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Other Projects => Other Games => Topic started by: ScriptWolf on January 24, 2011, 01:36:17 pm

Title: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: ScriptWolf on January 24, 2011, 01:36:17 pm
Salem. Salem is paradoxes new MMORPG planned for 2011.

its based around H.P.Lovecraft and a few other things. and is about you colonizing the new world. you can create your own business house or start a farm as well as other things. Also when you die your dead for good ( which im not to sure about but it might work) and you can also get involved with witch craft which sounds cool. Aswell as maiming other players :D.

EDIT: also i think its being created by the guys who made us Haven and hearth

not much on it but sounds good.

Few newsy things about it:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/01/24/the-paradox-convention-preview-blowout/

http://kotaku.com/5739362/there-is-real-death-in-this-video-game

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/32585/Paradox_Announces_Salem_FreeToPlay_MMORPG_With_Permadeath.php
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Farseer on January 24, 2011, 01:42:38 pm
Huh, I remember H&H. I hope this has SOME sort of skill cap. H&H was ruined because it didn't have it.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Tilla on January 24, 2011, 01:48:14 pm
I don't have a lot of faith in this game and here's why
Permadeath in an MMO RPG

From the makers of Haven and Hearth

I predict nothing but constant gank.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Virtz on January 24, 2011, 02:16:30 pm
I think perma death could be done in an MMORPG. Just not so sure about perma death in a low-tech, low-magic setting and with much grinding. Somehow I expect the combat to allow you to easily run away.

But I dunno, I'm still curious about this. Not so sure about the cutesy graphics (http://www.havenandhearth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14667&sid=89455c5416f137569c828dd0b1f2ca58) this is supposed to have, though.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: ScriptWolf on January 24, 2011, 02:20:42 pm
yes but also players will moderate their own towns and stop griefers from killing lower levels. 
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Tilla on January 24, 2011, 02:23:59 pm
I don't for one second believe the community moderating itself will work out. This all depends on some imaginary scenario where people work together for the greater good which I've never really seen happen.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: ScriptWolf on January 24, 2011, 02:25:51 pm
yeah but in the end you will just see lynch mods of people sick of other people killing people all the time. also i think the community could manage its self, they do it in haven and hearth :p
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Tilla on January 24, 2011, 02:41:10 pm
yeah but in the end you will just see lynch mods of people sick of other people killing people all the time. also i think the community could manage its self, they do it in haven and hearth :p

HnH is a relatively small community though, this is backed by a publisher and all that and already getting more press than HnH ever has. Combine that with Free to Play and Permadeath and it will be a bad mix.

That said I'll still look at it. I'm not a big fan of PvP in /any/ scenarios where I don't have much control of when or where it happens though. Not a fun game, just a chore in my mind. Why is it that every game with intricate crafting (except for ATITD which has no combat system at all) is tied to openPvP? Very odd.

Also yah, those graphics are fucking horrendous, they would be far better off sticking with 2D if that is the best they can do for character art. And the land looks completely flat, ugh.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: SquidgyB on January 24, 2011, 02:41:26 pm
I don't for one second believe the community moderating itself will work out. This all depends on some imaginary scenario where people work together for the greater good which I've never really seen happen.

You should try playing die2nite.

It's not the way it always goes, but it's damn satisfying when you do have a good town (like the Wooden Theatre of on High :))

Provided the mechanics are there to deal with griefers, I don't see why this can't happen.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Tilla on January 24, 2011, 02:43:23 pm
I played Die2Nite extensively. Every other town got griefed.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: SquidgyB on January 24, 2011, 02:50:22 pm
I'm just saying that co-operation within an online gaming community is not quite as rare as your previous post suggested.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Fikes on January 24, 2011, 03:07:20 pm
Die2nite is a bad example about how permadeath could work. When you die in die2nite you have maybe 2 hours played time invested and you expect to die anyways. I had probably 20 or 30 into my HnH character before I gave up on him.

The whole "community polices itself thing" is silly too. It takes much less time to build up a character for the purpose of griefing than it does to develop a character for the purpose of surviving. If you have a group that just trains up griefiers they probably do it efficiently enough that they don't really notice when you take one of them out.

What is needed is some sort of mechanic to let the community rebuild what ever was lost. For example, in HnH if your town gets raided there could be a mechanic to "rebuild everything" where you just pile up the ingredients and invest a bunch of time and everything comes back. Maybe in a game like this it could be a group of 5 bringing you back to life.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Soulwynd on January 24, 2011, 03:07:39 pm
If we get to perma-kill christians, I'm in.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: inteuniso on January 24, 2011, 03:20:49 pm
I'm christian and I am offended by that. BANHAMMER! :D jk

I'm actually looking forward to this. Might lead to a bit of Mafia style gameplay with Witchhunts.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Fikes on January 24, 2011, 03:21:13 pm
If we get to perma-kill christians, I'm in.

"There is only two types of people I can't stand. Those intolerant of other cultures and the Dutch."

What makes you think it is okay to say or think stuff like this?
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: PenguinOverlord on January 24, 2011, 03:23:19 pm
So, the guys who develop Haven and Hearth is working on a more professional MMO called Salem. (http://www.havenandhearth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14667&sid=78a30cb9724f878b3438e982f88bb8df) It looks promising, at any rate.
edit: Found some actual info about it here. (http://www.mmocrunch.com/2011/01/23/paradox-interactive-2011-new-york-convention/)
Anyway, I don't like what they intend to do with the scent system. I do not want to be killed while I'm offline.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: ductape on January 24, 2011, 03:33:17 pm
If we get to perma-kill christians, I'm in.

"There is only two types of people I can't stand. Those intolerant of other cultures and the Dutch."

What makes you think it is okay to say or think stuff like this?

Of course Soulwynd was joking, but I will give you a good reason why that is OK to say in this thread. Mainly because Salem and the witch hunts that happened there were about puritanical Christians persecuting (read: slaughtering) pagans for their beliefs. I imagine the entire game will have a predominant theme of Christians versus pagans/witches with some Cthulhu mythos thrown in for good measure. THAT is why it is OK to say that in this thread.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Rilder on January 24, 2011, 03:37:44 pm
Predominant theme of christians Vs Pagans? *Loads Musket* Lets hunt some christians!
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: mithra on January 24, 2011, 03:42:41 pm
Here's my take:  it will fail, and hard.

Now that isn't really going out on a limb considering that most MMOs fail, but I can't see a thing in this one that is going to generate enough of a fan base to sustain it.  The "Free to Play" model means no monthly subscription, and probably no cost to acquire the game, but there will have to be some sort of revenue generation.  To me, that means a cash shop.  That could be okay if it doesn't include actual in-game benefits to PvP, which is at the heart of this MMO.  But I think it will have to include such benefits.  I just don't see the type of player attracted to a PvP permadeath MMO being that interested in a pretty hat, or some other cosmetic purchase.  Not enough revenue means shut down for a commercial game.

Edited to add: To finish the other part of my point, if the cash shop does include PvP enhancements, then those with the most cash will dominate, and it won't be worth playing.

In the meantime, H&H will continue along its own flawed path, but now with less dev time applied to it.  Oh, well.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Farseer on January 24, 2011, 03:45:12 pm
I think H&H is failing due to them listening to the utter morons on the forums.

"You guys know what'd be a bad idea? A skill cap, because then I couldn't macro / bug my way to full skills or have any meaningful interaction with others in my clan. LOLOLOL."

H&H was in trouble when they made the game far too dependent on high skills. If they'd reduced that to a certain degree, it might have worked out well.

I'm still probably going to end up playing this, though.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: mithra on January 24, 2011, 03:46:08 pm
So, the guys who develop Haven and Hearth is working on a more professional MMO called Salem. (http://www.havenandhearth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14667&sid=78a30cb9724f878b3438e982f88bb8df) It looks promising, at any rate.
edit: Found some actual info about it here. (http://www.mmocrunch.com/2011/01/23/paradox-interactive-2011-new-york-convention/)
Anyway, I don't like what they intend to do with the scent system. I do not want to be killed while I'm offline.

This is the same system used in H&H.  Actually, except for the graphics, Salem is H&H.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Farseer on January 24, 2011, 03:48:38 pm
Found some actual info about it here. (http://www.mmocrunch.com/2011/01/23/paradox-interactive-2011-new-york-convention/)

Holy crap, is that what they look like? Hahahah.

Reading now.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Rilder on January 24, 2011, 04:00:38 pm
On a side note is it just me or is Paradox really starting to get successful as of late? They seem to be putting a lot more out and getting involved in a lot more stuff then they used to.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Soulwynd on January 24, 2011, 04:05:36 pm
If we get to perma-kill christians, I'm in.
What makes you think it is okay to say or think stuff like this?
What makes you think it is okay for you to question what I say or think?

Like others pointed out, it's a game in Salem. I take the witch/pagan side.

Holy crap, is that what they look like? Hahahah.
The fuck?

(http://i52.tinypic.com/9qyzkj.jpg)

It's like... Pokemon for the DS graphics.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Farseer on January 24, 2011, 04:08:53 pm
Holy crap, is that what they look like? Hahahah.
The fuck?

I don't mean that, I mean that picture of them. I never saw them before, but that is CERTAINLY not what I imagined them to look like. I was thinking more beards or something, not a pair of people who look like serious drug addicts / Sith.

Also, made a post on the Paradox forums about the issues I saw with H&H: Click here. (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?517273-Issues-with-H-amp-H&p=12020949#post12020949) Try and remember I played about a year back, so it might be completely changed, now.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Astral on January 24, 2011, 04:13:23 pm
Looks too cutesy for a game that's about pagan worship and murdering people.

Pass.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Tilla on January 24, 2011, 04:26:20 pm
The terrain is by far the worst part. It looks like for all intents and purposes they took the 2D flat-ish terrain of H&H and just slapped 3D trees and characters on top. Eww.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: kulik on January 24, 2011, 04:42:40 pm
Oh boy, i always wanted a dark themed MMO with permadeath. What would be the point of burning a pagan if he would just respawn.  :D
As i see it its perfectly possible to have permadeath MMO if:
1.Difference between low and highlevel characters isn't too dramatic. Imagine dwarf fortress where max skill is competent or accomplished. You obviously have the upper hand over dabbing character but if he has better equipped, has friends or more luck... The dabbing character won't be seen as somebody you just walk over when you decide, he has to be able to influence things around him from the start.   
It has to bee balanced to a point you don't want to loose your character (to benefit from the permadeath mechanic influencing your actions) but if you do, you won 't quit cause of it.
2. It can't be grind based. If players see leveling as work, they don't want to see someone to destroying their work, they may get upset and quit.
I would do it like this: When you're online, you go on quest (preferably not scripted), socializing, explore... AND you make a list of task you character has to make when you go offline like train with weapon, craft this, build that, cut that tree... (or you would do it online by couple of clicks without any waiting and then you would go offline for timeperiod needed for your character to do this things)
While offline your character would be still in game, could be attacked but not killed, only knocked out. He would remain off all his possessions in his inventory but his properties like house could be destroyed and robbed, the character would of course deffend theirs property's. This would force the players to make villages together so the characters even if the players are offline would be a solid deffence to unorganized griefers which of course could be permanently killed, thus thinking twice to go against bunch of AI controlled character which have nothing to loose.

edit. I can imagine having dark themed mmo with childish grapics, it may get a strange disturbing feel to it like one in American Mcgee's alice. As i remember Notch (he worked some time on wurm if you didn't know) once said something like: "If you go for photorealistic graphics you need to devote lots of resources to it which can be spend elsewhere" ...i approve.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Farseer on January 24, 2011, 04:53:47 pm
Oh boy, i always wanted a dark themed MMO with permadeath. What would be the point of burning a pagan if he would just respawn.  :D
As i see it its perfectly possible to have permadeath MMO if:
1.Difference between low and highlevel characters isn't too dramatic. Imagine dwarf fortress where max skill is competent or accomplished. You obviously have the upper hand over dabbing character but if he has better equipped, has friends or more luck... The dabbing character won't be seen as somebody you just walk over when you decide, he has to be able to influence things around him from the start.   
It has to bee balanced to a point you don't want to loose your character (to benefit from the permadeath mechanic influencing your actions) but if you do, you won 't quit cause of it.
2. It can't be grind based. If players see leveling as work, they don't want to see someone to destroying their work, they may get upset and quit.
I would do it like this: When you online, you go on quest (preferably not scripted), socializing, explore... AND you make a list of task you character has to make when you go offline like train with weapon, craft this, build that, cut that tree... (or you would do it online by couple of clicks without any waiting and then you would go offline for timeperiod needed for your character to do this things)
While offline you character would be still in game, could be attacked but not killed, only knocked out. He would remain all his possessions in his inventory but his properties like house could be destroyed and robbed, the character would of course deffend theirs property's. This would force the players to make villages together so the characters even if the players are offline would be a solid deffence to unorganized griefers which of course could be permanently killed, thus thinking twice to go against bunch of AI controlled character which have nothing to loose.

