You need to think vertically. Consider crafting an exploration vessel called the Pillar of Autumn, which has mega-tall walls, a quadruple-thick floor, but no ceiling. The dwarves and any supplies you wish to send in with them get loaded onto what will eventually be the outer ceiling.You just re-created "The Core" in Dwarf Fortress. I think Einstein, Freud, and Newton just simultaneously rolled over.
Drop the structure and marvel as the walls remain in place, 2 z-levels taller than the magma. The dwarves stare upwards in awe at the 6-z-level caisson you've built them... and then tunnel into the 4-layer-thick floor, creating room for the supplies. The dwarves migrate back and forth happily, moving booze into their new dining hall, beds into their barracks, and a breeding pair of cows into the abbatoir. One dwarf hollers up when the farm plots are ready, and the mothership opens a storm drain. Water goes everywhere, but the important thing is that it gets the farm plot muddied. Seeds are planted. The water on top of the vessel eventually evaporates out. All is in readiness, so the explorers retreat belowdecks to draw lots.
One lone dwarf returns to the upper deck. He deconstructs the stairs he came from, builds a bauxite floor over the top hatch, and takes a copper pick over to one wall.
Tink. Tink. Tink...
What if the stone you used was magma safe? Look for a site with bauxite and try again :D .
Also I still see potential in making a dropship containing legendary warriors and dropping it on a goblin siege or the pits just for awesomeness.
Considering the general state of DF, I think Einstein and Newton are already rotating fast enough that you could hook them up to pumps and use them to kill Elves.You need to think vertically. Consider crafting an exploration vessel called the Pillar of Autumn, which has mega-tall walls, a quadruple-thick floor, but no ceiling. The dwarves and any supplies you wish to send in with them get loaded onto what will eventually be the outer ceiling.You just re-created "The Core" in Dwarf Fortress. I think Einstein, Freud, and Newton just simultaneously rolled over.
Drop the structure and marvel as the walls remain in place, 2 z-levels taller than the magma. The dwarves stare upwards in awe at the 6-z-level caisson you've built them... and then tunnel into the 4-layer-thick floor, creating room for the supplies. The dwarves migrate back and forth happily, moving booze into their new dining hall, beds into their barracks, and a breeding pair of cows into the abbatoir. One dwarf hollers up when the farm plots are ready, and the mothership opens a storm drain. Water goes everywhere, but the important thing is that it gets the farm plot muddied. Seeds are planted. The water on top of the vessel eventually evaporates out. All is in readiness, so the explorers retreat belowdecks to draw lots.
One lone dwarf returns to the upper deck. He deconstructs the stairs he came from, builds a bauxite floor over the top hatch, and takes a copper pick over to one wall.
Tink. Tink. Tink...
That is unfortunate. What about a double-hulled structure, or triple-hulled, with water filling the inner hull? If obsidian is created in that magma, would that also melt away?
Thanks. It's my engineering mindset, which pretty much every DF player has to some extent.
I mean, I'm thinking of dwarven biospheres, where they are locked into a room at the middle of a cast obsidian structure with a stockpile of seeds, booze, a bed, a table and chair, a pick, etc. The room is filled with water, the structure is dropped, causing the door to auto-deconstruct and draining the water out into the farming area. Then the dwarf begins to build their own bedroom and dining table, plant seeds and set up the still, sealed beneath the waves. And then... you could drop another dwarf on top of them, or to the side, and create a larger colony.
And now... I'm thinking of a fractal colony of spheres packed in a pyramid.
[ tabl ]
[stat char stat]
[ wall wall door wall wall]
[-------------- flor ---------------]
[farm kitchen flor still farm]
[-------------- flor ---------------]
[wall wall door wall wall]
[cabt flor cofr]
[bed ]
I have high hopes for you in Goldanguishes now.
Also, in the 5x5x5 case with 3x3x3 (1z of water), what was the end configuration, and was the dwarf stunned?
...um... what freud has to do with physics?
Maybe some dwarves will write songs about these constructions.Orthoclase submarine, orthoclase submarine, orthoclase submarine...
We all live in a magma submarine, a magma submarine, a magma submarine...
I'm going to give this a try. I think the pods into the ocean are the most likely to yield positive results. With that said, what does one dwarf need to be happy, and more importantly, to live?
food - plump helmet seeds - should take care of food and booze needs, if you have him eat raw plump helmet
construction materials - for a still, table, chair, bed, carpenter's workshop (to make that furniture in)
am I missing anything?
(a mining pick, to connect to other pods when that becomes possible) For clarification, do you have to cast the pods from obsidian or can you simply construct them with double-thick floors? I'm a little confused on how the exact physics work.
Okay, so I'll have to dig down to the magma sea or whatever, pump lava up, cast big blocks of it, drop it into the ocean (with a dwarf and supplies inside), then actually make sure he lives? This is getting quite complex. I like it. I don't have much of any experience with magma casting, but it should be simple enough, if I can get through all the other challenges of building it.
