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Author Topic: Studying Theist Atheism  (Read 9053 times)

Servant Corps

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Studying Theist Atheism
« on: November 05, 2010, 05:08:02 pm »

Some of you may have been familiar with a post I made, where 21% of atheists believed in God, made by Pew Forum of Religion and Public Life. This post may have been responsible for creating that mega-Atheist thread, which I apologize for, but I think it raised an interesting research question: what are these self-described atheists who believe in God (who I will describe as "Theist Atheists" for short)?

Well, to be perfectly honest, it was only interesting to me. It was boring for most other people, who either blamed the survey takers or the average people not knowing what atheism "means". Nevertheless, it bothered me.

There has actually been one other survey done in the US, done by Newsweek, which also had atheists and angostics professing belief in God, altough it was focused on the queston of "evolution".

This same trend may also apply in Britian as well, according to an Easter survey done by the Theos Think Tank:
Quote
The opinions of atheists are especially interesting. 23% of respondents identified themselves as such, but 14% of these think Easter was about Jesus dying for the sins of the world, 12% believe he rose again from the dead, and, remarkably, 7% think he was son of God.
And, according to the toplines, 4% of atheists think they will go to Heaven when they die, and 3% of atheists think they will be judged on their lives after their deaths. However, the survey itself specifically defined Atheism, "I am an atheist. I don't believe in the existence of God at all", so it's not as if this survey can be compared completely with the Pew Survey and the Newsweek survey.

On Feb. 25, 2008, the Pew Forum of Religion and Public Life released the dataset of "The U.S. Religious Landscape Survey" to anyone willing to use it for (1) research, scholarly or academic purposes, (2) the internal use of your business, or (3) your own personal, non-commercial use. I decided to sastify my own curiosity by looking at this Survey and learning for myself about Theist Atheism. I am also publishing what other information I find in about theist atheists (including a comment by one "theist atheist" himself) in this topic. Mostly, this is to gague interest into this topic...to see if I should spend more time on it or not.
---
Notes On Possible Methodological Errors:
1) I am a new person at interperting data and polls, and thus I may make mistakes that I may not realize. I would like for you to correct me on that.
2) Prew Survey did two polls, one poll in the continentnal US, and another supplemental poll in Alsaka and Hawaii. I am only using the continental US poll.
3) Pew Survey "weighed" the survey responses...I will not be doing so in my views, partially becuase I don't know how to do so.
4) The sub-groups which I am looking at are very, very small, and as a result there is a high margin of error that makes conclusions slightly hard. The margin of error for theist atheists is +/ 10%, which I think is pretty much unacceptable for any peer-review study.
5) The Pew Survey may have inaccurately classified people as atheists. It has asked people the following in its topline:
Quote
What is your present religion, if any? Are you Protestant, Roman Catholic, Mormon, Orthodox    such as Greek or Russian Orthodox, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, atheist, agnostic, something else, or nothing in particular?
INTERVIEWER: IF R VOLUNTEERS “nothing in particular, none, no religion, etc.” BEFORE REACHING END OF LIST, PROMPT WITH: and would you say that’s atheist, agnostic, or just nothing in particular?

Thus, if someone says he does not believe in anything, Pew will ask again to determine if he is atheist, agnostic, or nothing in particular, potentially swaying survey results. I cannot determine how many people were asked the first question, and then answered the second question "Atheist".
---
"The Pew Research Center and the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life bear no responsibility for the analyses or interpretations of the data presented here." (I am legally obligated to place this statement here as part of the terms and conditions for using this data set.)
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 05:10:18 pm by Servant Corps »
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Leafsnail

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Re: Studying Theist Atheism
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2010, 05:21:21 pm »

Could just be that some people like giving silly, contradictory evidence to surveys.

Or (this is a trick my brother, a survey veteran told me) they are paid by the question.  Answering vaguely means you're likely to get another question, and more money.  Answering contradictorily could net you more questions, too.
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Servant Corps

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Re: Studying Theist Atheism
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2010, 06:37:32 pm »

According to Princeton, the definition of atheist is "the doctrine or belief there is no God"/"a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods". This has been the standard definition of atheism, and as such, when confronted with the idea of 21% of atheists believing in a God, a person's standard reaction is to just claim that the people who answered the poll question just didn't know what the word "atheist" means.

There may actually be a way to test that hypothesis, in a round-about way.

The idea for this experiment came from a man named Razib Khan:
Quote
Razib Khan has a background in biology and biochemistry. He is a Unz Foundation Junior Fellow and lives in the Western United States.

He recently studied people who answered polls "heterodoxly" (example: non-theists who believe in an afterlife, Catholics who believe there is no afterlife, etc.). He concluded that there is a relationship between hetrodoxy and intelligence: non-theists who believe in an afterlife are less intelligence than atheists who disbelieve in an afterlife, and some religious people (including Catholics) who disbelieve in an afterlife are less intelligence than religious people who believe in an afterlife. He concluded:

"[T]hose who are less systematic in their thinking tend to exhibit these confusions, and, they don’t do as well academically in keeping with their lack of systematic thinking proficiency."