I'll just quote my "Issues with H&H" thread:-
Quote
1. Massive grind. The primary trouble with H&H was that it was a massive grindfest with permadeath and open PvP enabled. This was due to the lack of skill or ability caps, which meant progression was infinite. This caused a bunch of other problems that I may talk about later.

The massive grind WAS useful for discouraging players from fighting from one another (what's the point when the risks are so massive?), but it also meant that both griefing and using alt accounts to attack your enemy were far too good as tactics. Just create a few noob characters, grind upto the murdering skills and go and slaughter enemies with your disposable characters.

2. No skill caps. This discouraged both grouping with other players and specialisation. What's the point in being specialised when you can get to a level in one skill and use your ability points in that skill in all others?

3. No diminishing returns from abilities / skills. This meant a massive divide between new players and oldbies, which is never a good thing in open PvP scenarios. Was resolved slightly with resets over maps, but that didn't really sort the problem out.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Rakonas on January 25, 2011, 03:44:07 pm
This could work with one simple switch from HnH. Make it so leveling to grief is very difficult, while leveling to be legitimate is rather easy.
Also, pretty sure the graphics explain why it's free to play.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: PenguinOverlord on January 25, 2011, 04:08:56 pm
If we get to perma-kill christians, I'm in.
What makes you think it is okay to say or think stuff like this?
What makes you think it is okay for you to question what I say or think?

Like others pointed out, it's a game in Salem. I take the witch/pagan side.

Holy crap, is that what they look like? Hahahah.
The fuck?

(http://i52.tinypic.com/9qyzkj.jpg)

It's like... Pokemon for the DS graphics.
They said that they are alpha graphics and they will be replaced, but the game is intended to be cartoony.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: ScriptWolf on January 25, 2011, 04:22:33 pm
Still looks like something a 2 yearold could draw
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Farseer on January 25, 2011, 04:23:25 pm
Still looks like something a 2 yearold could draw

Isn't that all manga?  :P
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Vel on January 25, 2011, 04:57:08 pm
Salem wasn't about Christians burning Pagans for their beliefs.

It was about Christians burning other Christians either out of insane paranoid fervor or greed (guess what happened to the stuff the 'witches' owned after they died)


Also, this will fail utterly, because permadeath does not work. Why? Because community moderation doesn't happen. Most people only look out for number 1, and they only look out for number 1 insofar as their immediate situation dictates. They aren't going to go off hunting down the throwaway accounts of a group of 12 year olds who just re-make their ganking characters every time they happen to die, since a new player can't stand up to a bunch of other new players either.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Soulwynd on January 25, 2011, 06:51:21 pm
Don't be silly, permadeath works just fine. You just have a lot more tension when playing it.

I used to play a certain MMO in beta with permadeath turned on only. It was incredible. Your life depended on other players and since you could only group with permadeath on people (when you had it on, of course), the tension in dungeons was incredible and heart pounding, since you could lose days of work in a snap.

It was great.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Frumple on January 25, 2011, 07:03:07 pm
Apply PvP to Permadeath greatness. Add griefers. Stir. No more greatness :-\

That said, the easiest way to see how PvP permadeath plays out would probably be to check out MUDs and suchlike. I don't really pay attention to the things anymore, but they've gotta' still have a few of the bloody buggers running around.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: mithra on January 25, 2011, 07:11:09 pm
Don't be silly, permadeath works just fine. You just have a lot more tension when playing it.

I used to play a certain MMO in beta with permadeath turned on only. It was incredible. Your life depended on other players and since you could only group with permadeath on people (when you had it on, of course), the tension in dungeons was incredible and heart pounding, since you could lose days of work in a snap.

It was great.

You had the choice to play with permadeath or not.  There is no choice in Salem/H&H.  There's a reason why no major MMO has automatic permadeath: it doesn't work.  I also note you said "lose days of work in a snap".  A MMO won't succeed if people only play for days instead of months or years, and people will not be happy if they stand to lose months or years of work.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Dakk on January 25, 2011, 07:50:33 pm
The massive skill grind in order to do anything meaningful in H&H is what killed it for me. For a game that once focused on letting player interaction be the driving engine of the game, it fell flat on its face when you had to grind nonstop for a full week in order to hunt anything bigger then a bunch of insects. Grinding means more time doing boring repetitive tasks and less player interaction.

What I loved about H&H was the outdoors factor. You had to travel real far to get anywhere and you had to keep yourself fed and safe from animals and etc, it felt immersive and fun. When I finally got to a village and settled in, now it was all about doing the same thing over and over to get higher levels of skills so you can do other repetitive tasks better.

I'm not saying that one can make a online game using a vaguely RPGesque system without some grinding, but you need to at the very least reward people for all that time they spent training their skills, actual rewards, not just bigger numbers. Hellmoo does it with mutations and other things, WoW uses other areas, flying mounts, etc. H&H basicaly just tells you "congratz! Now you can do that very same thing, just slightly better, a winrar is you!"

Also, those are some terrible graphic choices there. So yea, sad to say but if it borrows on H&H's style, I hope its only the positive ones, I don't really feel like grinding for nothing again.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: GlyphGryph on January 25, 2011, 11:50:26 pm
Permadeath works, but the formula is different than for traditional MMOs.

The MMOs I played the longest and enjoyed the most ALL had permadeath.

I've even seen multiple ways for it to succeed!

Option 1: Make leveling and skill gain fairly easy, with death as an expected, natural, and core component of the gameplay. Good for "easy fun" oriented games, and can cut down on griefers if implemented correctly. If you're encouraging an environment of exploration and risk taking, where perma-death means your character is killed, but you enjoyed the process leading up to it, then you wont mind so much creating another one. Competitive play in games of this sort can turn into "marathons" where players compete over who can stay at the top of their game the longest, rather than who can get there the quickest or become the very best, very different from most MMOs. Can also be effective in games where building and creating your character is half the game. (and then, essentially, testing to see if you did it right)

Option 2: Unlock better abilities and newer options by having made notable accomplishments in "past lives". Players who have created characters with long and notable histories, tend to be more responsible and better for the community, and giving them additional powers is good since they are more likely to use them responsibly. Griefers tend to have short lives, and thus would become less effective. At the very least, griefers will want to see the additional content and will at least spend some of their time being "productive" citizens.

Option 3: Make killing hard. This works a lot easier in games where "killing things" is not the most common route to advancement, as "killing things" games tend to be based around killing things being easy. However, if lethal weapons like swords are treasured and hard to come by, but beating people with your fists is fairly easy but only knocks the other player out for 30 seconds, it tends to create a situation where most players who would enjoy pvp are first introduced to and then generally graduate towards preferring the non-lethal approach. Even when they gain the ability to kill others, they are much more discrete about using it, since if they themselves are killed in return they will no longer have said ability. Obviously, there a whole lot of ways you can do this (some very creative!)

Option 4: Have "safe areas", which makes the perma-death aspects more of a choice than a constant overhanging threat. Of course, this has to be balanced by giving a REASON to venture into danger...

Option 5: Allow permadeath, but don't allow pvp and give no benefits to killing other players.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: kulik on January 26, 2011, 02:51:34 am
Option 6: Doing bad deeds would lower you karma to a point you becoming a outlaw (Preferably only being convicted after leaving witnesses or if somebody would track down your scent.). Like pirates in eve. I like this a lot, cause it makes griefing possible but you have to pay a price. The outlaw tag would wear out not with death of your character but over time, so even if you're get killed you would respawn new character as an outlaw. 
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Neyvn on January 26, 2011, 03:32:09 am
I would like to see things like ONE account/character while you play.
HnH as a group is kinda redundant when the one who decided to go Miner/Smith and thus spend most of his time doing the mining, and getting ALL the metal. Then going and creating a Farming/Cooking Alt which can supply him on the other side of the coin when as a Miner he can't do that. Kinda makes it hard for the people who don't mine to get metal that way when you can't trade with the miner cause, He can do it himself...
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Farseer on January 26, 2011, 04:00:48 am
I would like to see things like ONE account/character while you play.
HnH as a group is kinda redundant when the one who decided to go Miner/Smith and thus spend most of his time doing the mining, and getting ALL the metal. Then going and creating a Farming/Cooking Alt which can supply him on the other side of the coin when as a Miner he can't do that. Kinda makes it hard for the people who don't mine to get metal that way when you can't trade with the miner cause, He can do it himself...

He didn't have to even create an alt in that case. All he had to do was use the massive skillgains he got off high level smithing to level farming / cooking.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Cajoes on January 26, 2011, 04:04:23 am
"And they shall be as a wolf among men."

This is not a compliment, fyi.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Neyvn on January 26, 2011, 05:38:00 am
I would like to see things like ONE account/character while you play.
HnH as a group is kinda redundant when the one who decided to go Miner/Smith and thus spend most of his time doing the mining, and getting ALL the metal. Then going and creating a Farming/Cooking Alt which can supply him on the other side of the coin when as a Miner he can't do that. Kinda makes it hard for the people who don't mine to get metal that way when you can't trade with the miner cause, He can do it himself...

He didn't have to even create an alt in that case. All he had to do was use the massive skillgains he got off high level smithing to level farming / cooking.
Haven and Hearth has a Belief system, to be an effective Miner you need to have your Belief all the way towards Industry (which gives a better chance of the Ore not becoming Slag (stone)). While he can do this, his Farming ability becomes useless as he will always recover one 'seed' from a harvest action. In response, if you have your belief all the way towards Nature (the opposite of Industry) you will recover 3 'seeds' from a harvest action, but the chances of getting Ore into normal metal is slim to none. Having it in the middle will give a <50% chance of Ore to Metal, and always give only 2 'seeds' per harvest...
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Farseer on January 26, 2011, 05:48:48 am
He didn't have to even create an alt in that case. All he had to do was use the massive skillgains he got off high level smithing to level farming / cooking.
Haven and Hearth has a Belief system, to be an effective Miner you need to have your Belief all the way towards Industry (which gives a better chance of the Ore not becoming Slag (stone)). While he can do this, his Farming ability becomes useless as he will always recover one 'seed' from a harvest action. In response, if you have your belief all the way towards Nature (the opposite of Industry) you will recover 3 'seeds' from a harvest action, but the chances of getting Ore into normal metal is slim to none. Having it in the middle will give a <50% chance of Ore to Metal, and always give only 2 'seeds' per harvest...[/quote]

I suppose. It's still pretty easy to do it without having belief sliders set any way, though. The only thing that could have any trouble with that was the silk moths.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Neyvn on January 26, 2011, 06:46:01 am
He didn't have to even create an alt in that case. All he had to do was use the massive skillgains he got off high level smithing to level farming / cooking.
Haven and Hearth has a Belief system, to be an effective Miner you need to have your Belief all the way towards Industry (which gives a better chance of the Ore not becoming Slag (stone)). While he can do this, his Farming ability becomes useless as he will always recover one 'seed' from a harvest action. In response, if you have your belief all the way towards Nature (the opposite of Industry) you will recover 3 'seeds' from a harvest action, but the chances of getting Ore into normal metal is slim to none. Having it in the middle will give a <50% chance of Ore to Metal, and always give only 2 'seeds' per harvest...

I suppose. It's still pretty easy to do it without having belief sliders set any way, though. The only thing that could have any trouble with that was the silk moths.
It is quite hard, the difference of having 80% of your Ore going to metal to 45% at mid range is bigger then you think... Go onto the HnH forums and ask that question, $1000000000000000000 USD says that 99.9999% of the responses would be, "Just make a Farming alt..."

Too many people fall into that system of, Oh I can't do this by myself with this character, lets start up another, on a new account, and do it that way. Who cares if fellow villager 1,2,3,4,5 can do it better then me, THIS IS MY ORE!!! THEY AIN'T GETTING ANY OF IT!!! THEY WANT METAL, THEY SHOULD GO MAKE A MINING ALT AND FIND THEIR OWN MINE!!!!...

Yes this has happened to me in HnH, thrice...
Azk is doing it right now to a point, he just hasn't gotten around to making the Farming Alt yet. But in time...
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Keita on January 26, 2011, 06:47:16 am
A game based on H.P.Lovecraft's world?

I'm so pumped for this game =D
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Farseer on January 26, 2011, 06:48:11 am
It is quite hard, the difference of having 80% of your Ore going to metal to 45% at mid range is bigger then you think... Go onto the HnH forums and ask that question, $1000000000000000000 USD says that 99.9999% of the responses would be, "Just make a Farming alt..."

Too many people fall into that system of, Oh I can't do this by myself with this character, lets start up another, on a new account, and do it that way. Who cares if fellow villager 1,2,3,4,5 can do it better then me, THIS IS MY ORE!!! THEY AIN'T GETTING ANY OF IT!!! THEY WANT METAL, THEY SHOULD GO MAKE A MINING ALT AND FIND THEIR OWN MINE!!!!...

Yes this has happened to me in HnH, thrice...
Azk is doing it right now to a point, he just hasn't gotten around to making the Farming Alt yet. But in time...

