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[scourge728]

My joke/argument was because the cockroach the average joe thinks about is a tropical species and also cold blooded

[Reelya]

Native cockroaches are nothing like the invasive urban ones. The ones people mean when they say cockroaches will survive a nuclear blast aren't "bush" roaches as we called them in country Australia, they're the 1-2 species of worldwide urban ones. The German Cockroach and other big city ones will nearly completely die out once humans are gone.

EDIT
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockroach
There are 4600 cockroach species, but only 30 are found around human habitation, and only 4 of them are notable as being pest species, all of which are introduced species. Those species will all mostly die out when humans are gone, they are dependent on our ecosystem.

So cockroaches aren't cockroaches?  I'm not buying.  Bush roaches are cockroaches too!

The quotidian reason for thinking that cockroaches will take over the earth in the case of a catastrophic nuculear incident is their purported immunity to radioactivity, and although that contains a large degree of falsehood (as the wikipedia article you quote evidences) that was not the basis of your argument, which was expressly about their dependency on human urban ecosystems which is patently false.

(Even in the case of urban cockroaches I suspect that they are not 'dependent' on the urban environment but merely thrive under those conditions, hence the 'mostly' in your quoted statement - but this is beside the point...)

Making the argument that cockroaches aren't cockroaches is just hilarious.

My whole point was that the "cockroaches will take over the world" thing is built on two points. The nuclear survival one, but also the ubiquity of cockroaches around human habitation. The entire world population of wild cockroaches which aren't dependent on humans is a very small proportion of the total number of roaches.

The vast majority of cockroaches by numbers are entirely dependent on human civilization (probably something like 9999/10000 of all roaches). Sure, some cockroaches will be left if we die off, but a tiny fraction of the current population numbers, and almost none of those will be the species we normally interact with.

You're just being pedantic and ignoring what I actually meant. For example when people say e.g. "all the cats will die out" they almost certainly mean the domestic housecat species, even though technically, a lot of other things are cats, too. By your argument, everyone would also need to qualify any statement about cats since they could mean pumas or caracals or something, which are types of cats. Similarly, when I said cockroaches will die out once humans die out since they're associated with our urban ecosystems, naturally, I was talking about the common species of cockroaches that are assocated with humans, and as I pointed out, these are the ones people are talking about when they discuss cockroaches, not hypothetically Andean Tree Roaches or some such.

[dragdeler]

Oh I beg to disagree, the common housecat has the best cards to survive the nuclear winter among all cats... For the same reason you cited with cockroaches: not all cats are as coddled as appartement cats and every now and then a litter gets raised guerilla style; outdoor cats, street cats, farm cats - you name 'em. Given that, they are the most widespread among all climatic zones and thus the few remaining cats that don't die locked in have a reasonable chance to find mates. There is a nice arte documentary about the wildlife that is reconquering the area around Chernobyl.

[Reelya]

Yeesh. that is such a non-sequitor.

I didn't make any sort of claim about cats in that regards, I was just using the category "cats" to point out colloquial use of language, that people mean the specific domestic housecat species when saying "cats".

I'm going to stop replying, because it's pointless discussing this further, since you're giving detailed rebuttals to positions I clearly don't even hold.

[feelotraveller]

Native cockroaches are nothing like the invasive urban ones. The ones people mean when they say cockroaches will survive a nuclear blast aren't "bush" roaches as we called them in country Australia, they're the 1-2 species of worldwide urban ones. The German Cockroach and other big city ones will nearly completely die out once humans are gone.

EDIT
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockroach
There are 4600 cockroach species, but only 30 are found around human habitation, and only 4 of them are notable as being pest species, all of which are introduced species. Those species will all mostly die out when humans are gone, they are dependent on our ecosystem.

So cockroaches aren't cockroaches?  I'm not buying.  Bush roaches are cockroaches too!

The quotidian reason for thinking that cockroaches will take over the earth in the case of a catastrophic nuculear incident is their purported immunity to radioactivity, and although that contains a large degree of falsehood (as the wikipedia article you quote evidences) that was not the basis of your argument, which was expressly about their dependency on human urban ecosystems which is patently false.

(Even in the case of urban cockroaches I suspect that they are not 'dependent' on the urban environment but merely thrive under those conditions, hence the 'mostly' in your quoted statement - but this is beside the point...)

Making the argument that cockroaches aren't cockroaches is just hilarious.