If Razib Khan is right, then this could provide a plausible reason for why Theist Atheists exist: if these people are "less systemic" in their thinking, and may not realize that they are using the word 'atheist' wrongly.

Razib Khan measured intelligence using WORDSUM, which has a 0.7 correlation with IQ. Pew did not measure intelligence in that manner. But they did ask people to tell their education level, and under the assumption that education correlates to intelligence, I decided to compare the education levels of Theist Atheists and Atheist Atheists (self-described atheists who say they do not believe in God). I have excluded studying 'atheists' who said "other" or "don't know" to the question of god existing.


Theist Atheists pre-dominate amongst Incomplete High School, Complete High School, Technical/Vocational School, and Incomplete College, while Atheist Atheists pre-dominate amongst Complete College, and Post-Graduate and Professional school.

I then coded education as a variable, with 1 being the lowest (None/Grade 1-8), and 7 being the highest (post-graduate/professional schooling). The average education level of Theist Atheists is 4.681, while the average education level of Atheist Atheist is 5.496. So it does appear as if Atheist Atheists have a higher education level than Theist Atheists.

However, is there a correlation between education level and belief-in-god amongst Atheists? To check, I coded 'belief in god' as a variable, with 1 being belief, and 0 being non-belief. The linear correlation between education and belief in God is 0.0495, which I find to be incredibly, incredibly low. I then determined the "coeffienct of determination" (R^2) value to be 0.0404. The coeffienct of determination usually varies between 0 and 1, with 0 indicating no lineral relatonship and 1 indicating a complete lineral relationship. A value like 0.0404 can be explained as "4% of the variation in education (Depedent Variable) can be explained by the independent variable (Belief in God)".

With such a very low correlation, and R^2 value, it appears as if Atheists' education level has very little effect on belief in God. I have to reject therefore Razib Khan's contention that hetrodoxoy can be explained by a lack of intelligence (assuming, of course, education is correlated with intelligence).

EDIT: I made a mistake here, I used the wrong correlation value of 0.0495...the correct correlation value was -0.8184, which is incredibly siginificant. However, the R^2 is the same, 0.0404, and this is why I reject the hypothesis.

EDIT2: (March 1st, 2011) The image file I used here broke, so I decided to reupload the image.
---
Since that was a rather lame post, I'll show off a quote by an Atheist who have proclaimed belief in God, which seemed to be very useful in orienating my research. This quote was in the comments of a New York Times blog, and I cannot verify if this quote is a troll or not. Nevertheless, it does offer some insight into at least a "section" of Theist Atheists. I'll examine this quote in detail and try to mine any hypothesis that I could then "test".

"Here’s another possible explanation for the discrepancy: Atheism is the rejection not of God, but of theism–or, to put it another way, the rejection of the God of theism.

My favorite example is Spinoza (perhaps because I am a Spinoza scholar). He was accused by many of his contemporaries of being an atheist, even though God is the most central concept in his entire philosophy. What he refers to as “God”, however, would not be recognized as such by many traditional believers.

He used the term “God” interchangeably with “Nature” (one often finds in his writing the phrase “deus sive natura”, “God or Nature”). This, however, should not be confused with pantheism which, as I understand the term, endows nature with a personality. Spinoza’s God is impersonal.

I believe that Spinoza’s God exists–and necessarily so, by definition (the totality of all that exists must exist!)–but would still consider myself an atheist.

The key point of contention, then, is over the notion of God. The survey distinguishes between personal and impersonal conceptions of God and I would be surprised if many of the professed atheists embraced a personal God. That just seems like a contradiction rather than a subtlety of belief.

Nonetheless, I imagine there’s a variety of rationales for answering survey questions in this way, and what I present is just one possible interpretation. I doubt most people are as thoughtful about the matter as Spinoza was."---DomE
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 02:12:45 pm by Servant Corps »
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alway

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Re: Studying Theist Atheism
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2010, 06:45:59 pm »

god/s != theism, atheism != a-deism

That said, ya, thats some tautalogical incompatibility in some of those answers.
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Servant Corps

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Re: Studying Theist Atheism
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2010, 06:56:15 pm »

Could just be that some people like giving silly, contradictory evidence to surveys.

Or (this is a trick my brother, a survey veteran told me) they are paid by the question.  Answering vaguely means you're likely to get another question, and more money.  Answering contradictorily could net you more questions, too.