The trouble is that, due to the free to play model, there's no way to stop this from happening. =/
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Vel on January 26, 2011, 07:47:58 am
Personally, I think the person mentioned giving benefits for having things happening in 'past lives' might be on to something vaguely interesting. But I still think it would ultimately boil down to a handful of people who take the game seriously versus a vast army of 12 year olds with nigh unlimited griefing accounts. Permadeath attracts the small community of hardcore, thrillseeking players who crave excitement that can only come from real risk. It also attracts the /enormous/ community of mouthbreathing idiots who's only pleasure in their miserable, inconsequential lives is seeing how much they can annoy other people.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Rift on January 26, 2011, 07:58:57 am
You think slaughtering mass droves of bitching 12 year olds that are annoying you is unfun?

I think your underestimating how a 12 year old would react to dieing.. i bet more then 1/2 would throw temper tamtrums and never play the game again.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Vel on January 26, 2011, 08:24:47 am
Pretty generally they have no investment in their character and thus do not care in the slightest if they die.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Rilder on January 26, 2011, 08:31:54 am
I kinda hope its not that easy for us to get killed, I tend to get way to attached to shit in games even though I shouldn't >.>
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Farseer on January 26, 2011, 08:34:13 am
Personally, I think the person mentioned giving benefits for having things happening in 'past lives' might be on to something vaguely interesting. But I still think it would ultimately boil down to a handful of people who take the game seriously versus a vast army of 12 year olds with nigh unlimited griefing accounts. Permadeath attracts the small community of hardcore, thrillseeking players who crave excitement that can only come from real risk. It also attracts the /enormous/ community of mouthbreathing idiots who's only pleasure in their miserable, inconsequential lives is seeing how much they can annoy other people.

This happened in H&H and the worst part is that Jorb and Loftar LISTENED to the idiots.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Rift on January 26, 2011, 11:36:06 am
Quote
Pretty generally they have no investment in their character and thus do not care in the slightest if they die.

The way they balanced it before, and how it worked, was by making it require investment to be annoying, and the more annoying things required more investment. Thus in order to truely annoy someone, you had to invest time and effort into your character.
And while i have no idea if its working that well at the moment in haven and hearth...
I certainly saw it work first hand on a small scale in haven and hearth in previous worlds.

Now while i'm not argueing that small scale is the same as large scale, however i meerly want to say that theirs no reasons to assume that its going to fail, provided its engineered well. And given Jorb & Loftar pretty much approached H&H as one big social experiment to find things like this out, i would suspect they have a better shot at achieving this then anyone before them.

I might guess that it will still have lots of problems and griefing if it gets popular, however i must strongly state that there is still a freaken chance it will work out, and that some ideas are worth a bit of risk.


//I may be a bit fustrated at some of the negativism in this thread, while no doubt a lot of it is based on fustration at mmo's going horrible wrong, we gotta keep a little hope alive folks and admit that theres a chance things might work out, and sometimes thats enough reason to support something.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on January 26, 2011, 11:55:49 am
FYI, permadeath and player-enforced law and order work nearly perfectly in H&H. What you guys seem to have trouble with is the fact that stronger people can bully you if you refuse to find friends to back you up. Frankly, I don't see a problem with discouraging people to play a MMO as if it was a single player game.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Dakk on January 26, 2011, 12:06:56 pm
Aye, that aspect of H&H actualy worked, but the game was a bit too barebones when it came to player interaction. Eventualy players started warring eachother just because they were bored of everything, not because there was some sort of reward in doing it. When you settle in a village in H&H, all the awesome survival experience gets replaced by a series of boring tasks, and you end up picking yourself one of the two rules in the industry vs nature bar, either become a farmer and toil on the fields forever or become a miner and toil in the mines forever.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on January 26, 2011, 12:14:13 pm
Yeah, can't argue with that. What H&H really needs is concrete incentive for conflict (taking over resource spots or something), so people can go and fight without feeling like dicks. Also, I agree with the guy that said it needs caps.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: mithra on January 26, 2011, 12:50:39 pm
FYI, permadeath and player-enforced law and order work nearly perfectly in H&H.

I love that you start your opinion with "FYI".  A large number of people disagree with you.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on January 26, 2011, 12:56:37 pm
Well those people must suck at the game, because I've only been killed once in nearly two years of constant playing. And even that death was mostly my own stupidity (took armour off and went AFK). Basically, these people are building a surface fort without any walls, traps or soldiers, and then complaining that goblin sieges are OP.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: mithra on January 26, 2011, 01:00:10 pm
Well those people must suck at the game, because I've only been killed once in nearly two years of constant playing. And even that death was mostly my own stupidity (took armour off and went AFK). Basically, these people are building a surface fort without any walls, traps or soldiers, and then complaining that goblin sieges are OP.

Why, yes, those people who don't agree with you must be bad at the game.  You have such a way with argument.  It's astonishing, really.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on January 26, 2011, 01:00:58 pm
Are you a proffessional strawman builder?
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: mithra on January 26, 2011, 01:03:27 pm
Are you a proffessional strawman builder?

Dude, I quoted your own statement.  Try again.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on January 26, 2011, 01:05:17 pm
My statement is that people who get randomly ganked suck at the game, because some rather simple safety precautions make it virtually impossible to die in this way. Your interpretation is that people who disagree with me suck. How is that not a strawman?
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: mithra on January 26, 2011, 01:11:49 pm
Let's review:

Quote from: DJ
FYI, permadeath and player-enforced law and order work nearly perfectly in H&H.

Quote from: mithra
I love that you start your opinion with "FYI".  A large number of people disagree with you.

Quote from: DJ
Well those people must suck at the game, because I've only been killed once in nearly two years of constant playing. And even that death was mostly my own stupidity (took armour off and went AFK). Basically, these people are building a surface fort without any walls, traps or soldiers, and then complaining that goblin sieges are OP.

Quote from: mithra
Why, yes, those people who don't agree with you must be bad at the game.  You have such a way with argument.  It's astonishing, really.

Quote from: DJ
Are you a proffessional strawman builder?

Quote from: mithra
Dude, I quoted your own statement.  Try again.

Quote from: DJ
My statement is that people who get randomly ganked suck at the game, because some rather simple safety precautions make it virtually impossible to die in this way. Your interpretation is that people who disagree with me suck. How is that not a strawman?

So, clearly, your argument is that people who don't agree with you are bad at the game.  It's fine if you now realize that isn't a great argument, but saying "it's a strawman argument" to deflect from that really is kinda lame.

Okay, done with this.  Feel free to have the last word.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on January 26, 2011, 01:13:30 pm
Uhm, OK. Can you tell me about the cubic nature of space-time again?
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Trappin on January 26, 2011, 01:43:40 pm
Flaws in HnH that should be changed for the Salem client.

1) java client hacks.
2) multi-account macro bottting.
3) Death = losing kin contact list. I'm a trader and depend on random trade encounters and contacts.
4) Barter and Market kiosk system sucks.
5) no skill caps

Salem just needs more options than HnH offers, some diversity in character builds and GM tools to stop people from macro'ing.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Farseer on January 26, 2011, 02:34:35 pm
(worthless comment removed)
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: dogstile on January 26, 2011, 03:59:07 pm
Only beef I have with this is that you can die when offline.

Fuck that, sometimes I can't stay online until it goes away, thats a dick move
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: x2yzh9 on January 26, 2011, 04:46:36 pm
Personally, I'm in favor of the permadeath system, for various reasons-DJ pretty much said it all.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Neonivek on January 26, 2011, 05:36:18 pm
Quote
Salem wasn't about Christians burning Pagans for their beliefs.

It was about Christians burning other Christians either out of insane paranoid fervor or greed (guess what happened to the stuff the 'witches' owned after they died)

Specifically what happened was the people of Salem, due to wet weather, were poisoned from the very food they ate and started to have side-effects (Convulsing for example) and in a panic started to blame almost everyone around them and for the most part it was people in Salem and thus Christians were sentenced.

There wasn't any burning in Salem either.

Honestly the amount of times people use religion as the cause of an event is staggering compared to how often it wasn't the true cause or sometimes even related.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Rift on January 26, 2011, 11:27:58 pm
quick little pre-alpha video loftar posted: http://www.seatribe.se/salem/test.ogv (http://www.seatribe.se/salem/test.ogv)
Don't know how long it will last since its actually on their website.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Farseer on January 27, 2011, 05:02:35 am
quick little pre-alpha video loftar posted: http://www.seatribe.se/salem/test.ogv (http://www.seatribe.se/salem/test.ogv)
Don't know how long it will last since its actually on their website.

Wow, they really ARE using the H&H engine (or at least it's floor tiles) but overlaying 3D graphics on it.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: ductape on January 28, 2011, 10:18:33 am
Quote
Salem wasn't about Christians burning Pagans for their beliefs.

It was about Christians burning other Christians either out of insane paranoid fervor or greed (guess what happened to the stuff the 'witches' owned after they died)

Specifically what happened was the people of Salem, due to wet weather, were poisoned from the very food they ate and started to have side-effects (Convulsing for example) and in a panic started to blame almost everyone around them and for the most part it was people in Salem and thus Christians were sentenced.

There wasn't any burning in Salem either.

Honestly the amount of times people use religion as the cause of an event is staggering compared to how often it wasn't the true cause or sometimes even related.

Only 19 died in Salem, not too bad and you are right, none were burned. The burns happend all across England though during those times and for the same crime "witchcraft". However, to say it was not about religion I cannot agree with. Witchcraft is a religion and it was illegal based upon puritanical law, which stems from religion. It was all about religion, to be sure.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Frumple on January 28, 2011, 10:45:15 am
Except most of the people burned for witchcraft were Christian, not pagan. That's the point th'folks you quoted were trying to make. There were certainly more and more important factors in the murders executions than religion.

Also, referring to "witchcraft" as a religion is pretty misleading, especially during that time period. Non-church sanctioned rituals and other practices weren't exactly something you could group together as a single unified thing -- and for quite a large amount of such things, it's arguable whether there's a religious aspect to them at all. Spiritual, ascetic, or medical aspects, maybe, but those are different things.

Though I wouldn't be terribly surprised if puritanical law just grouped th'lot of such things together and said, "Kill." That's pretty common when dealing with non-believers.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: ductape on January 28, 2011, 10:58:17 am
well, I certainly don't want to get into any sort of debate about the definition of religion so we can leave it at that, please. Let anyone interested decide for themselves.

ON topic: This game looks like carp. Same carp that is H&H. Clickity click click (CLICK!) grind fest causing carpel tunnel syndrome in thousand of people. I just cant stand the whole inventory management "mini-game". Who the hell wants to do that?

The graphics are hideous, at least H&H stayed 2d which has some charm to it. In 3d, it just looks amateur. Yeah I know, placeholder alpha graphics. I just don't have much faith in these dudes.

Oh and that dev interview, the Seatribe guys are kinda creepy, am I right?

Am I here to slam them? A bit I guess. I said my piece and now I wont hang around this thread and bash without constructive criticism.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Rilder on January 28, 2011, 02:39:27 pm
quick little pre-alpha video loftar posted: http://www.seatribe.se/salem/test.ogv (http://www.seatribe.se/salem/test.ogv)
Don't know how long it will last since its actually on their website.

Bottom Right Corner. Is that...Is that the Troll Guy?
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: dogstile on January 28, 2011, 03:58:59 pm
quick little pre-alpha video loftar posted: http://www.seatribe.se/salem/test.ogv (http://www.seatribe.se/salem/test.ogv)
Don't know how long it will last since its actually on their website.

Bottom Right Corner. Is that...Is that the Troll Guy?

Holy shit it is!
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Chandos on August 25, 2011, 07:49:20 pm
Just one thing to add to the list of how perma-death can work: just think why it works in real life. I mean, why are we inclined to work together in real life rather than go on random murderous rampages? It's because there is more to gain from working together than killing each other. Often our survival depends on cooperating with other people. If the game manages to simulate that fact, and rewards the players generously for working together, then you have all the foundation for a real in-game society.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Tilla on September 28, 2011, 01:40:36 pm
http://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive/b/296121854 2 hour gameplay video..

Sadly it really just looks like they tacked 3D onto H&H, with really bad graphics, and then threw Witches at it.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Moogie on September 28, 2011, 08:19:16 pm
http://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive/b/296121854 2 hour gameplay video..

Sadly it really just looks like they tacked 3D onto H&H, with really bad graphics, and then threw Witches at it.

I'm totally cool with that... am I the only one totally cool with that? :/

Seems like they just wanted to make an updated H&H, starting from what made H&H such a great game - building from that point onwards is how we'll see Salem grow into its own unique experience and be less of a straight clone of its predecessor.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: BurnedToast on September 29, 2011, 02:01:14 pm
Just one thing to add to the list of how perma-death can work: just think why it works in real life. I mean, why are we inclined to work together in real life rather than go on random murderous rampages? It's because there is more to gain from working together than killing each other. Often our survival depends on cooperating with other people. If the game manages to simulate that fact, and rewards the players generously for working together, then you have all the foundation for a real in-game society.