Before cave-in:
WWW
WdW
WWW
After cave-in
W W
WWW
WWWW's are walls, d is a dwarf, space is well... space. In the second figure, the dwarf is dead, squashed under the block of stone that just fell on top of him.I'm tempted to try this myself because my latest embark is a huge freshwater lake with a volcano in it.
I come bearing terrible news, my friends. I have carved out (as in dug around) a stone pillar, 5x5 and fiftysomething Z-levels high, suspended by a single floor tile in midair just above the surface of the great magma sea. This time, there was no dwarf inside it as it fell for two reasons - I had no access to water and I have already tested that the fall can be survived). My hypothesis was that it, being a natural wall, wouldn't melt and so would just sink several Z-levels until it reached the semi-molten rock (which I knew was there) and stay there. In case of failure, I expected that it would melt level by level until it disappears into the magma. What happened, though, completely defied my expectations. A miner channeled out the one tile holding the entire thing in place. The pillar fell the one z-level. It touched the magma and... the bottom half of it evaporated. E-VAPORATED. The upper half (not exactly probably, I don't really know) turned into 7/7 squares of magma, which then proceeded to fall down the now empty shaft and increase the level of magma.
Now, while this obviously makes any further attempts at making a magmasub futile, it creates a lot of new options, because it is essentially a very simple, if non-renewable, way to move magma fast to upper levels of your fortress, eliminating the need to use pumps.
Apparently Dwarves CAN stand on support tiles.
Fill the room up with support tiles. The only problem being that you'll not be able to send supplies with him... Hmm.
Actually, thinking about it, wouldn't the support collapse on impact (being a constructed building).Not if it crashed into water. Magma, maybe.
Actually, thinking about it, wouldn't the support collapse on impact (being a constructed building).
Interesting problem. Is there a good way to find a deep ocean? I've been finding bodies of water that are only 2 or 3 z-levels deep. Ideally, I'd love to find an ocean that was 10z deep or something. Any ideas?
This thread is exactly what DF should be about.
So, if I understand this correctly,
1. You can drop a hollow ball of obsidian with water+dwarf inside, and the dwarf survives.
...
This thread is exactly what DF should be about.
So, if I understand this correctly,
1. You can drop a hollow ball of obsidian with water+dwarf inside, and the dwarf survives.
...
No. When it hits the bottom, the ceiling of the ball would collapse on his head, killing him. Or maybe not - this depends whether or not the collapsing is affected by the thickness of the walls and the speed of the fall.
I dropped a 5x5x5 cube with a 3x3x3 hole in it with the lowest level filled with water with a dwarf swimming in it. He survived the fall completely unharmed. This proves beyond doubt that dwarves can survive in falling objects.
This thread is exactly what DF should be about.
So, if I understand this correctly,
1. You can drop a hollow ball of obsidian with water+dwarf inside, and the dwarf survives.
...
No. When it hits the bottom, the ceiling of the ball would collapse on his head, killing him. Or maybe not - this depends whether or not the collapsing is affected by the thickness of the walls and the speed of the fall.
? ? ?
But what aboutI dropped a 5x5x5 cube with a 3x3x3 hole in it with the lowest level filled with water with a dwarf swimming in it. He survived the fall completely unharmed. This proves beyond doubt that dwarves can survive in falling objects.
I was under the impression that so long as there was not a 'floor' as the ceiling, but instead a solid block of natural stone, that it would fall as a unit so long as it was connected to another block of natural rock like below that to would remain intact and the dwarf would be subject to just falling damage
######
# D #
######
It wasn't hollow. It was a channeled out hole in the top side of the cube:(
#######
#OOOOO#
#O777O#
#O7D7O#
#O777O#
#OOOOO#
#######
# = space
O = obsidian wall
7 = 7 water
D = dwarf
Constructions don't deconstruct till they hit the bottom? That can't possibly be right, because you could just fill a constructed room with water and dwarves, drop it in magma, and have the outer shell turn to obsidian at the moment of impact.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I'm tempted to try this myself because my latest embark is a huge freshwater lake with a volcano in it.
Could you give me the worldgen info for that (seed et al.)? I was going to dig out my own lake because I couldn't find one, but if you have a world with a lake, it would make things much more simple.
If the submarine is not painted yellow, I will be disappointed.
but /tg/ has already done it.
Constructions don't deconstruct till they hit the bottom? That can't possibly be right, because you could just fill a constructed room with water and dwarves, drop it in magma, and have the outer shell turn to obsidian at the moment of impact.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Also, the dwarves would be incased in obsidian and wouldn't survive...
Next step: I've heard it's possible to alter the arena. If we can make it a huge cube of magma, do so. This will let us drop much larger, more complex diving bells into it, and hopefully let us design one where the dwarves stay on the inside.