That's a good point, and I actually wonder how do I determine if that is indeed the case. If I cannot, well, I can never exclude that possiblity existing, but I'll never be able to know for sure if it did happen. I guess that'll be another limitation in the US Religious Landscape Survey.

god/s != theism, atheism != a-deism

True, but I do want some sort of simple, short name that would let me easily refer to this subgroup. I'd be more than happy to change the name if there's a better and more descriptivie name out there.
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Sowelu

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Re: Studying Theist Atheism
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2010, 07:33:54 pm »

The opinions of atheists are especially interesting. 23% of respondents identified themselves as such, but 14% of these think Easter was about Jesus dying for the sins of the world, 12% believe he rose again from the dead, and, remarkably, 7% think he was son of God.

Well, yeah.  I'm not Christian.  But if you ask me "What's Easter?", I'll tell you what Easter as I know it is about (which is basically that answer).  If you ask me "What happened on Easter?", I'll say "Well I guess he rose from the dead, didn't he?  Also I made myself sick on candy last year."  If you ask me "Who was Jesus anyway?" I'll shrug and say "Son of God?".

But then if you ask me who Gandalf is, I'll say "He's a wizard", too.
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Servant Corps

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Re: Studying Theist Atheism
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2010, 08:28:53 pm »

The opinions of atheists are especially interesting. 23% of respondents identified themselves as such, but 14% of these think Easter was about Jesus dying for the sins of the world, 12% believe he rose again from the dead, and, remarkably, 7% think he was son of God.

Well, yeah.  I'm not Christian.  But if you ask me "What's Easter?", I'll tell you what Easter as I know it is about (which is basically that answer).  If you ask me "What happened on Easter?", I'll say "Well I guess he rose from the dead, didn't he?  Also I made myself sick on candy last year."  If you ask me "Who was Jesus anyway?" I'll shrug and say "Son of God?".

But then if you ask me who Gandalf is, I'll say "He's a wizard", too.
I admit that, in retrospect, I shouldn't have added that study in my OP. My bad, Sowelu.
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Re: Studying Theist Atheism
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2010, 11:20:02 am »

This has been an interesting topic so far and Sowelu beat me to my main point.

I must admit when I first heard of "Theist Atheists" I was confounded but later remembered both Spinoza and Einstein's ideas of "God" as impersonal and almost completely unlike what most people would consider to be divine. It does seem a little dishonest to answer a survey using your own non-orthodox definitions for words used in the questions. At very least it would skew the results.
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Eagleon

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Re: Studying Theist Atheism
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2010, 12:19:18 pm »

Quote
What is your present religion, if any? Are you Protestant, Roman Catholic, Mormon, Orthodox    such as Greek or Russian Orthodox, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, atheist, agnostic, something else, or nothing in particular?
INTERVIEWER: IF R VOLUNTEERS “nothing in particular, none, no religion, etc.” BEFORE REACHING END OF LIST, PROMPT WITH: and would you say that’s atheist, agnostic, or just nothing in particular?
This I have an issue with. Not sure if it's a significant portion of the polled or not (I doubt it, honestly), but the 'etc.' bothers me, because it can introduce bias from the interviewer himself, intentional or otherwise, potentially letting him decide vague or unusual answers fit into that category. More, 'something else' is very likely close to 'nothing in particular' in concept to someone with very strong religious beliefs. It's not difficult to imagine some of the people that answered with this being slotted into 'nothing', and then being given the confusingly limited options of athiest or bust.

By common definition, for instance, I'm an atheist, despite the fact that I believe that the universe is very likely simulated, quite possibly intentionally, leaving open the possibility of an afterlife. It's easy to make the argument that whatever created/is running the simulation (if anyone at all) is our 'god'. I've always thought this was just semantics and that it doesn't matter much. How would an interviewer take my position, though, especially if I were pressed for time and simply answered "Simulationist"?
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DJ

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Re: Studying Theist Atheism
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2010, 12:24:04 pm »

What's afterlife like in that belief system? You get to hang around in unused bits of memory until some program requests it?
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Re: Studying Theist Atheism
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2010, 12:32:11 pm »

Who knows? It could be one massive VM for developing AI. They could be plucking the 'righteous' and deleting the 'damned' for all I know, making it functionally indistinguishable from every other religious belief. Or we could be waste heat from an incredibly computationally dense colony of bacteria, I don't know. It's just easy to imagine that if we're intentional, they might want to keep copies of those that have 'died'.
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Re: Studying Theist Atheism
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2010, 12:38:01 pm »

there's also the fact that people might label themselves as atheists if they don't follow any particular religion, even if they do believe in a god.

myself, I believe that it's quite impossible to know what's really out there, but a God that's not part of this universe, and is as infinitely more complex than us than we are to your average Dorf, makes a lot of sense to me.
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Re: Studying Theist Atheism
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2010, 12:40:36 pm »

I'm a apatheist. Its a thing.

I don't believe in god, but then again, I don't particularly care either way.
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Re: Studying Theist Atheism
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2010, 01:02:10 pm »

I didn't think apatheist was a word.

I am an apatheist too

DJ

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Re: Studying Theist Atheism
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2010, 01:04:48 pm »

Yeah, well, I'm an apatheosaurus, beat that!
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