This is only half the equation - yes, people tend to work together in real life because you can accomplish more then working alone.

However, the other half is there's a real consequences for being a dick IRL - not so much in a video game you're not taking seriously. What does the griefer have to lose? nothing. He does not care about his character, or his town, or the time anyone spent doing anything - all he cares about is ruining your day. So what if you catch him and lynch him (or whatever) after he kills 5 people and burns half your town down? He does not care he died, he will just make a new guy and do it again till he gets bored.

F2P means they can't even make real consequences.  Ban the guy? oh well, he made a new account.

Sure, most people will work together with just the first half - but there's always the troublesome minority that needs the threat of punishment hanging over them in order to behave, and there's enough of them out there to make things miserable for everyone else if it does not exist.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Fikes on September 29, 2011, 04:43:05 pm
Just one thing to add to the list of how perma-death can work: just think why it works in real life. I mean, why are we inclined to work together in real life rather than go on random murderous rampages? It's because there is more to gain from working together than killing each other. Often our survival depends on cooperating with other people. If the game manages to simulate that fact, and rewards the players generously for working together, then you have all the foundation for a real in-game society.

This is only half the equation - yes, people tend to work together in real life because you can accomplish more then working alone.

However, the other half is there's a real consequences for being a dick IRL - not so much in a video game you're not taking seriously. What does the griefer have to lose? nothing. He does not care about his character, or his town, or the time anyone spent doing anything - all he cares about is ruining your day. So what if you catch him and lynch him (or whatever) after he kills 5 people and burns half your town down? He does not care he died, he will just make a new guy and do it again till he gets bored.

F2P means they can't even make real consequences.  Ban the guy? oh well, he made a new account.

Sure, most people will work together with just the first half - but there's always the troublesome minority that needs the threat of punishment hanging over them in order to behave, and there's enough of them out there to make things miserable for everyone else if it does not exist.

First off, there are some people who want to "go out with a bang". They say, "I don't want to play any more so I'll ruin everyone's day". They may be able to go out and kill a few people. They do the crime with no punishment, fair enough, but it might as well be a perma ban since they leave the community.

Everyone else, however, is subject to a loss (generally pretty substantial) of stats and learning points. In the newest version of HnH, LP are pretty valuable. It isn't AS easy to just farm up a perfect combat character. If a group decides they want to grief, they have to accept the fact that they will lose valuable equipment and LP, period. Fighting is expensive in HnH, even if your group is top dog.

The reason fighting is so expensive is because there are a bunch of protections put in place. Each protection decreases the population that can fuck you over more and more. First, people need the trespassing skill to cross your land if you have a personal claim, so if you put up a personal claim you limit the people who can get to you. Next, if you put up even a basic, simple wall, people require the vandalism skill to get to you, further limiting those who can harass you. Upgrade that to a palisade and how they have to have those skills and a huge amount of strength or build a ram. Brick wall? Now their only option is a ram.

Each of these protections represent more and more of an investment required on the part of the "griefer", more and more that they are not going to want to lose. Also, Vandalism leaves a sent so "rangers" (kind of like volunteer anti-griefers) can track these griefers down and kill them while they are logged off.

It is also worth noting that if they do set up a ram they have to wait 24 hours for it to dry, giving you time to assemble a defense.

But even with a system this good (or convoluted) it is possible to lose everything to some asshole, and that sucks. But it isn't like it happens all the time. I think I have played a combined total of at least 6 months (don't play anymore) and never came across someone who tried to gank me or anything like that.

That being said, if a player isn't taking advantage of the most basic rules of security than they really do suck and deserve to die. People aren't griefing them, they are simply being stupid and trying to play the game in a stupid way.

Those goblins are not griefing you OR over powered. Build some damn cage traps and protect them dwarves!
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Sentientdeth on September 29, 2011, 05:07:39 pm
You make some valid points about HnH, but you neglected to report on the fact that Jorb is an incompetent coder who openly refuses to fix game-breaking bugs.  I was a member of the city of Mexico, which was broken into by some griefers who used a chair to bug themselves over the walls.  We had a few security vaults to house our combat characters that were broken into using the exploding house bug.  As far as I know, neither of these bugs have been addressed (haven't played in about 6 months now). 
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Trappin on October 02, 2011, 02:09:56 am
I was a member of the city of Mexico, which was broken into by some griefers who used a chair to bug themselves over the walls.

(http://i54.tinypic.com/snf9ld.jpg)

This is just one wall at Mexico - I saw four or five more locations where raiders exploited the game code at this village.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Antioch on October 02, 2011, 10:59:02 am
Is it me, or is this just Haven with crappy graphics?
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Fikes on October 04, 2011, 01:33:27 pm
You make some valid points about HnH, but you neglected to report on the fact that Jorb is an incompetent coder who openly refuses to fix game-breaking bugs.  I was a member of the city of Mexico, which was broken into by some griefers who used a chair to bug themselves over the walls.  We had a few security vaults to house our combat characters that were broken into using the exploding house bug.  As far as I know, neither of these bugs have been addressed (haven't played in about 6 months now).

This is true. There are bugs that can totally fuck you over and the dev's say "so soz, kthx by". I don't really understand this mindset. Barring that the PVP system in HnH works better than most of the others I have seen, other than maybe Eve.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Caz on October 04, 2011, 01:36:58 pm
I wish they'd just focused on making H&H better.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on October 04, 2011, 03:04:38 pm
Haven and Hearth pretty much went abandonware when Salem was announced :(

Back in the old days exploits got fixed as soon as they were discovered.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: ScriptWolf on March 23, 2012, 11:14:45 am
Beta signups are out :D

http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=a006a782456

Yeah this is a referral the catch is that you need 3 guys to also sign up, I'm willing to return the favour

I'm really looking forward to this :)
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Dariush on March 23, 2012, 11:28:17 am
Used SW's ref.

Someone use mine please :) http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=9561ad638d3
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Ricky on March 23, 2012, 11:49:00 am
I used Dariush as a signup code, someone please help me into the beta :D
http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=57009b4acbc
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: ScriptWolf on March 23, 2012, 11:52:06 am
Darkish I used my second email to help you out :) congrats you only need 1 more guy :P
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: hemmingjay on March 23, 2012, 12:03:28 pm
would appreciate anyone using my link to sign up for the beta....
http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=4b67b18cd9b

EDIT: I'm all set, thanks guys!
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: x2yzh9 on March 23, 2012, 12:06:16 pm
Beta signups are out :D

http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=a006a782456

Yeah this is a referral the catch is that you need 3 guys to also sign up, I'm willing to return the favour

I'm really looking forward to this :)
I used Scriptwolf's referral to sign up. Someone please use my referral code, I'd greatly appreciate it. Let's all get into this beta and start a B12 clan/guild/whatever they have as the group mechanic.

http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=b0a1d7bda31
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: ScriptWolf on March 23, 2012, 12:09:41 pm
A bay12 town does sound very good let's try and get this going :D
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: ductape on March 23, 2012, 12:12:02 pm
I used HemmingJay's to sign up since hes so generous around here, I know lots of you are but he sticks out to me.

Heres's my link, I hope a few of y'all can click it and signup for me!

http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=a3e8c7fc155
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: hemmingjay on March 23, 2012, 12:16:05 pm
I returned the favor and signed up on Ductape's link.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: ScriptWolf on March 23, 2012, 12:20:19 pm
@hemmingjay

When you get the 3 signups do you get sent another email to let you know ?
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Drakale on March 23, 2012, 12:32:39 pm
Signed on ductape here is mine,

http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=99d14663e16 (http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=99d14663e16)
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Sirian on March 23, 2012, 12:39:57 pm
I used Drakale's, here's mine

http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=4701d6a623a
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: ductape on March 23, 2012, 12:46:26 pm
That means I only need one more WOOO! thanks guys!

http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=a3e8c7fc155

psssstt.....ONE MORE
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Kansa on March 23, 2012, 01:12:12 pm
There you go ductape the final one you need

Here is my link if anyone wants to use it to sign up http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=eec264b2ba6
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: hemmingjay on March 23, 2012, 01:12:43 pm
@hemmingjay

When you get the 3 signups do you get sent another email to let you know ?

Not as far as I can tell, but I know 6 people have used mine now. So I can only hope they track it accurately.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Apple Master on March 23, 2012, 01:15:57 pm
Hiiiiii guyyyyyyyyyyys I decided to stop lurking and post for my own gain again.

my ref link is here: http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=297663d45c4

I think I used someones who asked me on steam.

It was a bay12er for sure though.

Ta.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Dariush on March 23, 2012, 01:18:12 pm
Need one more! http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=9561ad638d3
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: exoleet on March 23, 2012, 02:17:30 pm
http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=f13e410d104

Here's my reference link.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: melvis on March 23, 2012, 03:13:15 pm
http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=8ed61b89eb9 need help :Z
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Neonivek on March 23, 2012, 03:19:16 pm
The closest I've seen to Perma death being done well was when pernament death was actually part of the gameplay (It is how you advanced through the game in fact... as the entire game was about reincarnation)
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: ukulele on March 23, 2012, 04:17:59 pm
Registered with exoleet referral, heres mine:
http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=09b2b5c170a (http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=09b2b5c170a)
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Rilder on March 23, 2012, 04:32:19 pm
Registered with exoleet referral, heres mine:
http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=09b2b5c170a (http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=09b2b5c170a)

Registered with yours, heres mine: http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=33cabf7eb87


Even though I hate that referral bullshit sites do. :|
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: LegitMacgyver on March 23, 2012, 04:35:54 pm
Alright then, I will play....

http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=fd0734dbe76
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: hemmingjay on March 23, 2012, 06:58:30 pm
yes. yes you can. Unless they check for IP's?
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: SirHoder on March 23, 2012, 07:25:20 pm
Ok, Used Marcvin's link.. hope that gets him sorted...

And now to continue the chain...
http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=c4c9909cb6b
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: anexiledone on March 23, 2012, 07:33:47 pm
If I could get some help, that'd be awesome.

http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=04cf4da3b7e
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Will Alvein on March 23, 2012, 07:52:21 pm
http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=c4c9909cb6b

Used SirHoder's link, here's mine if anybody wants to help me http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=13cc4ea8722

Thank you.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: ukulele on March 23, 2012, 08:08:37 pm
I realised that with the way we are making thing we will only acomplish to have all the forum with 1 invite left, and no one playing :P
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: fred1248 on March 24, 2012, 01:38:31 am
I used Alvein's link.

http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=d8a29c0f878

Here's mine, if anyone's interested.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Infuriated on March 24, 2012, 04:41:47 am
Used fred1248's link.

And mine, http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=7e1520fa049

I'd also like to insert a plug. I like survival games such as this, my birthdays in April and my username was created in preparation of my impending failure to be signed up. How do I know? The me from the future was so enraged he went back in time just to slap my shit and tell me to make it right.

Wont you do the right thing? /animalabusecommercialmusic
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DrPoo on March 24, 2012, 06:26:27 am
Im so much fucking iN! The permadeath will scare away the internet assholes and leave modest players, griefers and trolls, without 12 year olds and fandom.
Combined with my fasvorite game elements, fuck YES!
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Dariush on March 24, 2012, 07:41:55 am
Im so much fucking iN! The permadeath will scare away the internet assholes and leave modest players, griefers and trolls, without 12 year olds and fandom.
...Someone hasn't seen Haven & Hearth.

So, did anyone receive an e-mail after getting three refs?
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: TheCze on March 24, 2012, 07:50:17 am
Sorry, registered before I saw all the ref links here. Anyway, here is mine:
[Link removed, enough people signed up on mine, thanks]
Would be glad if someone would use it :)
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Briggsy16 on March 24, 2012, 08:12:09 am
http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=71a89f1cfd6

Here's my referal link :D
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DrPoo on March 24, 2012, 12:40:11 pm
Signed up on your links, heres mine: http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=c722e032b89
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: vagel7 on March 24, 2012, 12:53:42 pm
http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=29894dada3d (http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=29894dada3d) - My referral
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: inteuniso on March 24, 2012, 01:03:48 pm
Count me IN!

Signed up on rilder's: http://beta.salemthegame.com/users/confirm?ref=c674d0df989
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Apple Master on March 24, 2012, 01:59:19 pm
UH, yeah, how do I actually know if I've gotten enough to be "in"?
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: magistrate101 on March 24, 2012, 02:13:44 pm
Here's my referral: http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=856524df587
I hope I get in on the beta :)
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: x2yzh9 on March 24, 2012, 02:42:11 pm
Has anyone used my ref link? Reposting just in case

http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=b0a1d7bda31
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Poltifar on March 24, 2012, 02:44:23 pm
Shiver me timbers!

http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=5b5ff6f63db
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: TheCze on March 24, 2012, 10:36:00 pm
UH, yeah, how do I actually know if I've gotten enough to be "in"?
Unfortunately they won't tell you once you hit three people so you'll only know if the people who signed up told you.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Haschel on March 25, 2012, 12:43:15 am
Hrm. I had a lot of issues with HnH, but I suppose I'd still give this a shot.
Has anyone used my ref link? Reposting just in case

http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=b0a1d7bda31
Used x2yzh9's reference. Mine is here:http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=1048cb6648d (http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=1048cb6648d)
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Koja on March 25, 2012, 01:47:28 pm
Used Haschel's.

