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[Imp]

Here is the annoying thing, Jim can definitely be Evil & I don't think anyone (atleast not me) has suggested they are completely clear.

How though? There are only two dopps. Crystal was killed by a dopp (her bones were gnawed). Jim claims to have acted on Magma, revealing Magma hasn't left his house and Magma hasn't denied this. Aliens can't watch people's houses (that I've seen in the role list). Jim would have to be lying and be making a very lucky claim about Magma in order for him to be a doppelganger or alien. Strictly speaking, not completely impossible, but I really don't see the scenario that makes sense here.

Possible sets I believe are not ruled out:

Magma Exterminator, Jim Exterminator Operative.  They got shocking much tech between them, not sure if they have a chat too.  Jim and Magma can freely lie about anything, they apparently know who they are (they gotta in order to trade tech?  They maybe NEED a chat and to know who each other are?  It's not expressly stated to have a chat though)

If Magma was roleblocked, and Jim... well it's still risk to claim that Jim is a sneak.  But Jim can claim he saw Magma not do anything.  And there's still the second dop out there if this is our reality, one who chewed Crystal.  But if Jim knew nobody targeted him?  Or thought that the claim made sense for other reasons?

I still don't have an eval I feel like I deeply understand on hivemind, so I don't rule that out.  Like if Jim KNEW that Magma did something psychic to Jim, do all or some psychic things happen from home?  If so, then it's a safe claim 'didn't leave the house' and actually happened so anyone with info would confirm it; anyone with psychic info if that exists doesn't counter it, just adds and Jim's still fine in his claim.

But that covers ANY psychic thing, if any.  So I think Jim could make a few fake claims.  Jim can also be honest, far as I see so far.

Am I off in what I think I see?

[Imp]

right now I'm outright insulted to have been compared to you.

In this game only, and of course I wasn't gonna discuss what I think about role claims, at that time.

People are discussing more?

If everyone's telling the truth... well.  Ignoring what Mater.

If Jim, AP, and you (and Toony) are saying is true.  One of the ways for that to be so is for you all to have similar roles (or be claiming similar roles/role restrictions).  Or for some of you to.  Or I'm confused about how to read the mechpost.

[Imp]

Magma Mater. I'm not going to put up with this pussyfooting in and out business. Are you specifically committed to claiming that you A) are a telepath and B) targeted Anime and C) received a result of "Survive"? As far as I can tell, that's the only way your claim can hang together. If you won't commit to this or some other theory that works, I am simply going to assume you are mistaken.

I think I see other possible ways this can happen, and be honest.  (As well as many possible ways to lie about it)

[Jim Groovester]

Unvote.

I think NQT was poking at why I didn't get psychically chained by him wardening Magma Mater. I think psychic wardens target the player, not the home.

Sorry ToonyMan but I trust Monday pretty hard here.

Post from phone, don't have a lot of time to poke at stuff.

[Jim Groovester]

If town wins through night action poe that doesn't even necessarily target a remaining dopp player that's not going to be particularly satisfying.

[Imp]

I mean, does it matter? Either I'm human and telling the truth, or doppelganger (in which case AnimePigeon is still human).

It matters to me because you seem to be lying and I'm not sure why.

But sure, you're not Crystal's killer and you're using that status to vouch for animepigeon. Maybe because you're convinced this will be a mis-elim and you're happy to lie to avoid that fate. The other (unlikely) possibility is that you're a dopp-aligned rogue doppelganger and you're trying to muddy the waters.

And TO BE FAIR, I have been saying that AnimePigeon is 100% not a doppelganger since the start of the day. For some reason it's been ignored by everyone.

There's a big difference between stating your opinion forcefully and claiming to have hidden information.

Yeah.  If we go by dop=crystal killer.

And not-crystal killer = not-dop.

There's a number of ways I think?  I'm pretty sure.  That Mater could have stayed home AND verified that AP didn't visit Crystal.

Stayed home, visited someone else.

But presuming every dop that exists MUST visit crystal N1.  There's multiple ways to notice someone not visit crystal, and thus not be a dop (but does there exist such that is-dop and didn't have to visit crystal, or could appear to have not done so - that I'm weaker on feeling sure about).

[Salvatore Monday]

It's sneaky and subtle.  Sal's the kinda player I might naturally have a lot of anger towards; Sal's spent some time out of game helping me understand and value Sal.  They were good lessons; I value Sal hugely as an ally when ally.  Sal gets some extra 'hrm, that's a lie, but what kind?' credit from me, instead of 'that's a lie, I don't see the point, now I hate you'.  Went through that stage with Sal oocly; he earned a Sal-shaped spot in my regards.  He can use or abuse it, it isn't fixed.  But fascinating and fun; in a sense Sal's in 'as precarious' a position with me as Verm - I can't read Sal, so there's like a behavior contract of expectations from me to him

I think Sal can spin a lie that saves town and destroys anti-town; that's not just 'oh he lies' it's 'oh, he can shape outcomes'.  I've agreed inside my own head to accept his methods because they can lead to outcomes I value, at a high level of leading and valuing.  So he gets extra credit from me.

If he's town he's high value town, even though he doesn't necessarily look it.