If you drop a long hollow rectangular tube with a natural wall floor but no ceiling into water, what happens to the water? Does it displace elsewhere and respect the hollow, or does physics break and the water appears within the tube?
We all live in a gypsum submarine!If the submarine is not painted yellow, I will be disappointed.Gypsum is magma-safe in DF2010.
Good point... I tried it with 4 z-levels of water and a constructed floor, but since the floor dissolved as soon as it collapsed, the water was free to path down. Remember water does NOT fall like objects, but if it can path to a free space, it will all disappear at once. Using a natural stone floor might just do the trick, since it won't let the water all run away.If you drop a long hollow rectangular tube with a natural wall floor but no ceiling into water, what happens to the water? Does it displace elsewhere and respect the hollow, or does physics break and the water appears within the tube?
I'm not sure I saw an answer to this anywhere (talking about a deeeeep pit of water, like 5+z with an equally tall or taller droptube) so I might have to test it myself.
This thread is fantastic, might I add.
Do liquids fall at the same speed? If so... would something like this work?
(http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz201/Pheo112/MagmaDrop.jpg)
A 4x4 obsidian tube with a 2x2 hollow center.
The constructed floors would deconstruct upon drop, and everything falls. The magma forms a ceiling *AFTER* it hits the bottom with 2 walls to grab onto (assuming something doesn't go wrong).
The one problem is the displacement of the liquid you drop this into. Will it appear randomly inside the tube and mess it up?
So how do we deal with the drowning dwarves?Do liquids fall at the same speed? If so... would something like this work?
(http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz201/Pheo112/MagmaDrop.jpg)
A 4x4 obsidian tube with a 2x2 hollow center.
The constructed floors would deconstruct upon drop, and everything falls. The magma forms a ceiling *AFTER* it hits the bottom with 2 walls to grab onto (assuming something doesn't go wrong).
The one problem is the displacement of the liquid you drop this into. Will it appear randomly inside the tube and mess it up?
This actually may give us the easiest way to accomplish the "seal at the bottom of the sea" effect. Considering you've already created a magma pour spigot, you just turn it on again after they hit bottom in their U shaped machine.
It's full of water and we're and we're starting to drown!We all live in a gypsum submarine!If the submarine is not painted yellow, I will be disappointed.Gypsum is magma-safe in DF2010.
So how do we deal with the drowning dwarves?
I find it funny that until now, no one (including myself) stopped to consider the absurdity of a submarine in which the crew cabin is filled with water and the crew is drowning when everything is working properly.So how do we deal with the drowning dwarves?Do liquids fall at the same speed? If so... would something like this work?
(image)
A 4x4 obsidian tube with a 2x2 hollow center.
The constructed floors would deconstruct upon drop, and everything falls. The magma forms a ceiling *AFTER* it hits the bottom with 2 walls to grab onto (assuming something doesn't go wrong).
The one problem is the displacement of the liquid you drop this into. Will it appear randomly inside the tube and mess it up?
This actually may give us the easiest way to accomplish the "seal at the bottom of the sea" effect. Considering you've already created a magma pour spigot, you just turn it on again after they hit bottom in their U shaped machine.It's full of water and we're and we're starting to drown!We all live in a gypsum submarine!If the submarine is not painted yellow, I will be disappointed.Gypsum is magma-safe in DF2010.
Starting to drown!
Starting to drown!
I find it funny that until now, no one (including myself) stopped to consider the absurdity of a submarine in which the crew cabin is filled with water and the crew is drowning when everything is working properly.So how do we deal with the drowning dwarves?Do liquids fall at the same speed? If so... would something like this work?
(image)
A 4x4 obsidian tube with a 2x2 hollow center.
The constructed floors would deconstruct upon drop, and everything falls. The magma forms a ceiling *AFTER* it hits the bottom with 2 walls to grab onto (assuming something doesn't go wrong).
The one problem is the displacement of the liquid you drop this into. Will it appear randomly inside the tube and mess it up?
This actually may give us the easiest way to accomplish the "seal at the bottom of the sea" effect. Considering you've already created a magma pour spigot, you just turn it on again after they hit bottom in their U shaped machine.It's full of water and we're and we're starting to drown!We all live in a gypsum submarine!If the submarine is not painted yellow, I will be disappointed.Gypsum is magma-safe in DF2010.
Starting to drown!
Starting to drown!
Do liquids fall at the same speed? If so... would something like this work?
(http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz201/Pheo112/MagmaDrop.jpg)
A 4x4 obsidian tube with a 2x2 hollow center.
The constructed floors would deconstruct upon drop, and everything falls. The magma forms a ceiling *AFTER* it hits the bottom with 2 walls to grab onto (assuming something doesn't go wrong).
The one problem is the displacement of the liquid you drop this into. Will it appear randomly inside the tube and mess it up?