Mine is http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=c52265e023c
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Infuriated on March 25, 2012, 02:10:31 pm
Used fred1248's link.

And mine, http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=7e1520fa049

I'd also like to insert a plug. I like survival games such as this, my birthdays in April and my username was created in preparation of my impending failure to be signed up. How do I know? The me from the future was so enraged he went back in time just to slap my shit and tell me to make it right.

Wont you do the right thing? /animalabusecommercialmusic
Bumping mine up since it ended up as the last post on the page... Please let me know if you've signed up using mine.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: joemoben on March 25, 2012, 02:13:09 pm
I used Koja's.


http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=bf95f0a62f1


This looks pretty interesting and like something I would play. Definitely gonna follow.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Megaman on March 25, 2012, 04:26:47 pm
Used Joe's

Mine: http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=60464f5b65c
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Ringmaster on March 25, 2012, 04:32:02 pm
Is it worth mentioning it's actually being developed by the same team (Seatribe) as Haven and Hearth?

My referral, if anyone's interested. (http://beta.salemthegame.com/users/confirm?ref=74f34fff125)
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Neyvn on March 25, 2012, 04:54:02 pm
Used this Link

Here we go folks, everyone will be chained...
http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=b60e7d86088
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Labs on March 25, 2012, 08:04:00 pm
Used joemoben's.

Mine: http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=0fa81a25bc9 (http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=0fa81a25bc9)
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: adwarf on March 26, 2012, 07:22:10 am
Used Joe's to get his referral finished out.

http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=c2978395185
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: joemoben on March 26, 2012, 08:19:54 am
Thank you all I'm really looking forward to this one.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Impending Doom on March 26, 2012, 02:50:22 pm
Used Labs' link. Here's mine, if you please:

http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=7234e21e9fc (http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=7234e21e9fc)
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: matusel3 on March 26, 2012, 05:59:07 pm
I used Impending Doom's link.

Can a couple of folks please use mine?

http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=10d6cc18aaa
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: antlion12 on April 03, 2012, 09:56:25 pm
Already forgot which link i used but mine is'

http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=90e888f69e7 (http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=90e888f69e7)
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: jashman on April 04, 2012, 09:37:38 am
Okay, I'll bite.  Used Impending Doom's.

http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=e74a2de3726
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on April 15, 2012, 02:58:00 am
Apparently the beta starts tomorrow - source (http://www.havenandhearth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14667&start=1890#p342602)
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DrPoo on April 15, 2012, 03:06:44 am
Could somebody please use my referral?
I cant remember whose referral i used but someones it was.

http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=c722e032b89
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Angel Of Death on April 15, 2012, 03:11:22 am
http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=f370efa4f5d (http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=f370efa4f5d)

Here's my referral.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Denisius on April 15, 2012, 04:15:05 am
Used Angel Of Death's.

My own referral:
http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=a7167558f6c
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Evil Marahadja on April 15, 2012, 05:02:20 am
Used Angel Of Death's.

My own referral:
http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=a7167558f6c

Used this.

http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=5f418856fb0
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Girlinhat on April 15, 2012, 08:40:56 am
Do I care about this?  I've seen some of the gameplay video, it looks like HnH in 3D.  They even used identical button icons last I saw.  I'm also playing Wurm right now.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on April 15, 2012, 09:08:02 am
Virtually all of the art you see is placeholder The game is still in beta.

And yes, it's quite similar to H&H, but it's a far cry from just H&H 3D. Most of the core mechanics are brand new, and all the worst problems with H&H mechanics have been resolved. I wish I could go into detail, but I'm under an NDA :(

I fully expect vast majority of people who get into the beta to be very disappointed, though, because the game is quite content-poor at this stage of development.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Girlinhat on April 15, 2012, 09:11:08 am
This is one point where I hate NDA.  You can't brag about the game and convince me to play it!
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on April 15, 2012, 09:14:18 am
I think it might be lifted when beta starts tomorrow.

Still, I expect vast majority of people who get into beta to give you negative remarks about the game because it really is completely bare-bones when it comes to content. Kinda like H&H back in May '09.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: KoE on April 15, 2012, 09:34:47 am
Man, I know you probably didn't mean it the way I read it but H&H circa summer '09 just reminds me of the glory days. (Although I'm sure that's tinted by nostalgia, heh)

Either way, it's worth a shot. Glad I went through the trouble to gather referrals after all.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on April 15, 2012, 09:50:50 am
IMO the one thing that made those glory days so good was weekly updates. And Salem beta is bound to have those too if they plan to have enough content for a Q3 '12 launch.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: HLBeta on April 15, 2012, 11:57:28 am
Used Evil Marahadja's referral since it was at top of page.

http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=0394605bd71
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: hemmingjay on April 17, 2012, 06:42:47 am
Got my beta acceptance email today! There is no information yet on when it starts but it said that it should happen soon.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Sirian on April 17, 2012, 07:41:27 am
I feel like the victim of a ponzi scheme right now. Oh well. At least it'll have more content when i get to play it.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Mickey Blue on April 17, 2012, 09:33:38 am
I love me some Lovecraft and the game looks interesting, if any three people want to sign up with my name let me know :)

http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=e9b59b573f0
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DrPoo on April 17, 2012, 09:36:52 am
I feel like the victim of a ponzi scheme right now. Oh well. At least it'll have more content when i get to play it.

What is a ponzi scheme?
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Girlinhat on April 17, 2012, 09:48:35 am
www.lmgtfy.com/?q=ponzi+scheme
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DrPoo on April 17, 2012, 10:24:55 am
www.lmgtfy.com/?q=ponzi+scheme

Ah i see.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: hemmingjay on April 17, 2012, 10:59:09 am
www.lmgtfy.com/?q=ponzi+scheme

Ah i see.

Let me put it in better terms for your avatar.......if you want to know a pretty fact.....you know you can't be lazy
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DrPoo on April 17, 2012, 11:41:53 am
www.lmgtfy.com/?q=ponzi+scheme

Ah i see.

Let me put it in better terms for your avatar.......if you want to know a pretty fact.....you know you can't be lazy

Oh well. Im in! :D
I cant wait to try out this awesome game :D
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Siquo on April 17, 2012, 01:15:05 pm
Well, I think I'd like to check this out... Just hope it's not too grindy  ::)

Reference
http://beta.salemthegame.com/?ref=81563cc52ac
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on April 23, 2012, 11:26:05 am
So there's been a stealth launch for the beta. Check your inboxes for client download link if you got the invite.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Infuriated on April 24, 2012, 12:30:52 am
I'm invited but I didn't get any download link today. ???
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DrPoo on April 24, 2012, 06:10:25 am
I'm invited but I didn't get any download link today. ???

Neither me, what bunch of assholes.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on April 24, 2012, 06:45:21 am
They're getting out invites gradually, *after* they delayed alpha for over a week to get the invites out ::)
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Infuriated on April 24, 2012, 06:27:38 pm
I got my 2nd email around 10:30 AM EST, sadly I slept through my alarm around 4 to 7 so I'm only going to be able to play a little bit... :'(

Anyway, keep an eye on your email I suppose. Hope to see you guys around.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Impending Doom on April 24, 2012, 07:43:52 pm
Got my beta key today, and played around with character creation a bit. I don't see anything resembling a 'hearth secret' mechanic. How will potential Bay 12 villagers meet up?
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Dariush on April 25, 2012, 09:34:39 am
Yay, got my beta key.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Dariush on April 25, 2012, 10:17:01 am
Oh god, this game is so fucking bad.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Lord Dullard on April 25, 2012, 10:40:04 am
Oh god, this game is so fucking bad.

Explain.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Dariush on April 25, 2012, 11:16:31 am
1) Initially, you can't even collect braches. Instead, you have to search the WHOLE FUCKING MAP for curiosities. That's not a joke - me and three buddies found like six curiosities in over an hour of separate search. Moreover, each curio only corresponds to 2-4 parameters. Once you find it, you can upgrade one of those parameters. Once you upgrade two specific parameters, you'll unlock the very first Survival skill that allows you to COLLECT BRANCHES.

2) The 3D perspective completely ruins the game. If you're heading anywhere except to the top of the screen, the screen will slowly rotate, making it impossible to go in a straight line.

3) Pathfinding is just as fucked as in H&H. Stumbled on a fucking GRASSHOPPER? Sorry, you'll have to stop right fucking now. Also, unverified rumors say that grasshoppers can knock you out.

4) The whole 'utter wilderness' feeling is fucked. Now you can find stuff like Indian fucking arrowheads that you can sell to NPCs for money, which you can use to buy settlement deeds or more curiosities. Without those NPCs it's impossible to get literally anywhere.

5)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
See this guy walking on water swimming? Some of that water is shallow and easily crossable. Some is deep and uncrossable. Good luck figuring out which is which and whether there's even a way across the river.

6) Those curiosities... Damn, they deserve a whole separate point of 'why this shit sucks'. Apparently, a Smooth Stone can increase your knowledge of Natural Philosophy and a... Taste of The New World increases Law & fucking Lore.

In short, Salem took exactly the things that made H&H bad, none of the halfay-decent things and heaped a pile of dogshit on the result.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Lord Dullard on April 25, 2012, 11:36:10 am
Thanks. I was trying to get a bit more info before I decided to try it, since I wasn't very fond of H&H because of how obtuse it could be... now I know to avoid this, at least for now.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Girlinhat on April 25, 2012, 12:02:57 pm
Allow me to LOL here.  It looks like HnH with a 3D engine and even worse startup gameplay.  Don't know how to collect branches?  Some survivalist you are!
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: hemmingjay on April 25, 2012, 12:06:08 pm
Might actually be more grindy and obtuse than Wurm
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Girlinhat on April 25, 2012, 12:38:13 pm
Might actually be more grindy and obtuse than Wurm
And that doesn't happen by accident.  It takes concentrated, directed effort to design a game more grindy and obtuse than wurm.  One does not make a bad game design and have it end up like that, you have to do it on purpose.  Which means, among other things, that it's unlikely to be changed, because it's intentional.

Additionally, I liked HnH except the curio and LP system.  I never quite understood how holding a bit of wood in your pocket makes you a better metalsmith.  Wurm is grindy, but it's a grind that makes sense.  If you want to be a better metalsmith, you get your hands on some metal.  HnH?  Stare at rocks for a month and end up being the best metalsmithin on the server who's never touched a hammer!
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Dariush on April 25, 2012, 12:54:46 pm
Additionally, I liked HnH except the curio and LP system.  I never quite understood how holding a bit of wood in your pocket makes you a better metalsmith.  Wurm is grindy, but it's a grind that makes sense.  If you want to be a better metalsmith, you get your hands on some metal.  HnH?  Stare at rocks for a month and end up being the best metalsmithin on the server who's never touched a hammer!
My thoughts, basically.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on April 25, 2012, 01:40:40 pm
I'm gonna defend these design choices as soon as I'm sober!
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Dariush on April 25, 2012, 01:50:25 pm
I'm gonna defend these design choices as soon as I'm sober!
Why do you think you'll want to when you are sober?
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: KoE on April 25, 2012, 02:24:34 pm
I didn't and still don't mind the curio paradigm, but holy christ, I spent half an hour beelining away from Boston and didn't encounter anything interactable (besides a boulder I could lift). Figuring I'd missed something, I laboriously watched the 'LP tutorial' (the first two of which were interminable and profoundly useless  ::)) before realizing I was supposed to find a rock or whatever. In another half hour of searching I've found a piece of grass on a cliff that seemed to be unpickable due to its location.

I'm assuming this is just a blunder of the beta launch not accounting for how many folks are running around and not actual intended gameplay but that makes it no less aggravating.

I'll also agree the 3D just makes navigating a chore. Really need some camera options.

At this point my impression is somewhere between 'lol, obvious beta' and 'I really wish they'd stuck with Haven & Hearth'.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: ductape on April 25, 2012, 08:01:45 pm
got my beta email, i COULD dl and play. BUT I WILL NOT! this looks pathetic.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Impending Doom on April 25, 2012, 08:31:12 pm
Am I the only one who isn't quite ready to dismiss this game yet? I agree that foraging rates are far too low, but isn't discovering issues like this what a beta is for? If the devs will just make foraging a tad easier and make maple leaves respawn properly, I will be happy.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: hemmingjay on April 25, 2012, 08:39:15 pm
I'm not abandoning it, but I am a bit aggravated that I spent 2 hours finding 2 smooth stone, which was necessary so I could make even the most modest progress in the game. It's obnoxious and I fully understand why anyone would abandon it at this point.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: ductape on April 25, 2012, 11:12:41 pm
these guys should know exactly how to pull this off, after all it is just H&H 2.0

and yet...
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Dariush on April 26, 2012, 05:55:00 am
these guys should know exactly how to pull this off, after all it is just H&H 2.0
After fucking up H&H in W5 onwards due to a bullshit excuse about 'protection against bots'? The only thing those idiots know is how to take a decent thing and make it horribly suck.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Girlinhat on April 26, 2012, 08:57:57 am
Their "protection against bots" works as well as you can expect, considering it's protecting a flawed method to begin with.  LP doesn't make sense, in realworld terms or in gameworld mechanics.  In realworld it's just insane.  Stare at a rock, become a soldier.  In gameworld it doesn't even work.  However you're gaining LP is an arbitrary method and there is no good way to balance it, period.