My whole point was that the "cockroaches will take over the world" thing is built on two points. The nuclear survival one, but also the ubiquity of cockroaches around human habitation. The entire world population of wild cockroaches which aren't dependent on humans is a very small proportion of the total number of roaches.

The vast majority of cockroaches by numbers are entirely dependent on human civilization (probably something like 9999/10000 of all roaches). Sure, some cockroaches will be left if we die off, but a tiny fraction of the current population numbers, and almost none of those will be the species we normally interact with.

You're just being pedantic and ignoring what I actually meant. For example when people say e.g. "all the cats will die out" they almost certainly mean the domestic housecat species, even though technically, a lot of other things are cats, too. By your argument, everyone would also need to qualify any statement about cats since they could mean pumas or caracals or something, which are types of cats. Similarly, when I said cockroaches will die out once humans die out since they're associated with our urban ecosystems, naturally, I was talking about the common species of cockroaches that are assocated with humans, and as I pointed out, these are the ones people are talking about when they discuss cockroaches, not hypothetically Andean Tree Roaches or some such.

Actually as far as I can tell it is built on an apochryphal report that was adopted by the anti-nuclear movement and made into the meme it is today.  See, for example: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2008/07/will-cockroaches-really-be-the-last-survivors-on-earth.html.  Although the original sighting (if there was such and it is not just an 'urban legend') was likely to be from a pest species of cockroach there is no guarantee it wasn't an early recolonisation from a non-urban species.

Thing is that even the pest species of cockroach are far from dependent on human civilization, yes they profit from it in terms of population density but they are more than capable of surviving without it.  Looking to Wikipedia for three of the four common pest species (the fourth is lacking relevant information there) it is noted that their diets are:

"German cockroaches are omnivorous scavengers. They are attracted particularly to meats, starches, sugars, and fatty foods. Where a shortage of foodstuff exists, they may eat household items such as soap, glue, and toothpaste. In famine conditions, they turn cannibalistic, chewing at each other's wings and legs."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_cockroach

"American cockroaches are omnivorous and opportunistic feeders that eat materials such as cheese, beer, tea, leather, bakery products, starch in book bindings, manuscripts, glue, hair, flakes of dried skin, dead animals, plant materials, soiled clothing, and glossy paper with starch sizing. They are particularly fond of fermenting foods. They have also been observed to feed upon dead or wounded cockroaches of their own or other species."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_cockroach

"[The Australian cockroach] appears to prefer eating plants more than its relatives do, but can feed on a wide array of organic (including decaying) matter. Like most cockroaches, it is a scavenger."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_cockroach

I don't think any of these species will have difficulty surviving without human civilisation.  In fact although their numbers would almost certainly decline longer-term in a post-nuclear scenario in the short term they are likely to explode in numbers due to the abundance of rotting human flesh as a ready food supply.

[Reelya]

meats, starches, sugars, and fatty foods. Where a shortage of foodstuff exists, they may eat household items such as soap, glue, and toothpaste

ok ... none of these things generally exist just sitting around without us there. If they're lucky and there's a piece of meat out in the bush and nothing else is eating it, i guess the cockroaches could get some. but in the wild, they'll be competing with other species, such as ants. The urban type of cockroach build big social nests. They're not going to fare well once their core food supply disappears.

the thing is, once these sorts of high density food stuffs are gone they're going to be competing with more specialized species. Can they out-compete native species in a forest? The question is, do German Cockroaches for example colonize forests or other wilderness now. If not, there's no real reason to think they'll have any more success colonizing those sorts of areas once their main benefactors humans are gone. Like, in current green areas you don't tend to see many urban cockroaches scurrying around in the leaf matter.

In fact although their numbers would almost certainly decline longer-term in a post-nuclear scenario in the short term they are likely to explode in numbers due to the abundance of rotting human flesh as a ready food supply.

Right. This doesn't sound plausible long-term either, since rotting human flesh will be a finite resource. Additionally, a big reason roaches survive is that we actively suppress predators that might eat them. you might instead see a rat explosion, and they eat the rotting human flesh before it's digestible by the roaches. And then eat the roaches.

[feelotraveller]

Meat - any dead animal.
Starch - plant life generally.
Sugar - fruits.

Okay that's way over-generalising it but the short of it is that there will be no shortage of potential foods sources for omnivorous scavengers.  Of course existence for 320 million years (plus) is no guarantee of being able to compete with other species but I'm fairly confident that more than one of the 4600 (roughly) species will manage it.    Quite likely that even one or more of the 30 odd pest species will be amongst them.