So how do we deal with the drowning dwarves?Could you use a partial cast floor, that would annihilate some of the water on impact?
Do liquids fall at the same speed? If so... would something like this work?
(http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz201/Pheo112/MagmaDrop.jpg)
A 4x4 obsidian tube with a 2x2 hollow center.
The constructed floors would deconstruct upon drop, and everything falls. The magma forms a ceiling *AFTER* it hits the bottom with 2 walls to grab onto (assuming something doesn't go wrong).
The one problem is the displacement of the liquid you drop this into. Will it appear randomly inside the tube and mess it up?
So, just to make things even more absurd, I was wondering about the "other" natural building material: Ice. Unfortunately, game mechanics don't allow the creation of an icy-baby-subby-bumper on the bottom of your sub, but maybe as a ceiling material, it could, I don't know, cause more disaster.
Not sure what you mean entirely but, unreconstructed cages can't be linked and constructed cages would collapse and kill the dwarf.
Would it kill the dwarf, or just deconstruct the "placed" cage and leave a dwarf in a cage with no way to free him.IIRC, it kills the dwarf and you get a message along the lines of "So-and-so has been killed by a collapsing building!"
I find it funny that until now, no one (including myself) stopped to consider the absurdity of a submarine in which the crew cabin is filled with water and the crew is drowning when everything is working properly.We'll burn that bridge when we come to it.
Edit: my magma/water testing infrastructure is almost done. I've got ten z-levels of magma and water, and I'm building the casting apparatus. Once it's ready I'll try to upload the save so that other people can muck around with it.
The problem is, the floodgates deconstruct as soon as the cavein is triggered.
Can't just create a ceiling? This is kind of similar to the previous posted idea, but you'd do it prior to dropping instead.
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p281/Spiffunk/DF.jpg)
Side view. Red magma, blue water, grey flood gates, black obsidian casting, and yellow is a floor. You'd open the flood gates, they'd flow to where the yellow is filling the hole, they'd form and make obsidian, thus sealing the capsule. Alternatively you could have the water/magma resting on the yellow and just drop the magma/water onto the tile from above.
Only issue is that the floor would deconstruct when dropped, but that wouldn't really matter at that point would it?
And just a disclaimer I'm by no means an expert on what happens to Y when X collapses, how to form obsidian (what ratios are needed), or so forth, but I assume everything can be adjusted before hand to the necessary levels by regulating flow, so I'll leave that to the more informed amongst us on these kinds of things.
####WWW####
###########
MMMMMMMMMMM
MMMMMMMMMMM
MMOOMMMOOMM
MMOOWWWOOMM
MMOOWWWOOMM
MMOOWWWOOMM
MMOOOOOOOMM
MMOOOOOOOMM
RRRRRRRRRRR
This is how I've worked out it goes:
a. In a single frame, all natural (cast obsidian) walls fall as far as they are able.
b. They end up at the bottom of the x-liquid pool, full of x-liquid from the pool. The x-liquid they displace is placed above the surface. The x-liquid they held has not yet fallen.
...
e. At this point, your dwarven testers are instacrushed [presumably by constructions, since they weren't under any real walls) or, if you're lucky, still up in the air just beneath/in the magma/water. They will never be at the bottom of the pool.
...
h. Any of these obsidian walls which fall into the pool travel right to the bottom. They would not form a ceiling.
▓╢X╟▓
▓╢X╟▓
▓╢X╟▓
▓╢X╟▓
_▓╢X╟▓_
▓ ║X║ ▓
▓ I I ▓
[/font]EDIT: Re-reading your post, does it just seem to be random noise that made that gap, or do you think it's something we could calculate and predict?
Hmm... Since falling creatures aren't effected by lava, perhaps you could drop the dwarves first, then, with a bit of timing, construct the submarine around them...
Or you could kinda cheat and make an obsidian tube for them to get into the sub ' something like:Code: [Select]▓╢X╟▓[/font]
▓╢X╟▓
▓╢X╟▓
▓╢X╟▓
_▓╢X╟▓_
▓ ║X║ ▓
▓ I I ▓
The idea is that you'd then somehow remove the obsidian sheath, leaving only the constructed access shaft, which could then be collapsed, leaving the (thick roofed) submarine safely beneath the sea...
this might work with the discovery that the falling natural walls telleport to the bottom. Drop the dwarves from a tower, and then, right before they hit the liquid drop the construction through them. You'd have to use the U shape idea i was in favor of early, but basically you drop the dwarves, and right before they hit the surface, drop the construction, they appear inside the U tube, and then after it's settled seal the top with magma. I think a way to solve the mining issue is to drop a U with a graduated bottom like so:
D is Dwarf, W is water
▓ ▓
▓ ▓
▓WWDWW▓
▓▓WWW▓▓
▓▓▓▓▓▓▓
Also, whoever suggested dropping dwarves on animals...