This is not just an issue "curios are bad" but it's a much more basic issue, "LP is bad."  It's broken at the very basic level.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on April 26, 2012, 09:40:26 am
Indeed. And that is the beauty of Salem - skill values have been made fairly unimportant, it's all about stats now. FEPs were always a good system IMO, and Salem makes it even better.

I don't see how studying stuff doesn't make sense lore wise, never heard of educational toys? Anyway, I think it works OK here. The main point of curios was never stopping botting, it was rewarding player skill. With the crappy old LP system all you had to do was find the most LP rewarding activity and grind it like a madman, and anyone who did anything that gives less LP (ie work that you actually need done) or even stuff that didn't give LP at all (tidying up the cupboards, hauling logs or just chatting) wound up useless for combat.

Anyway, the main issue with Salem right now is centralized spawn. There is literally *nothing* for several hours around Boston, I know because I looked with a character that has most of the foraging skills. It just mirrors the RoB of H&H world 2, where there weren't any trees within an hour of the spawn point. Centralized spawn is a bad design choice, and the devs will have to change it now that it's so obvious it doesn't work.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Errol on April 26, 2012, 10:10:39 am
Indeed. And that is the beauty of Salem - skill values have been made fairly unimportant, it's all about stats now. FEPs were always a good system IMO, and Salem makes it even better.

I don't see how studying stuff doesn't make sense lore wise, never heard of educational toys? Anyway, I think it works OK here. The main point of curios was never stopping botting, it was rewarding player skill. With the crappy old LP system all you had to do was find the most LP rewarding activity and grind it like a madman, and anyone who did anything that gives less LP (ie work that you actually need done) or even stuff that didn't give LP at all (tidying up the cupboards, hauling logs or just chatting) wound up useless for combat.

Anyway, the main issue with Salem right now is centralized spawn. There is literally *nothing* for several hours around Boston, I know because I looked with a character that has most of the foraging skills. It just mirrors the RoB of H&H world 2, where there weren't any trees within an hour of the spawn point. Centralized spawn is a bad design choice, and the devs will have to change it now that it's so obvious it doesn't work.

For the matter, the one of World 1 too. (Good times, nevertheless.) They should perhaps have remembered that lesson.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Dariush on April 26, 2012, 10:38:48 am
FEPs were always a good system IMO
Please tell me you are kidding. Please.

How the hell does 'eat bear meat to improve strength' constitue a good system? Or have you forgotten how the most dire problem most new settlements faced was the absence of a very specific kind of fish that improved perception?

LP system makes just a bit of sense in that someone who's already put a lot of LP into, for example, carpentry would probably gain more LP from making stuff from wood. FEPs make no sense whatso-fucking-ever.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on April 26, 2012, 10:41:25 am
How does magic in RPGs make any sense? It's a damn game, so suspend your fucking disbelief.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Girlinhat on April 26, 2012, 10:42:52 am
How does magic in RPGs make any sense? It's a damn game, so suspend your fucking disbelief.
Ah, the good old "it's a game, if you want anything to make sense then you're an idiot" argument.  Contrary to unpopular belief, it's possible for games to make sense and be realistic.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Dariush on April 26, 2012, 10:46:27 am
How does magic in RPGs make any sense? It's a damn game, so suspend your fucking disbelief.
If there was magic in real world and some game was fucking up it's representation, I would get pissed. However, there isn't. But there are such things as strength and dexterity in real world. AND THEY ARE NOT IMPROVED BY EATING FUCKING BEAR MEAT.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on April 26, 2012, 11:01:31 am
Do you really think that lifting weights all day long would be fun gameplay? "Raising stats" IRL is stupendously boring, so I really don't see why would anyone want realism here.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Dariush on April 26, 2012, 11:09:35 am
So you mean spending a shitload of time looking for random grass, stones and fish isn't
Quote
stupendously boring
. Right.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on April 26, 2012, 11:22:53 am
Infinitely more fun than lifting weights. Or making three billion buckets, or whatever it is that you want.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: fenrif on April 26, 2012, 11:56:22 am
So illogical nonsense boring is better than realistic boring?
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on April 26, 2012, 12:08:08 pm
Except it's nowhere near as boring.

And really, do you guys also think that Star Wars is an abomination because space fighters fly like planes?
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Dariush on April 26, 2012, 12:10:27 pm
And really, do you guys also think that Star Wars is an abomination because space fighters fly like planes?
...Yes?

Fanboys gotta fanboy.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on April 26, 2012, 12:15:03 pm
Really? You think Star Wars (the originals, not the crappy prequels) were horrible movies because they weren't realistic? My God, you just may be the worst person ever to watch movies with. I bet loud comments got you banned in all cinemas in your county.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Dariush on April 26, 2012, 12:18:35 pm
Really? You think Star Wars (the originals, not the crappy prequels) were horrible movies because they weren't realistic? My God, you just may be the worst person ever to watch movies with. I bet loud comments got you banned in all cinemas in your county.
Er, I didn't actually say they were horrible. But yes, they were horrible and not only because of being horrifically unrealistic. Now can we please return to the topic of your pink-glassed fanboyism Salem?
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on April 26, 2012, 12:23:59 pm
Well, there isn't much to discuss on the latest topic because you think imagination is a crime.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: fenrif on April 26, 2012, 12:36:28 pm
Except it's nowhere near as boring.

And really, do you guys also think that Star Wars is an abomination because space fighters fly like planes?

It's not about realism. It's about suspension of disbelief and internal consistency, which is a tricky thing. Space fighters flying like planes works because the two things have a lot in common conceptually. They both fly, they both have wings, they both shoot guns, etc. Looking at a rock turning you into a better soldier just shatters that suspension because it's so bizzare and counter-intuitive that you can't help but pick at it.

H&H and Salem are both presented as fairly realistic worlds, like the one we live in. It creates, and we expect, a certain level of consistency within that framework. Much like how you can forgive a sci-fi movie for having space magic, because it fits in with everything else in the narrative, you can forgive a game for having wildly unrealistic systems if it fits in with the rest of what's presented. However if you take the force and put it in Blade Runner (for example) it suddenly becomes absurd and your disbelief comes crashing back in, because it's inconsistent with the rest of what you're seeing.


Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Tasticka on April 26, 2012, 12:39:22 pm
Oh, where he actually said or considered imagination to be a crime? Thing I can dig out of it is that use of imagination for entertaining has its boundaries.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Dariush on April 26, 2012, 12:40:55 pm
Well, there isn't much to discuss on the latest topic because you think imagination is a crime.
Go imagine yourself a perfect game. And a perfect world, while you're at it.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on April 26, 2012, 12:55:43 pm
Really, curios/inspirationals don't make sense? So you would say you haven't learned anything from building lego houses as a child? Playing is *the* method of learning IRL, so I really don't see how it's so hard to swallow learning from toys in a game.

And Salem is everything but realistic. It's eventually going to have broom-flying witches and it already has braziers which magically knock you out when you walk on claims. But the biggest break from reality is definitely the scope of character advancement, because IRL you will *never* increase your strength 100-fold, no matter how much you practice. And what do you know, virtually every RPG ever breaks realism on this one.

Using items rather than actions for character advancement fits Salem's tagline - The Crafting MMO - perfectly. The game is supposed to be about building and improving your infrastructure, and you have to make character development depend on it to do so. If it's just actions, why would you ever bother with improving quality of your stuff when the optimal strategy is to just grind away on whatever gives the most experience? Which reminds me of a major flaw in Salem's design - it actually encourages using just one type of inspirational to fill a bar rather than a balanced "diet", but that's bound to change.

And yes, it is quite bad that your only options for getting started are chestnuts and smooth stones. Why do you think I repeated so many times before the beta started that the game is currently content-poor and will make most people disappointed?
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Dariush on April 26, 2012, 12:59:52 pm
Really, curios/inspirationals don't make sense? So you would say you haven't learned anything from building lego houses as a child? Playing is *the* method of learning IRL, so I really don't see how it's so hard to swallow learning from toys in a game.
I'd sure as fuck like to see some baby learn architecture by building a lego house.
And yes, it is quite bad that your only options for getting started are chestnuts and smooth stones. Why do you think I repeated so many times before the beta started that the game is currently content-poor and will make most people disappointed?
Content-poor != intentionally badly designed.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on April 26, 2012, 01:07:14 pm
And I'd sure as fuck love to see a person who hasn't grasped the basic concepts of spatial relations learn architecture.

And really, what would you have? Building thousands of baskets and chopping thousands of trees for experience alone because it's somehow more realistic? Even if it is, it is still inferior gameplay because it's mind-numbingly grindy and doesn't involve any actual decision making. And if you're not making decisions you're not playing a game, you're watching it. Even if it actually requires you to turn the crank on the projector.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Carrion on April 26, 2012, 01:10:09 pm
Really, curios/inspirationals don't make sense? So you would say you haven't learned anything from building lego houses as a child? Playing is *the* method of learning IRL, so I really don't see how it's so hard to swallow learning from toys in a game.
I'd sure as fuck like to see some baby learn architecture by building a lego house.

Huh?  Are you really disputing the fact that children learn from playing by citing the fact that babies can't draft floor plans? 
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Dariush on April 26, 2012, 01:16:24 pm
And really, what would you have? Building thousands of baskets and chopping thousands of trees for experience alone because it's somehow more realistic? Even if it is, it is still inferior gameplay because it's mind-numbingly grindy and doesn't involve any actual decision making. And if you're not making decisions you're not playing a game, you're watching it. Even if it actually requires you to turn the crank on the projector.
So, collecting curios isn't mind-numbingly grindy and involves tons of actual decision making. Right. And obviously it's logical that finding a grass and pondering it would make you a better achitect.

Huh?  Are you really disputing the fact that children learn from playing by citing the fact that babies can't draft floor plans? 
No, I'm disputing Fanboy's logic, because he says almost exactly that. Babies learn basic logic by playing, so piligrims would learn weaponsmithing and engineering by playing, my ass.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on April 26, 2012, 01:29:36 pm
Foraged curios are only a small percentage of the total number. And optimizing production of crafted curios and choosing which ones to make in the first place *does* involve a ton of decision making.

And no, pilgrims would learn skills by having master artisans teach them. So yeah, let's just make it so you buy skills for silver, that would be super realistic.

And piss off with personal insults already.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Koja on April 26, 2012, 01:33:31 pm
So far: Not a fan of the study system.

What can new players actually do?
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on April 26, 2012, 01:35:09 pm
Not much, sadly. It takes a day or so of foraging grind to get to the fun part. More early game content is in the pipeline, after the combat system is redone.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Dariush on April 26, 2012, 01:36:00 pm
And no, pilgrims would learn skills by having master artisans teach them.
Pondering a grass and a small rock != getting stuff taught by master artisans.
And piss off with personal insults already.
I didn't insult you.

What can new players actually do?
Run around for hours on end, searching for stones to ponder. Nothing else. No part of the previous two sentences was a joke.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on April 26, 2012, 01:40:20 pm
Uhm, yeah, I did just say that the realistic way to learn skills would be learning from other people, not that it would be anything like the current system. Thing is, rediscovering millennia worth of technology in a single generation, let alone a couple of months would be even more immersion breaking. Having it take realistically long time (ie millennia) would make for a pretty bad game, though. So yeah, the realistic approach is completely infeasible.

And you go out of your way to call me a Fanboy (with a capital F) in every post, using it to mock me and dismiss my opinions. If that isn't an insult, then I don't know what is.