I don't expect Sal to 'look' very good.  I expect high quality useful pro-town outcomes from his behavior over time.  And I expect to destroy him if that doesn't happen.

I value this statement enormously.

Magma Mater. I'm not going to put up with this pussyfooting in and out business. Are you specifically committed to claiming that you A) are a telepath and B) targeted Anime and C) received a result of "Survive"? As far as I can tell, that's the only way your claim can hang together. If you won't commit to this or some other theory that works, I am simply going to assume you are mistaken.

I think I see other possible ways this can happen, and be honest.  (As well as many possible ways to lie about it)

I was being very specific in defining that as the only way he could accurately say he was 100% certain that Anime is human. I was also wrong, because there's still an alien that gives "survive" that I missed.
As he walked the claim back to "certain that Anime didn't kill Crystal", it isn't relevant.

[AnimePigeon]

I must be misreading my feedback to some degree then - who knows 🤷‍♀️

You're not misreading it, it just doesn't mean what you think - it's not a watch result.

Thanks Sal!

Unvote for the time being - will re-assess who I want to vote before I go to bed in a few hours.

[Salvatore Monday]

I was being very specific in defining that as the only way he could accurately say he was 100% certain that Anime is human. I was also wrong, because there's still an alien that gives "survive" that I missed.
As he walked the claim back to "certain that Anime didn't kill Crystal", it isn't relevant.

(I was also ignoring the possibility of an advanced mind shield but that was on purpose.)

[Imp]

I never said I was a telepath, where are you getting that from? 

You implied it when you said you didn't get a "kill" result. Telepath is the only role that learns player's goals. Everyone in the game who isn't a telepath also didn't get a "kill" result. So now you're saying you were just being obtuse on top of also lying.

Last chance Magma, go read your role pm and make sure you're not mistaken on anything.


Magma might be a Hivemind, trying to protect AnimePigeon, his new ally (and even then, I'm not he'd have enough tech for this to make sense with Jim's result)... but I doubt Meph would make a nine player, 2-dopp game with a Hivemind... would he??

Not getting a kill result is inside the same as not getting any result, it just means the whole of 'not kill result' (if honest) is in play.  It's a way of not claiming anything specific - Mater could be a vig who holstered and say "I didn't get a kill result, is that enough?" - of course, in that case, he should if town not be saying he's 100% mech sure that AP is not-dop.  So whatever he is, if honest and town, he's not vig.  There are roles who could/would reasonably say that though, and be trying to conceal or obscure other info about themselves.

Though it's bad for everyone if there's any chance that this interpretation of 100% not dop on AP could possibly be wrong.  Like, if someone else could correctly parse a result and realize it doesn't mean '100% not dop' but the person with it reads it to '100% not dop' in error... or even if nobody could catch it, but it's still a wrong understanding, we're better off without the mistaken 'fact' clouding stuff up.

[AnimePigeon]

I find the inability to thumb 👍 posts damaging to my psyche 😭 😂

[Salvatore Monday]

I find the inability to thumb 👍 posts damaging to my psyche 😭 😂

I'm glad you can't...

[Imp]

It's sneaky and subtle.  Sal's the kinda player I might naturally have a lot of anger towards; Sal's spent some time out of game helping me understand and value Sal.  They were good lessons; I value Sal hugely as an ally when ally.  Sal gets some extra 'hrm, that's a lie, but what kind?' credit from me, instead of 'that's a lie, I don't see the point, now I hate you'.  Went through that stage with Sal oocly; he earned a Sal-shaped spot in my regards.  He can use or abuse it, it isn't fixed.  But fascinating and fun; in a sense Sal's in 'as precarious' a position with me as Verm - I can't read Sal, so there's like a behavior contract of expectations from me to him

I think Sal can spin a lie that saves town and destroys anti-town; that's not just 'oh he lies' it's 'oh, he can shape outcomes'.  I've agreed inside my own head to accept his methods because they can lead to outcomes I value, at a high level of leading and valuing.  So he gets extra credit from me.

If he's town he's high value town, even though he doesn't necessarily look it.

I don't expect Sal to 'look' very good.  I expect high quality useful pro-town outcomes from his behavior over time.  And I expect to destroy him if that doesn't happen.

I value this statement enormously.

Glad.  You earned it, and I can tell for many reasons you place value on it and why it can exist (like a person who values a zucchini likely values zucchini plants, pollinators, soil quality, and the rest that goes into a prize-winning zucch).

I also appreciate it maybe affects your playstyle more than sometimes, but I value you adjusting to not squish the Esk in real-ouch ways.

[ToonyMan]

@Imp & AP:
I have a majority so it doesn't actually matter what you two think unless I can convince a Toony voter.

I don't believe I can convince a Toony voter.

[AnimePigeon]

Unvote.

I think NQT was poking at why I didn't get psychically chained by him wardening Magma Mater. I think psychic wardens target the player, not the home.

Sorry ToonyMan but I trust Monday pretty hard here.

Post from phone, don't have a lot of time to poke at stuff.

Apologies if I'm wrong, but don't you need to bold your unvote & vote?

I'm just so used to votes not being counted if not bolded 😂