Replacing water with animals would work in theory, but the animals are also falling (to their death) in many of these plans.
I'm not sure that dead cats will save a dwarf. ::)
Also, whoever suggested dropping dwarves on animals...
Replacing water with animals would work in theory, but the animals are also falling (to their death) in many of these plans.
I'm not sure that dead cats will save a dwarf. ::)
If I recall there was debate a while ago about falling damage based on height - we all know it exists, but one guy had been dropping tons and tons of goblins at a time and had seen quite a few simply walk away perfectly fine and thought it was random, which likely meant some just managed to luckily fall on others before they died. Evidently with dropping a metric elfton of dwarves at once there'll be a good chance that at least a few survive, though it'll be randomized. And the survivor(s) will have to follow their mission parameters while wading through corpses, limbs, guts, and gibs of their comrades. But hey, glass-half-empty/glass-half-full am I right?
Also, whoever suggested dropping dwarves on animals...
Replacing water with animals would work in theory, but the animals are also falling (to their death) in many of these plans.
I'm not sure that dead cats will save a dwarf. ::)
If I recall there was debate a while ago about falling damage based on height - we all know it exists, but one guy had been dropping tons and tons of goblins at a time and had seen quite a few simply walk away perfectly fine and thought it was random, which likely meant some just managed to luckily fall on others before they died. Evidently with dropping a metric elfton of dwarves at once there'll be a good chance that at least a few survive, though it'll be randomized. And the survivor(s) will have to follow their mission parameters while wading through corpses, limbs, guts, and gibs of their comrades. But hey, glass-half-empty/glass-half-full am I right?
So a natural ceiling that is caving-in will teleport past dwarves who are in the way?No, I don't think so. It'll kill them, and their corpses may or may not stay up in the air. Natural walls that cave in seem to sometimes kill dwarves touching them too, for some reason.
As a programmer, my intuition tells me that gap probably resulted from the experiment crossing a boundary between two world tiles.I... can't tell if you're joking or not.
this might work with the discovery that the falling natural walls telleport to the bottom.I'm pretty sure that even though they insta-drop, they still insta-crush anything in the layers in between.
falling damage based on heightThe first problem to overcome is insta-crushing. Right now we can't even drop a bronze colossus a few storeys safely, if we're trying to make a roof.
Also, whoever suggested dropping dwarves on animals...Could you use enemies for this purpose? Either drop undead or wave upon wave of goblins, then drop some legendary military dwarf to clean up the mess and prepare a proper drop-zone for the civilians?
Replacing water with animals would work in theory, but the animals are also falling (to their death) in many of these plans.
I'm not sure that dead cats will save a dwarf. ::)
Wow. I think that is a winner bdog.
It's not anything like dropping a stone container of dwarves... But dropping a hammer to seal off the top is just as dwarfy.
Just an ideaSpoiler (click to show/hide)
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MMM
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=============M, for mine. As close to simultaneously as possible, mind. _____
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becomes
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▓ ▓ <-- Now unsupported!
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The next questions: Adding windows and painting the outside yellow...
The next questions: Adding windows and painting the outside yellow...
I've said it before, I'll say it again: In DF2010, Gypsum is magma proof.
The next questions: Adding windows and painting the outside yellow...
I've said it before, I'll say it again: In DF2010, Gypsum is magma proof.
Sure, but how do you get it down there?
I suppose if there isn't an aquifer, you could use the hammer method and build a large obsidian sub, construct a gypsum sub inside it, complete with windows, then drop the outer walls into trenches you dug beneath them...
Sure, but how do you get it down there?Good idea.
I suppose if there isn't an aquifer, you could use the hammer method and build a large obsidian sub[/obsidian underwater dock], construct a gypsum sub inside it, complete with windows, then drop the outer walls into trenches you dug beneath them...
Build a two layer gypsum sub, with gypsum and glass inside. Drop. Add windows + Replace obsidian with gypsum in inner layer. Remove outer layer somehow (Possibly with the help of sacrificial submarines/dwarves). Fin.Gypsum as magma proof material is not enough as a drop material - theres no way to get BIG (and across multiple levels) natural wall made from it (w/o modding) and non-natural wall would deconstruct when falling.
Plus, with good management aboveground you could re-enable entrance when new migrant wave comes (or order them to drop more blocks to make underwater complex)
That diagonal support on the upper two columns will continue to hold those walls, natural or constructed. Collapsing walls will settle on them.
Build a two layer gypsum sub, with gypsum and glass inside. Drop. Add windows + Replace obsidian with gypsum in inner layer. Remove outer layer somehow (Possibly with the help of sacrificial submarines/dwarves). Fin.Gypsum as magma proof material is not enough as a drop material - theres no way to get BIG (and across multiple levels) natural wall made from it (w/o modding) and non-natural wall would deconstruct when falling.
