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Author Topic: Bit of a Problem with some Miners...  (Read 5099 times)

Chilton

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Bit of a Problem with some Miners...
« on: September 24, 2011, 11:31:21 pm »

***Issue Resolved. Read My Third Reply.***

Ok, ill Detail this as best I can.

I Started out, and Mined a Corridor.
At the End, I used "Channel" to go Down 1 Z-Level.
The Dwarfs can move Fine, Up and Down there.
I did the same again, going Down another Z-Level, and for Reasons Unknown to Me, they Cannot get back Up.
I even Dug out a New Room where theyre Trapped, and Built an Upward Ramp, and Upward Stairs.
They still wont go Up.
And Nobody can get Down there, either.

Is there something I dont know, or...?

EDIT:
For some Perspective;

▼ Works fine to go from the Entrance, Down 1 Z-Level, or Back Up.
The same thing doesnt Work going from -1Z to -2Z, or Back.
And the < isnt Helping. For Reasons Unknown to Me.

And My Poor Miners are Slowly Dieing. :(
« Last Edit: September 25, 2011, 12:49:52 am by Chilton »
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BeforeLifer

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Re: Bit of a Problem with some Miners...
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2011, 11:45:41 pm »

is the second channel on the same tile as the first? if so you just fked you miners over. Ramps only work for z level up/down. I would recomend that you quicking dig out a staircause for them. Also if the digging is like this.

Code: [Select]
=====
'''''
=^'''
==^''
===^'
''''^
They will NOT be able to get up from the bottem to the second from the bottem. That is because in order for ramps to work, they have to be placed next to a wall and they can only let a dwarf go up in the direction of the wall.
Hope this helps.
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Chilton

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Re: Bit of a Problem with some Miners...
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2011, 12:06:41 am »

I even tried Building New Ramps from Below.
And I cannot Dig Down from Above, since I only have the Two Miners.



If there is actually no way out of this, I can dig their sorry asses out to a nearby Dip in a Hill. But id rather not have to, as itd screw up the Architecture a bit.
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Chilton

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Re: Bit of a Problem with some Miners...
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2011, 12:49:29 am »

With Armoks Praises I Fixed It.

For Future Reference:
If you Build Stairs going Up, you then need to move the Camera Up, and Build Stairs going Down, on TOP of the Stairs going Up.
I still have NO Idea why the Channels wont Work, but Screw It. :P
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jhxmt

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Re: Bit of a Problem with some Miners...
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2011, 05:31:27 am »

For reference, the ramps/channels circled in yellow stopped working because you dug out the wall behind them.

To work, ramps need to be going from a floor, up onto a floor on top of a wall/unmined earth.  They can't do up onto just a floor with empty space beneath it.

Example side view (forgive the awful diagram):
Code: [Select]
               
           ____
__________/OOOO

...would be fine (where _ is floor, / is your ramp and O is a wall or unmined earth).

Whereas:
Code: [Select]
               
           ____
__________/   

...would not be fine (where you've mined out the earth under the upper floor), and your ramp will cease working.

Hope that helps!

Edit: hang on, that doesn't explain why your green-circled ramps are working fine.  Hmm.  My explanation may be flawed.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2011, 05:33:13 am by jhxmt »
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Why Your Ramps Don't Work
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Chilton

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Re: Bit of a Problem with some Miners...
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2011, 07:17:48 am »

For reference, the ramps/channels circled in yellow stopped working because you dug out the wall behind them.

To work, ramps need to be going from a floor, up onto a floor on top of a wall/unmined earth.  They can't do up onto just a floor with empty space beneath it.

Example side view (forgive the awful diagram):
Code: [Select]
               
           ____
__________/OOOO

...would be fine (where _ is floor, / is your ramp and O is a wall or unmined earth).

Whereas:
Code: [Select]
               
           ____
__________/   

...would not be fine (where you've mined out the earth under the upper floor), and your ramp will cease working.

Hope that helps!

Edit: hang on, that doesn't explain why your green-circled ramps are working fine.  Hmm.  My explanation may be flawed.

Furthermore, they didnt stop working. They NEVER worked.
I dug out the Wall after 5 Minutes of this, to Free up the Side Wall, to make the Second Set of Ramps you see, that didnt work Either.

:)
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Ethnar

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Re: Bit of a Problem with some Miners...
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2011, 07:33:05 am »

I see your pics and I perfectly get it why the ramps are not "working".

See, if you build a ramp - to use it moving up the ramp - dwarf needs to walk on the ramp tile (z-1 level) and then move onto a tile that has wall underneath it (z level)
In other words - for ramp to work, there must be wall tile next to it and right above that wall tile there must be floor tile. Look at your pics again - that's not the case. You either have Wall/Wall, Floor/Floor or Wall(z)/Floor(z-1). What you need is Floor(z)/Wall(z-1).

To walk down the ramp it's the same - stand on a floor tile that is placed on a wall tile (z) and then walk on the ramp (z-1).

Also - you may be wondering why ramps marked with green work. The fact is - they don't, only 1 on each side is working - the one on the left (diagonally you have a Floor tile, then Wall one level under it).

Hopes this helps, it's really recommended to get to know how ramps work, especially now that channeling creates a ramp and you will end up with some one way or another.
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Chilton

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Re: Bit of a Problem with some Miners...
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2011, 07:46:24 am »

I see your pics and I perfectly get it why the ramps are not "working".

