trade Depot.

Another possible way for this to work by having the ship contain a trade caravan. Zones along the water that the ship can approach can be designated as docking zones, where ships will come and drop off trade caravans, which then travel to the Trade Depot.

[harborpirate]

re: separate dock/trade depot, just let players build depots next to or possibly even in the water. I like the idea that some civs might want to trade with you via a water route.

[Farthing]

Sounds like it could work, but it would also almost require that your Trade Depot be located in an area open to attack, unless you want to carve an in-door harbor for your fort.

Also have to wonder, what conditions will cause a civ to want to trade over water.

Also, Adding Vattic's suggestion to both the Aboveground Diversity and Aquatic Diversity thread, as there is some overlap there.

[Max White]

Oh, this looks like fun! Although some of these would consume FPS, who cares, I support! And trust me, you don't want my support, as I'm one of those people that hang around and keep talking about potential ideas, sometimes even throwing in my own...

[bobsnewaddress]

Honestly all I really care about is fixing the pathfinding for flying/swimming creatures when you control them in Fortress Mode so that I can finally make Merperson Fortress.

[Erotic Bootlace]

I think there is a strong case for underwater biomes to get the same treatment as caverns, i.e. to get interesting features and underwater civilisations. However, such features can be put off for the moment because with Dwarves being primarily land animals (except for briefly, following certain types of unfortunate accident) we don't generally interact with the sea to any great extent. Eventually though, I'd like to see us be able to create a Merperson (or Cthulhu inspired evil-counterpart) character in adventure mode and be able to have just as fulfilling experience playing beneath the waves as a Human, Dwarf or pointed heared tree-hugging hippy Elf walking above land; or if not be able to do this in the vanilla game, at least have it possible to mod this in.

As far as I see it, at the moment the most important water-based features we need to see first of all are boats. Really we ought to be able to recieve water-based trade in the same manner of caravans, and perhaps even have invasions launched by boat where appropriate (i.e. when a fortress is built on an isolated island). This could tie in well with improvements to the trading system, I'd personally like to see us able to build our own trade caravans / boats and send them off to other nations.

*Edit: Somehow I missed this post

On another note, have trade-ships/docks ever been discussed in depth? I imagine they would function like a Trade-Depot that is placed in the water. Ships that come through can land there and trade goods contained in the ships. If there isn't a place to dock, the ship passes by. One issue with this is the redundancy with the Trade Depot.

Another possible way for this to work by having the ship contain a trade caravan. Zones along the water that the ship can approach can be designated as docking zones, where ships will come and drop off trade caravans, which then travel to the Trade Depot.

I love the idea of a ship containing the caravan, but I think the first option is best; a ship sails into dock, and goods are moved to / from the dock like a trade depot.*

[Kurouma]

I'd like to see it improved. Springs, streams, and refilling pools seem like reasonable solutions.

Yeah, in real life, rivers do have those net-like catchment basins, but over a much larger area. So these ones should probably be made longer and more dispersed, one and two tile wide brooklike things spread over a couple of embark tiles or something.

With streams/brooks/rivers, there needs to be no hard coded distinction between them. The amount of yearly rainfall and the drainage of the soil should determine how much surface water exists, and the local waterways should be scaled accordingly, the smaller ones being passable like brooks. I know the whole mechanic around that is broken right now. My money is on making slopes displace 4/7 water.

In fortress mode the rainfall/drainage simulation can go into a bit more detail and do it season-by-season, so rivers will swell and flood with meltwater from snow and dry up a bit in summer.

[antymattar]

Puddles should form when rain if falling. rivers should overflow. there should be mansoons.