As of version 27.176.38c, magma does not melt constructed windows, no matter what they are made of, but unconstructed glass windows will melt in magma.Otherwise, you could use walls constructed from glass, or even glass doors, as long as they're never opened.
According to the wiki,???QuoteAs of version 27.176.38c, magma does not melt constructed windows, no matter what they are made of, but unconstructed glass windows will melt in magma.Otherwise, you could use walls constructed from glass, or even glass doors, as long as they're never opened.
Plus, with good management aboveground you could re-enable entrance when new migrant wave comes (or order them to drop more blocks to make underwater complex)A simpler way to regenerate the entrance, and therefore to travel up/down whenever you wanted, would be to make an obsidian-block-generator using a 3*3 bridge, and put the lever to it in your underwater complex.
That diagonal support on the upper two columns will continue to hold those walls, natural or constructed. Collapsing walls will settle on them.
Actually it should be fine as it is. We've demonstrated that collapsing walls will fall as far as they possibly can, hence why ceilings collapse... which is the problem in the first place. Therefore they will go all the way down.
WW%WW
WW%WW
%%~%%
WW%WW
WW%WW
That diagonal support on the upper two columns will continue to hold those walls, natural or constructed. Collapsing walls will settle on them.
Actually it should be fine as it is. We've demonstrated that collapsing walls will fall as far as they possibly can, hence why ceilings collapse... which is the problem in the first place. Therefore they will go all the way down.
Actually MrFake is right as I observed in my testing game after reading that post and before Keldor posted a solution.
I think an airlock for dropping stuff from above would be quite simple to design, but I can't imagine how to actually build it.Code: [Select]WW%WW
WW%WW
%%~%%
WW%WW
WW%WW
All pumps are pumping outward and are powered by god knows what. W is wall.
Re: bridge-based airlock, I'm fairly sure it would destroy it, because e.g. magma will destroy a retracted bridge, or a raised bridge if it lands on the raised part. (But not if it's just adjacent to the raised part).
That diagonal support on the upper two columns will continue to hold those walls, natural or constructed. Collapsing walls will settle on them.
Actually it should be fine as it is. We've demonstrated that collapsing walls will fall as far as they possibly can, hence why ceilings collapse... which is the problem in the first place. Therefore they will go all the way down.
Actually MrFake is right as I observed in my testing game after reading that post and before Keldor posted a solution.
Also, I don't think it's a problem - you don't you need to remove walls/floors to make a cave-in. You should be able to just drop water onto the magma, like you say, or vice versa. Do that several times in succession and you get a pillar of obsidian.
It's probably easiest to just make a 3x3 mold and fill that with lava and water to make a 3x3 section, then drop the whole thing into the water. The constructed walls of the mold would fall apart, leaving you with just the 3x3 square of obsidian. Repeat until you reach the surface.No but if you use a bridge, it's infinitely repeatable. You can hook it up to a lever and control it from your underwater fortress, making a fresh path whenever you want. No construction.
Z=top
OOOOO
OWWWO
OWWWO
OWWWO
OOOOO
Z=-1
OOOOO
OWWWO
OWWWO
OWWWO
OOOOO
Z=-2
OOOOO
OOOOO
OOOOO
OOOOO
OOOOO
Well, all constructions get auto-deconstructed, so that's out. I'm not 100% sure about staircases carved out of natural rock though.
Also, I did more arena testing. It seems like the order of falling is rock, then liquid, then dwarves. Since it's been established that caveins move their liquid up one level, I can't just leave the bottom layer of the "bowl" empty. If I fill it with water, the dwarf gets trapped in cooling lava as it falls. Btw, all this testing is with 4 layers of lava and 4 open levels above, because the arena unfortunately seems to have a set # of z levels even when you edit arena.txt. Thus, I can't really test some of the more complicated methods that suggest sandwhiching rock and water. That may be the key if this is possible.
Also, what is our definition of success here? A completely unattached bubble of rock around one or more creatures surviving after landing at the bottom of an arbitrary level of lava? "Survival" could use better defining, I guess. I don't think indefinite is necessary, but being able to survive to landing conditions until hunger/thirst kick in seems fair. This means no major (hopefully none at all) injuries, and no magma or water in the bubble with them.
This is my project as soon as the merge is released, hopefully today. We'll see how it goes.Yeah, it won't go very far. Hewn staircases, when dropped, disappear if a roof goes through them; when dropped onto, turn into solid rock.