[Reelya]

My point was, those ecosystems are already full. if they were able to move into them, they already would have.  What you'd actually see is the country-side critters displacing the urban ones. City roaches aren't going to do too well once cities are just a bunch of concrete with weeds growing up.

[wierd]

meats, starches, sugars, and fatty foods. Where a shortage of foodstuff exists, they may eat household items such as soap, glue, and toothpaste

ok ... none of these things generally exist just sitting around without us there. If they're lucky and there's a piece of meat out in the bush and nothing else is eating it, i guess the cockroaches could get some. but in the wild, they'll be competing with other species, such as ants. The urban type of cockroach build big social nests. They're not going to fare well once their core food supply disappears.

the thing is, once these sorts of high density food stuffs are gone they're going to be competing with more specialized species. Can they out-compete native species in a forest? The question is, do German Cockroaches for example colonize forests or other wilderness now. If not, there's no real reason to think they'll have any more success colonizing those sorts of areas once their main benefactors humans are gone. Like, in current green areas you don't tend to see many urban cockroaches scurrying around in the leaf matter.

In fact although their numbers would almost certainly decline longer-term in a post-nuclear scenario in the short term they are likely to explode in numbers due to the abundance of rotting human flesh as a ready food supply.

Right. This doesn't sound plausible long-term either, since rotting human flesh will be a finite resource. Additionally, a big reason roaches survive is that we actively suppress predators that might eat them. you might instead see a rat explosion, and they eat the rotting human flesh before it's digestible by the roaches. And then eat the roaches.

According to a quick one liner from Orkin, German roaches can live outside in tropical climates.  Assuming AGW, their habitat may actually increase.

There's also this fluff piece in SciAm (From somebody who is not an entomologist) that states that they are originally native to southeast asia, and are adapted genetically to warm, humid environs.

Assuming we dont get nuclear winter (which would kill them with cold, not radiation), and instead AGW is the smoking gun on humanity, the roaches could well take over.

[bloop_bleep]

There's also this fluff piece in SciAm (From somebody who is not an entomologist)

I forget, is it SciAm or AmSci that's the bad one? I remember seeing a several-page informational treatise on lecterns (of course including space dedicated entirely to reaffirming that lecterns are, get this, in fact not podiums) in one of them.

[MorleyDev]

Okay, does anybody else want a gritty post-apocalyptic survival story about a family of Cockroaches trying to survive after humanity wiped itself out in nuclear winter?

Anybody? No? Just me then...

[Il Palazzo]

Only if the protagonist is Gregor Samsa.

[dragdeler]

:

shrug

The end.

[Bumber]

Additionally, a big reason roaches survive is that we actively suppress predators that might eat them. you might instead see a rat explosion, and they eat the rotting human flesh before it's digestible by the roaches. And then eat the roaches.

Assuming the rats, etc., can handle the fallout as well as the roaches and don't end up sterile or malformed. The roaches' benefit is that they're simpler organisms.

[Reelya]

I'm trying to see if any roaches are hangin' around Chernobyl (googled Chernobyl Cockroaches and other searches), but there's no references to them, only other insect types. There's an artist who collects and paints images of insects from Chernobyl etc, I looked at a bunch of her work (along with videos of people examining insects and wildlife in Chernobyl), didn't see any cockroaches among them. If roaches really are going to be the survivors, they should be all over the Chernobyl exclusion zone.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/chernobyls-bugs-art-and-science-life-after-nuclear-fallout-180951231/

https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/would-cockroaches-really-survive-a-nuclear-apocalypse

But School of Population and Global Health Professor Tilman Ruff, a Nobel Laureate who studies the health and environmental consequences of nuclear explosions, says he has yet to see any documented evidence that there were cockroaches scuttling through the rubble.

“I’ve certainly seen photographs of injured people in Hiroshima that have lots of flies around, and you do imagine some insects would have survived,” Professor Ruff says. “But they still would have been affected, even if they appear more resistant than humans.”

“For a while they’ll be able to eat dead bodies and other decaying material but, if everything else has died, eventually there won’t be any food. And they’re not going to make much of a living,” Professor Elgar says.

Roaches big issue is that they're scavengers, not hunters or grazers. They can only exist as long as the supply of discarded food keeps up. So if the rats don't make it, well then the rat droppings were probably what the roaches were eating, so the roaches go too, then.

So far I haven't seen any evidence that cockroaches fare very well once humans are gone from an area.