*edit* Wait, actually you *could* learn from NPCs. Maybe they could teach you in exchange for fetching them some items, like say stones and grass. Hmmm...
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Rakonas on April 26, 2012, 01:48:14 pm
I don't know about you guys, but a game where you ponder stones sounds great to me. Mad philosophical and shit.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Dariush on April 26, 2012, 01:49:27 pm
Maybe they could teach you in exchange for fetching them some items, like say stones and grass. Hmmm...
...So the game doesn't have enough... I dunno, 'natural' grind, so now it's supposed to have fucking fetch quests. Gah.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on April 26, 2012, 01:51:28 pm
But it would be REALISTIC ::)
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Siquo on April 26, 2012, 01:53:49 pm
Maybe they could teach you in exchange for fetching them some items, like say stones and grass. Hmmm...
...So the game doesn't have enough... I dunno, 'natural' grind, so now it's supposed to have fucking fetch quests. Gah.
Hey, either book you two a room, or knock it off.
DJ has valid points, and even agrees with you, expanding on your ideas: I fetch my teachers money to get educated, that makes sense. You're just trying to disqualify everything he's been saying for a little while, just because it's him. Relax, take a breath, and move on.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Dariush on April 26, 2012, 01:59:01 pm
DJ has valid points, and even agrees with you, expanding on your ideas: I fetch my teachers money to get educated, that makes sense.
Yes, that makes sense in any other game. But Salem is supposed to have wilderness exploration, survival and building from nothing as it's key factor. Which is kinda ruined by any NPC interaction whatsoever, and especially in such a critical way as skill advancement.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on April 26, 2012, 02:01:21 pm
You can't have realism AND bootstrapping from nothing to the level of technology Europeans had during colonization of Americas.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: KoE on April 26, 2012, 02:21:56 pm
Jeez, I was afraid to step into the conversation about the mechanics and evidently that was a justified fear. I'll second Siquo's request to take it to PMs. 

As I've gotten further from Boston, the game has started to grown on me. The good ol' fashioned Brodgar wasteland and whatever bug is keeping maple leaves from respawning seem to be the worst culprits for making the game completely unfun. I managed to trip over a feather so I could even get my own forest to myself (for the most part).

I really wish that if the spot you logged out on had something in it, the game would just log you in nearby instead of making you teleport home and drop all your crap. I lost a load of salt and rare curios because it was stuck under my lean-to when the game finally loaded.

It also seems that the minimap has a problem since around my homestead, which is pretty much pure forest as far as I've found, it claims there's grasslands and even a player built road, which upon investigation are clearly not there.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: ductape on April 26, 2012, 10:55:08 pm
I have just had it with this.

Decided to see for myself, clicked the email links, made a Paradox account, went to my games page, entered the key. NOTHING, game shows but no download happens. Try another browser, NOTHING.

Searched forum for similar problems, and found them. Found a link to the client, got that. Crashed. Checked for latest version of Java, was already at latest version of Java. Crash. Crash. Crash.

Done.

Seatribe are ass-hats.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Infuriated on April 27, 2012, 07:03:08 pm
Just like to start off saying I HATE THE CURIO SYSTEM. But I can see how it's realistic, there's no way mankind would have advanced an inch if we didn't study and investigate resources and other such things to learn from and apply to new technologies. A basic example would be having a rope, one would more than likely study it to understand how it could be used elsewhere and from there, apply it to your needs through invention. (there's a shitton of things a rope can do for you that making 2,000 of them wont tell you).

IS IT FUN? That depends on the person, so arguing that is just dumb since it's UR OPINION HURHURHUR, etc etc. If you don't like it leave the game alone and never return because despite some huge egotistical opinion, people are going to like things you don't! I don't like it, I'd honestly rather sit for several hours whittling away at wood making forks but that's me and maybe a whole demographic but not the entirety of it.

Overall I haven't played much of Salem beta and I didn't much touch H&H after they added the curio system, so I might as well not know what the hell I'm talking about, so that's my disclaimer. However, I REALLY love wilderness survival crafting games and understand betas are not perfect, so I'll stick around and see if I warm up to these features.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Dariush on April 28, 2012, 03:47:49 am
Studying a rope to learn what to do with it makes sense. Studying a rock to learn how to collect branches is extremely stupid. Guess which type exists in game?

Edit: oh, that reminds me. Novus Mundus, another wilderness-survival-type game I created a thread on this forum about, is going to incorporate the first type, specifically different applications of any given object.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Sonlirain on April 28, 2012, 04:38:24 am
Ok i played a little bit of HH and here are my opinions on this piece.

Give starting players more things to do as searching for rocks and grass for the first several hours is tedious, grindy and straight up retarded.
Maybe increase the starting skills/stats so they can manufacture some basic curios from easy to find and renewable resources.
Something like this -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorodango
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DrPoo on April 28, 2012, 05:46:48 am
How do i get maple leaves?
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Siquo on April 28, 2012, 06:18:34 am
How do i get maple leaves?

Apparently, by contemplating rocks.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Ricky on April 29, 2012, 10:51:13 am
so, if you're completely butthurt about looking for random objects like a blind monkey, have no fear! A client (http://www.havenandhearth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=27378&start=0) has come out which shows all items on the map, and a few other interesting bits added in. Now, this doesn't solve the "Study a rock to pick a leaf" problem, but it does help with the "there's no damn rocks to study" problem
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Trappin on April 29, 2012, 12:52:05 pm
Quote
And here we are again. I present you custom client for Salem! Click here to install it.


Are the parental units at Paradox awake? I think the neighborhood kids just shoved a firecracker up a swamp frog's ass.




Postby brohammed » Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:07 pm
POWERGAMING COMES TO AN UNRELEASED GAME AWW YEAHHH
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Dariush on April 29, 2012, 02:11:33 pm
so, if you're completely butthurt about looking for random objects like a blind monkey, have no fear! Abandon this piece of fucking shit and go play something sane!
Fixed that for you.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: dood_ on April 29, 2012, 04:15:32 pm
How do i get maple leaves?

By picking them off maple trees. However, there are only two per tree and they don't regen, so they end up becoming a really valuable item. There aren't any within a 45min walk of Boston these days.

Best bet is to find someone with a lumbercamp out in the woods and offer them food or whatever in exchange for a few.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Rushmik on May 01, 2012, 09:48:42 pm
There's a livestream up @ http://www.twitch.tv/spencer_ruler

If anyone's interested I mean. He's terraforming to make a defensive fence right now.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Jacob/Lee on May 01, 2012, 10:21:52 pm
Holy hell, the shit this game has gotten from this thread alone is more than I expected.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Gauteamus on May 11, 2012, 02:14:12 pm
More than it deserves too IMO.
Anyone looking for a village?
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Fikes on May 11, 2012, 03:03:55 pm
The LP system:
I know the system gets a lot of hate here because it isn't realistic. I have played games that go both ways, IE you only skill up in the skill you do or doing any skill gives you points to spend in any other skill. They both have their merits. If you can spend your points where ever you want you have a better chance to specialize your character and help where ever is needed. If you only skill up the skills you use, helping anywhere else can be a waste of time.

Curos verses skill use:
I started HnH in world 3 and made a cooking character. No one got any LP for gathering sticks so there were never any sticks available. It was frustrating gathering them on my own because cooking didn't get you very many LP anyways. In the end I cooked little enough to keep your cupboards full and spent the rest of my time digging clay, making pots, and dropping them in the water.

In World 4 (or 5, I can't remember the first Curo world) I had no problem cooking all the time or tending the fields or getting sticks because I was getting the same amount of LP if I contributed to the village or did nothing. People were able to specialize even more and no jobs were "bad" jobs because everyone had access to the same curos and the same learning points.

Personally, I do not mind the curo system because I play these games to make a nice village and when everyone is advancing regardless of how they contribute to the village, the village just ends up that much nicer. Granted you open the door to free loading oxygen breathers who contribute nothing, but that is true regardless of the system.

It isn't a perfect system but writing it off because it is completely illogical (and any LP/EXP system is) isn't good enough.

Also calling a development company "asshats" because the closed beta of their game is lacking content and polish or because it has bugs is just silly. Especially here.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: HLBeta on May 14, 2012, 09:11:14 am
So, my beta invite just turned up today. Is there some B12-endorsed village I should check out or am I to simply wing it in the wilds?
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Rilder on May 16, 2012, 02:55:55 am
Heh looks like their stepping up beta invites, got one myself.

First impression: The graphics aren't as bad as the initial previews made them out to be, they actually look rather nice.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Rakonas on May 16, 2012, 12:18:04 pm
Also got a beta invite, worth noting that it was in my spam box for some reason. Registering now.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Ricky on May 16, 2012, 01:31:26 pm
It's worth noting that they did infact fix the faces. its much more gothic now. as if everyone in the whole world has been up for 4 days.

also, i quit playing when i found a settlement and two goons came out and killed my character. figures.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Neyvn on June 15, 2012, 11:31:16 am
Well I just got into the beta...

Anyone still playing this???
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Seriyu on July 02, 2012, 08:39:43 pm
Beta invite just turned up. Basically seems like haven and hearth with very few issues fixed.

Which isn't a huge issue as I enjoyed haven and hearth, but at the same time it's dissapointing. I'll enjoy it, sure, but I could also enjoy HnH and not worry about a cash shop.

Also the camera is horrible. Like... SO BAD. God damn.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Reyn on July 03, 2012, 05:10:42 am
As H&H, you sort of /have/ to use a custom client to have a ok go at the game. There are 2 for Salem, I believe, which are popular. The ender one, along with another one. They both fix a lot of annoying shit from the vanilla client.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Dariush on July 03, 2012, 06:05:53 am
The game isn't even in open beta and already everyone agrees that default client is utter shit. This pretty much sums up the entire game.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Girlinhat on July 03, 2012, 08:44:21 am
Everything I've ever heard about this screams at me "It's HnH again!"  And not in a good way.  Curio system requiring you to forage for trinkets.  Your starting character doesn't even know how to pull branches without curios.  Horrible camera.  Non-regenerating resources, even on trees!  Goons + permadeath.  Vanilla client is terrible.

Aside from being 3D, is there anything about this that's... new?  I mean when I last saw screenshots months ago, it even used the same fucking UI as HnH.

I think they funded the wrong game by accident.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Dariush on July 03, 2012, 09:07:04 am
Of course there is. There are piligrim hats and some... brainwashingly horrible skill progression system. Basically, you study a piece of bird shit to gain insight into meaning of the existence, and if you fill your... mental limit on the amoung of meaning of the existence, you can forget the meaning of the existence, how to gather branches, your degree in law and how to eat and increase your limit on meaning of the existence a little bit. It is... really bad.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Girlinhat on July 03, 2012, 09:16:43 am
I covered that in the curio system.  The HnH people never figured out how to do things that Wurm managed, like having skill increase with use.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on July 03, 2012, 09:24:05 am
Oh god, not that argument again. They moved away from learning by doing because it sucked, why would they go back to that?

And yes, the game is still quite feature-barren, like I told you it would be. Surprise, surprise.

The difference between Salem and H&H is in things that actually matter, such as replacing shell defence with defence in depth (which is a humongous nerf to hearth vaults, which are indubitably the #1 reason why griefing is so rampant in H&H). You need a fairly good understanding of the metagame to see these things, so yeah, of course it's going to look exactly the same as H&H if you only played both these games casually.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Girlinhat on July 03, 2012, 09:27:56 am
No, they moved away from "learning by spamming".  The old system was "for every action you do, you gain LP and you can buy knowledge."  This created botters who would simply afk while the bots clearcut whole continents and removed all the wood from the game.

Wurm's system is to give you exp in woodcutting when you fell a tree.  If you want to go around cutting down everything you can, it's possible, but it won't make you a demigod with your fists.  It'll just make you a regular lumberjack.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on July 03, 2012, 09:29:19 am
And just how hard do you think it would be to bot sparring?

Bots notwithstanding, I really don't think it's good gameplay to force me to do something I don't enjoy (ie hunting) to be a useful member of my town militia. Sure, you can argue that it's realistic for farmers and such to be a bunch of sissies that can't fight off a fluffly wambler, but can't you see how it's not good for gameplay?
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Girlinhat on July 03, 2012, 09:34:56 am
Well... there's no reason you can't be a farmer and a soldier.  Is there?
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Neyvn on July 03, 2012, 09:36:10 am
Its not Bot Spamming with this system, its Have on character you play for fun, have a second character who you Stuff full of Curo items and Food that enhances curo gains. Then LOG THEM OFF WHILE ITS TICKING OVER WITHOUT PLAYING THEM... Come back with this Overpowered character that has barely seen the world...
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Girlinhat on July 03, 2012, 09:40:44 am
I can remember a lot of HnH selling baked goods to buy curios.  My character never left the walls, but we traded enough that I maintained fairly massive skill gain.  I was a farmer + cook, but others weren't.  Some were just leeches who never played but would log in to fill their curios.

When you can log in for 2 minutes a day and get a demigod fighter character, something might be wrong.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on July 03, 2012, 09:50:07 am
Well... there's no reason you can't be a farmer and a soldier.  Is there?
In your proposed learning by doing system, yes, there very much is. Unless they make it so you have to battle carrots to harvest them.

As for getting chars to demigod status without actually playing, don't forget that it takes a shitton of playing to actually get all those curios and cheese. If you can trick some suckers into doing it for you, then congratulations, you're a good player. One of the major point of the curio system was moving some of the reward away from pure mindless time investment to actual player skill. And what is a greater measure of player skill than the ability to play other people?

All this curio talk is, of course, neither here nor there, because Salem's curios are much different from H&H curios, and this was a Salem thread last I checked. The thing that stayed the same about curios, though, is the reward for shrewd PvP (in a broad sense, ie hustling rather than direct fighting).