1) Create your sub with the hammer method, so you have a central pillar with living space around it:
~~~~~~~~~~~~
###########
# ##### #
# ##### #
# ##### #
_#__#####__#_
2) Dig into the base of the pillar, and dig two upward staircases, one square apart:
~~~~~~~~~~~~
###########
# ##### #
# ##### #
# ##### #
_#___<_<#__#_
3) Dig both staircase up to the top, but leave the last floor intact.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
___
####>_>####
# #X_X# #
# #X_X# #
# #X_X# #
_#___<_<#__#_
4) Channel out the staircase on one side of the top floor, then build a **constructed** up-stair in its place:
~~~~~~~~~~~~
___
####>_<####
# #X_X# #
# #X_X# #
# #X_X# #
_#___<_<#__#_
5) Build a hatch cover over this up-stair (make sure to build the stair first), and another one on the level below. Link both to levers:
~~~~~~~~~~~~
___
####>_^####
# #X_%# #
# #X_X# #
# #X_X# #
_#___<_<#__#_
^ = hatch and constructed upward stair, % = hatch and carved up/down stair.
6) Wall up the hatched squares, trapping a sacrificial miner (FOR SCIENCE!) on the hatch side of the top level:
~~~~~~~~~~~~
___
####>+^####
# #X+%# #
# #X_X# #
# #X_X# #
_#___<_<#__#_
+ = constructed wall.
7) AFTER MAKING SURE BOTH HATCHES ARE SHUT, order the miner to channel out the floor above him:
~~~~~~~~~~~~
__
####>+^####
# #X+%# #
# #X_X# #
# #X_X# #
_#___<_<#__#_
8) Open the lower hatch, and order the removal of the constructed up-stair. I have tested this and can confirm that it is possible, even though it's being done through a locked hatch!
~~~~~~~~~~~~
__
####>+c####
# #X+%# #
# #X_X# #
# #X_X# #
_#___<_<#__#_
c = hatch over empty space.
Just did some more testing (fortress mode this time), and it looks like carved stairs unfortunately do not survive cave ins. =/ Damn shame, cause that would've made subs pretty easy. I just checked it by carving one stairway, and channeling all surrounding squares (above and below). It also did not appear to produce the usual stone that a cave in does, so I guess that's handled by the bgame tracking what goes into a construction. Sorry to shoot down your theory though, it seemed like a good one. I wonder if carved fortifications survive, and if they'd even be useful. Probably not though.
order the miner to channel out the floor above himWait, how does this work? He's standing on a hatch and has a natural floor above him, he can't ramp it out because it's already mined, and he can't channel it out because he can't get up there.
order the miner to channel out the floor above himWait, how does this work? He's standing on a hatch and has a natural floor above him, he can't ramp it out because it's already mined, and he can't channel it out because he can't get up there.
The deconstruction through a locked hatch is interesting to keep in mind, though.
Designate the channeling on the floor above and he'll just remove the floor (or ceiling, from where he's standing) - channeling doesn't need to leave a ramp if there's open space underneath, and he can reach because of the constructed up staircase.I tested this because I was incredulous and oh hey, they do. Please tell me that's a new version feature because many of my older fortresses could have been saved, or at least run much more efficiently, with a roof channeling trick.
You know, you could probably save the miner too through prompt usage of the airlock as soon as he channels out the roof. If you leave the upper hatch unlocked, he should go through it into the airlock, at which point you quickly lock it again and then pull the lever to open the bottom hatch. At this point, you can attach the upper hatch to it's lever and deconstruct the stairway leaving a fully functional airlock with no cost of dwarven life!Be wary here. I built the original "hammer" design underwater fortress for fun, and then carved out a door attached to a lever so I could irrigate whenever I wanted.
You might have to make the constructed stairway up/down.
But you will be left with a big pipe going up to the surface, yeah? Anyone know how to get rid of that?
Can we dig out a large catching pit below the handle and collapse it into the pit somehow, filling the void and replacing the ceiling perfectly?
But you will be left with a big pipe going up to the surface, yeah? Anyone know how to get rid of that?
I love this thread. I hope someone's put the Hammer Method up on the wiki somewhere.But you will be left with a big pipe going up to the surface, yeah? Anyone know how to get rid of that?
Can we dig out a large catching pit below the handle and collapse it into the pit somehow, filling the void and replacing the ceiling perfectly?
Can we dig out a large catching pit below the handle and collapse it into the pit somehow, filling the void and replacing the ceiling perfectly?
That should actually work, probably. I'll try it out when the next version goes live.
You know, you could probably save the miner too through prompt usage of the airlock as soon as he channels out the roof. If you leave the upper hatch unlocked, he should go through it into the airlock, at which point you quickly lock it again and then pull the lever to open the bottom hatch. At this point, you can attach the upper hatch to it's lever and deconstruct the stairway leaving a fully functional airlock with no cost of dwarven life!
You might have to make the constructed stairway up/down.
The whole point of bdog/Keldor's hammer is that it won't have a big pipe left going to the surface.
It's just a couple of pages back, guys. Not that hard to find.
#_######
#~##~@~#
#~~~~~~#
########
Going back a few pages, to the discussion of the hammer method; I outlined a method for building and then removing an obsidian damn for building a dwarven rapture in this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=31355.msg461691#msg461691) post. Doing this, windows, doorways, golden underwater statue gardens, all are possible.