See, if you build a ramp - to use it moving up the ramp - dwarf needs to walk on the ramp tile (z-1 level) and then move onto a tile that has wall underneath it (z level)
In other words - for ramp to work, there must be wall tile next to it and right above that wall tile there must be floor tile. Look at your pics again - that's not the case. You either have Wall/Wall, Floor/Floor or Wall(z)/Floor(z-1). What you need is Floor(z)/Wall(z-1).

To walk down the ramp it's the same - stand on a floor tile that is placed on a wall tile (z) and then walk on the ramp (z-1).

Also - you may be wondering why ramps marked with green work. The fact is - they don't, only 1 on each side is working - the one on the left (diagonally you have a Floor tile, then Wall one level under it).

Hopes this helps, it's really recommended to get to know how ramps work, especially now that channeling creates a ramp and you will end up with some one way or another.

I... Theoretically see what youre Saying.
Except for One Issue:
Where the Yellow is on Z-2, that used to have Wall, Above it (As in, behind it above it), and on its Left Hand Side. I cut it all out to try and Build the new way back up. So, there WERE Ramps in Corners. That werent working. Unless ive misinterprited something.
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Ethnar

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Re: Bit of a Problem with some Miners...
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2011, 07:53:06 am »

Hard for me to say anything about what was built in there, since I don't get a really clear picture from your description.

Would you kindly build that setup you say should be working and yet it wasn't working and post screenshots of it?

Ramps and walls can be built, floors channeled, and channels floored, so it shouldn't really devastate any of your current work.
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forsaken1111

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Re: Bit of a Problem with some Miners...
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2011, 07:59:03 am »

With Armoks Praises I Fixed It.

For Future Reference:
If you Build Stairs going Up, you then need to move the Camera Up, and Build Stairs going Down, on TOP of the Stairs going Up.
I still have NO Idea why the Channels wont Work, but Screw It. :P
The stair thing... that's covered in the wiki. It is a bit confusing though I suppose.
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Chilton

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Re: Bit of a Problem with some Miners...
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2011, 08:09:14 am »

Hard for me to say anything about what was built in there, since I don't get a really clear picture from your description.

Would you kindly build that setup you say should be working and yet it wasn't working and post screenshots of it?

Ramps and walls can be built, floors channeled, and channels floored, so it shouldn't really devastate any of your current work.

I will later - The Structure has changed a bit, and id have to reroute several doors, to try and force people to use them. Which is easy, except that Sleeping at Night limits my Screw-With-Doors-Which-Might-Disrupt-My-Main-Source-Of-Food Time :)
But essentially: If X = Wall

Z-1
XXXXXX
X▼▼▼▼▼▼▼X

Same on Z-2.
This is why it confused me. It SHOULD have worked. At least I know how to use Stairs now.

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Ethnar

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Re: Bit of a Problem with some Miners...
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2011, 08:16:32 am »

If you have exactly the same layout of floors and walls on both levels - that won't work.

Look, your "green" working ramps are actually:

z-1
Code: [Select]
XXXXX
X▼▼▼X
....X

z-2
Code: [Select]
XXXXX
X▲▲▲X
X...X

Notice the bottom-left tile. It's "." on z-1 and "X" on z-2 - thus that one ramp on the left is working.
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Chilton

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Re: Bit of a Problem with some Miners...
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2011, 09:25:24 am »

If you have exactly the same layout of floors and walls on both levels - that won't work.

Look, your "green" working ramps are actually:

z-1
Code: [Select]
XXXXX
X▼▼▼X
....X

z-2
Code: [Select]
XXXXX
X▲▲▲X
X...X

Notice the bottom-left tile. It's "." on z-1 and "X" on z-2 - thus that one ramp on the left is working.
I think I see. It doesnt make much sense, but I think I get it :)
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CapnUrist

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Re: Bit of a Problem with some Miners...
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2011, 04:56:13 pm »

I've made something of an illustrated explanation, using a constructed mock-up on my test embark and Overseer for screenshots, as I've found that good pictures make everything easier to understand.

Ramps take their direction from walls adjacent. If a ramp has no wall, it's considered to have no direction, and no purpose for z-level movement; the most common place you see this is as the point on top of a pyramid, like this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

When a ramp has a wall adjacent, it can be used in that direction. To use it in that direction, there has to be a straight-line path along that direction of ramp-floor, with the end floor on TOP of the wall that gives the ramp direction, such that it looks like this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

What is happening in your situation is that you're not giving your ramps a wall in the direction they need. Instead, the wall is in the opposite direction and the floor is floating. Ramps cannot use floating floors! This should make it clear why:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Your dwarves would have to jump the gap, and dwarves never jump. To fix the green-circled ramps, dig out the outer wall on the ground floor OR dig out the wall of that little antechamber the ramps are in and place walls on the inside edges of the ramps, like so

Code: [Select]
.......
X▲▲▲▲▲X
XXXXXXX
.......
XXXXXXX
X▼▼▼▼▼X
.......

To make the ramps you had at the yellow circle work, all you needed was to place walls inside them as well. As a general rule when working with ramps and channels, don't change direction at the ramp! Straight lines guarantee good movement.
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jaxler

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Re: Bit of a Problem with some Miners...
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2011, 08:15:26 pm »

last time all my minners died I

step 1
click the power button for 15 seconds.

step 2
pour drink

step 3
drink drink

step 4
pick up laptop and hold it firmly

step 5
trow laptop at wall

step 6

give middle finger to armok
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“Ok, Neo ChosenUrist, before you is two levers. Pull the Kimberlite lever -- you wakeup in a random bed and have whatever thoughts you want to think. You pull the Bauxite lever -- you stay in the caverns and I show you how deep the adamantine hole goes.” - psalms