#~~~
#~~~
#~~~
#~~~
_ #___
#__ I # I = support
### #_#
### ###
### ###
### ###
Going back a few pages, to the discussion of the hammer method; I outlined a method for building and then removing an obsidian dam for building a dwarven rapture in this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=31355.msg461691#msg461691) post. Doing this, windows, doorways, golden underwater statue gardens, all are possible.
If you look closely, every thing inside the walls is pumped dry. You then dig 2 tiles out from the base of the wall, leaving the roof intact (so water still can't get in) and have a support built anywhere underneath.
That said, 2 points;
1) the support isn't technically necessary, it merely allows a chance to remove your casting facilities at the roof of the wall before demolition.
and
2) I didn't spot it at the time, but you'd have to dig the outer sapping trench 2 tiles deep, otherwise the collapsed obsidian would actually support the wall unless it was entirely simultaneous.
e.g.Code: [Select]#~~~
#~~~
#~~~
#~~~
_ #___
#__ I # I = support
### #_#
### ###
### ###
### ###
[...]
I'm still not seeing a way to collapse the walls without water getting to your miners though. To cause a cave in, the walls have to be not touching anything connected to land. Your latest design accounts for that, but I don't see how you can dig this trench without sacrificing a miner to drowning, or at all if the wall is longer than 1 tiles (still the same thickness and height). I still like your idea, I just think there may be some issues to work out.
From above:
~~~~~~~~~
~#######~
~#~~~~~#~
~#~XXX~#~
~#~X X~#~
~#~XXX~#~
~#~~~~~#~
~#######~
~~~~~~~~~
X = dam
# = one-level high 'floor-breaker'
So can I stick adamantine armored and crossbowed dwarves in little pods, drop them from 100 z-levels up, and have them fight off sieges from the outside of my (sealed) tower?
awwesome
Shoot me for only reading 6 pages of this, but...
one could cast obsidian above the ocean, and (presumably, I've never tried) the obsidian would fall. If you make a box 'o the stuff, you could mine it out, and live underwater. (Or, you could use it to keep water out for the construction of a hardcore sub)
Crap. My bad.Shoot me for only reading 6 pages of this, but...
one could cast obsidian above the ocean, and (presumably, I've never tried) the obsidian would fall. If you make a box 'o the stuff, you could mine it out, and live underwater. (Or, you could use it to keep water out for the construction of a hardcore sub)
Yeah, check pages... I think 10 onwards. There's a design for the Hammer, a hammer-shaped (that is, an upside-down T) obsidian cast that you can first drop into the water and then have your dwarves dig in through the 'handle.' Then you can collapse the handle down and have the sub totally independent from the surface.
The Hammer Method is a winner!
Crap. My bad.
do natural ramps support natural ceilings
I doubt the ramps will work, because natural stairs don't work.Solids just fall, as far as they can.
does burning material have the capacity to evaporate water faster than it can flow in under the pressure of the whole ocean?Potentially.
what method did you use? because obviously the hammer isnt going to work for accessing the magma sea...
I've got another idea. If you made a t shaped obsidian block like this: ===||===Nope. Things fall as far as they can. You'll get a two-, and in some parts three-layered obsidian carpet.
||
and you put a launching platform beneath it, not as wide as the "t" part, wouldn't it snag on the platform, with the lower levels beneath the magma?
It worked!Spoiler (click to show/hide)
on the z levels above and below the obsidian are magma.
More can be placed on top of what I have there via obsidian casting. Next time I just have to make the base wider so I actually have room for a fully functional fort.
I feel like everyone is just trying this out now. Congratulations on winning my internets for the week.
maybe its a giant obsidian tower extending to the surface?
Once I get near the bottom I use the uneven magma sea floor for support. As magma flow tiles (the floors created on the z level above semi-molten rock) provide support to tiles next to them.
Then I just channel out the cone down on my way up. Leaving the lowest z level which is now supported from below by SMR rather than by above.
I thought you'd actually managed to drop a dwarf in a bubble, completely sealed off from the surface, as part of the whole thing. :'(
And yeah, I meant sending down a cage in a sub. Does furniture fall at the same rate as constructions or creatures? Creatures will fall too slow and get encased in cooling magma, but if constructions fall fast, they could potentially reach the bubble. However, since everything gets automatically deconstructed, I'd guess that they fall at the same rate as items, and therefore creatures.Yup. It's only solid terrain that falls instantly; everything else including liquids seems to fall the same steady rate; each single tile of solid terrain falls as far as it can. Thus the reluctant conclusion that a genuine dwarven submarine / drop-pod is impossible.
You just re-created "The Core" in Dwarf Fortress. I think Einstein, Freud, and Newton just simultaneously rolled over.Considering the general state of DF, I think Einstein and Newton are already rotating fast enough that you could hook them up to pumps and use them to kill Elves.