Alts are an issue that is *never* going to go away, and an unavoidable part of a game that has both crafting and permadeath PvP. Splitting your investment between a crafter and the fighter characters is really the only logical thing to do. It would happen in any system you can possibly devise, and yes, it did happen in the old LP system too.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Ivefan on July 03, 2012, 09:58:01 am
Well... there's no reason you can't be a farmer and a soldier.  Is there?
In your proposed learning by doing system, yes, there very much is. Unless they make it so you have to battle carrots to harvest them.
In a learn by doing system? Not a problem. While you were learning farming you probably gained strength and/or endurance as a part of the work. When you then later decide that you want to learn combat you would actually have a better base to build on.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Neyvn on July 03, 2012, 09:59:12 am
Anyone have a Beta Key they don't want, wouldn't mind a couple for a few friends...
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on July 03, 2012, 10:02:15 am
Well... there's no reason you can't be a farmer and a soldier.  Is there?
In your proposed learning by doing system, yes, there very much is. Unless they make it so you have to battle carrots to harvest them.
In a learn by doing system? Not a problem. While you were learning farming you probably gained strength and/or endurance as a part of the work. When you then later decide that you want to learn combat you would actually have a better base to build on.
Except that's going back to gaining general experience from all actions.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Siquo on July 03, 2012, 10:04:18 am
Anyone have a Beta Key they don't want, wouldn't mind a couple for a few friends...
I''ll PM you mine. I've lost all interest in this game before even playing it.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Ivefan on July 03, 2012, 10:10:45 am
Except that's going back to gaining general experience from all actions.
So fuck XP points? Girlinhat mentioned wurm's system and though i've never played it, It sounds similar to Ultima online. If you use a sword, you gain skill in using swords and nothing else.
So if you would want to be a farmer/soldier then you would simply have to spend time doing both.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Girlinhat on July 03, 2012, 10:18:37 am
Yeah, it's just whatever you want to gain exp in, you start doing that.  Want to raise farming?  Go farm stuff.  Want to raise fighting?  Go fight stuff.  So I'd log in, tend crops, get on my horse and go stab things.  There.  Farmer + soldier, easy huh?
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on July 03, 2012, 10:36:26 am
Yeah, which brings us back to my original point of being forced to hunt when I really just wanna focus on farming. It pretty much stamps out any idea of specialization of roles within a group.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Girlinhat on July 03, 2012, 10:39:32 am
...wat?  If you don't want to hunt, then don't hunt.  You'll specialize into farming.  If you're trying to say "I want to be a farmer who can also fight and defend themselves" then you're not specialized.  That's called "militia".
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on July 03, 2012, 10:45:14 am
*Every* character in a permadeath game should be able to defend itself, I thought that much was obvious.

Also, give me *one* reason, other than realism, why improving by grinding whatever it is you want to improve is a superior system to free point distribution.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Ivefan on July 03, 2012, 10:49:39 am
It pretty much stamps out any idea of specialization of roles within a group.
*Every* character in a permadeath game should be able to defend itself, I thought that much was obvious.
So... Which one do you want? everyone able to fight and do whatever or specialization?
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Girlinhat on July 03, 2012, 10:49:55 am
And you expect to just be able to defend yourself without investing time fighting?  That's what's wrong with the curio system.  You can sit inside all day and get fed curios and become a warlord without touching a single animal or even looking at a piece of armor.  It's easy to become overpowered.  And that's not a good thing.

Yes, you would be forced to hunt.  You're also forced to find food and to build shelter.  There are, in fact, certain things you need to do in the game in order to do the game!
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Criptfeind on July 03, 2012, 10:53:19 am
...wat?  If you don't want to hunt, then don't hunt.  You'll specialize into farming.  If you're trying to say "I want to be a farmer who can also fight and defend themselves" then you're not specialized.  That's called "militia".
I think he is talking about how killing bears used to be like, the best way to get exps.

I'd like to point out that I'm pretty sure the curio is even worse for this. Instead of being forced to hunt when I really just wanna focus on farming I am now forced to become a trinket maker. And I get no reward at all for farming.

I think the whole, best way to get better at anything is to kill bears might not be a issue with the system, but rather with the balancing.

Also what about half and half? When you do a action a certain percentage of the exp goes towards that skill, and the rest go into a general pool of exps to use for whatever?
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on July 03, 2012, 10:56:42 am
Well  no, not really, Girlinhat. I never touched a pick, and yet I had full steel equipment. It's called the magic of teamwork.

So... Which one do you want? everyone able to fight and do whatever or specialization?
PvP is a whole different beast. It's not really viable to have a small subset of a group specialize in it, because you can bet they're not going to be online when they're needed. And you can't really just PvP all day long, because there simply isn't that much PvP going on (nor should there be, given the permadeath conidition). It happens in short bursts between long stretches of crafting, and as such it must be something that all team member can pitch in for when the proverbial shit hits the fan.

I'd like to point out that I'm pretty sure the curio is even worse for this. Instead of being forced to hunt when I really just wanna focus on farming I am now forced to become a trinket maker. And I get no reward at all for farming.
No, you can quite simply trade your farm products for somebody else's trinkets. This liquidity is what makes the curio system so liberating. You can do *anything* you want, and as long as it's something that other people find useful you can get everything you need to advance. Even if what you want to do is something that the game could never recognize as a useful activity, for example being the town's jester.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Dariush on July 03, 2012, 11:04:45 am
DJ, did you bet someone a thousand bucks that Salem would succeed or something? Your arguments make absolutely no sense. You keep pushing your 'any skill system that MAKES FUCKING SENSE is bad because it allows bots' agenda while disregarding all opposition. You neatly skimmed over one of the best arguments expressed here:
When you can log in for 2 minutes a day and get a demigod fighter character, something might be wrong.
Because that is EXACTLY what happened in H&H and what is going to happen in Salem, because they didn't change anything.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on July 03, 2012, 11:10:05 am
Lolwut? Didn't I just go through several points of why experience liquidity is good? The bot angle was only mentioned in passing, like five points ago.

Also, you are patently wrong on getting a demigod character with 2 minutes of playtime a day. Unless there's a bug that lets you dupe curios and cheese, which AFAIK doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Girlinhat on July 03, 2012, 11:12:08 am
My overall biggest gripe is that it actively discourages you from playing.  Aside from the balance issues that you can never look at a piece of stone, and still become a legendary metalworker, there's also the issue that you're encouraged to log off.  You do some foraging, you fill your curios, and... then what?  You piddle about and do nothing for no gain?  Once you've got walls, a small farm, and a house, there's not much else to do while you're waiting on curios.  There is no way to improve your character until those curios cash in.  The game encourages you to log off and wait until they finish.

The game encourages you not to play itself!
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on July 03, 2012, 11:14:47 am
Then you are not very good at the game. At the peak of my activity I was actively playing ~6h a day (no, that does not include AFKing or just chatting, I said actively playing), and I still didn't have enough time to do half the things I needed to get done.

And where's the balance issue? I don't see one. You use a certain amount of resources, and you get a certain amount of skills. No freebies. Or do you think that Starcraft has balance issues because you can make tanks without iron?
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Ivefan on July 03, 2012, 11:50:58 am
I seems to sense a slight discrepancy in this debate. I can't speak for Girlinhat but I am just saying that a learning by doing system works, and can work well.
But DJ, you think of H&H as it is and then apply that kind of system to it?
In that i can agree that it would not work because H&H is not built for it. There is nothing to attack other than animals and that would be hunting which is quite different from killing people. So would they implement sparring to gain skill? By itself it is good, but not in H&H as it is because that would lack even the limit of curios.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: quinnr on July 03, 2012, 12:41:24 pm
Looks too cutesy for a game that's about pagan worship and murdering people.

Pass.
This. I was expecting something dark, depressing, and maybe a bit scary even.
But then I saw the picture, and was no longer interested at all. It looks like a game for little kids, not a game about killing people.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Dariush on July 03, 2012, 12:52:10 pm
This is a game for little kids. Well, or maybe for really dumb adults. I see no way how can anyone else suspend his disbelief on the 'study stones to become a demigod' matter.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on July 03, 2012, 01:57:42 pm
I really don't see how anyone can enjoy DF when goblin hair colour clashes so badly with their skin colour.

But seriously, can you at least try to veil your personal insults a little bit?
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Siquo on July 07, 2012, 04:17:27 am
Weird, they just sent me another beta key  ???

Well, it's up for grabs:
Quote
   
A kind providence hath ordained for you that you be allowed to participate in the Closed Beta Testing of Salem, the crafting MMO.

In order to embark on your journey to New-England, you have to register your Paradox Forums Account to the Salem database following this link: http://plymouth.seatribe.se/beta/register .

If you do not have a Paradox Forums Account already, please register one here: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/forum.php

You will also have to register your Beta Registration Keys:
SALM-0720-0b1d-5e2d-de92-fd22
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Reyn on July 07, 2012, 07:14:03 am
SALM-0720-0b1d-5e2d-de92-fd22

Taken. Appreciated :)
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Dariush on July 07, 2012, 09:26:09 am
SALM-0720-0b1d-5e2d-de92-fd22
Taken. Appreciated :)
You doomed yet another soul, Siquo. Hope you're happy.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Siquo on July 07, 2012, 11:57:28 am
SALM-0720-0b1d-5e2d-de92-fd22
Taken. Appreciated :)
You doomed yet another soul, Siquo. Hope you're happy.
Sorry man. Better luck next time? :)
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Neyvn on July 08, 2012, 07:10:50 pm
Anyone have another Beta Key? Another friend of mine wants to join...
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Dariush on July 09, 2012, 03:53:38 am
Anyone have another Beta Key? Another friend of mine wants to join...
He doesn't deserve this torture.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Cajoes on July 09, 2012, 11:59:11 pm
Do we have a bs12 community settlement in Salem?
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Seriyu on July 10, 2012, 01:24:10 am
As the last couple of pages have represented, even if not in the most graceful way, general B12 consensus on Salem is that it is not worth the HD space it's stored on.  :P

I didn't feel that strongly about it, but I will admit it's basically HnH 2, with very few good changes.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Sensei on July 10, 2012, 01:32:15 am
So, not having played Salem (but I did play HnH) it looks like the main points of the debate are these:

-On one side, it's reasonable to require a player to do an action in order to become good at it. This forces the players to have some diversity.
-On the other side, it's freeing to not be required to do something to become good at it. This is mainly relevant where skills might be necessary, but not entertaining to practice. This lets you do the same action all day if you wish, which is what the opponents of this side complain about.

Have I basically got it?

Then of course there's the much more ubiquitous debate:

-Players should be able to progress without playing constantly and able to compete with powergamers.
-Players should be rewarded for actually playing the game.

These are a couple issues that come up in a lot of places and obviously there's been no clear solution to.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: h3lblad3 on July 10, 2012, 03:19:10 am
As a dreamlords player, I was supposed to get a beta key, I think.
But I never knew how to get it.  :'(
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Fikes on July 10, 2012, 05:17:25 am
DJ, did you bet someone a thousand bucks that Salem would succeed or something? Your arguments make absolutely no sense. You keep pushing your 'any skill system that MAKES FUCKING SENSE is bad because it allows bots' agenda while disregarding all opposition. You neatly skimmed over one of the best arguments expressed here:
When you can log in for 2 minutes a day and get a demigod fighter character, something might be wrong.
Because that is EXACTLY what happened in H&H and what is going to happen in Salem, because they didn't change anything.

It is a fact. One of your villagers can log on 2 minutes a day and become a demigod fighter. If you are willing to  search for or build twice as many curios.

Maybe that is what you want to do while your curios are cycling or maybe that is the best thing for the village. Either way you are gaining your max LP towards what ever job you want to specialize in while contributing to the village either in the way you enjoy most or in the way most needed.

The system is actually encouraging you to play more. Done collecting all your curois? Cool, collect some for the farmer. Curio closet full? Get some sticks for the baker. Chop down trees for security. Go fishing. Do what ever it is you enjoy in the game or better yet, what ever the village needs (it always needs something). Regardless of what you do it gives the same amount of LPs.

Now all this assumes you are in a village. If you are not than... well, you are kind of playing the game wrong. It is a team game.

This also assumes you enjoy something about the game. If you don't enjoy the game than you have no pursuits while your curios cycle and you should probably just delete it anyways.

I would take a beta key. I don't really have any intention of playing right now, but I'd like to see world 2 or 3.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Minotaurus on July 23, 2012, 10:07:16 am
I would take a key too. If anyone have a key for me :)
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Cajoes on July 23, 2012, 02:32:11 pm
I can't actually wrap my head around the system... Or I can't really get myself involved in it. Every aspect of the skill training system bugs the perfectionist in me.

I'm sure other people have managed to thrive and build settlements and done all kinds of crazy things, but I am just not feeling the progress here... That little endorphin rewarding button in our heads that makes us keep coming back to Facebook games and other base trivial entertainments. Simply a Sisyphean chore which goes nowhere, it's been a week, I am -still- in a crude leanto... I can't even BUILD leantos. It was part of the free ride into the wilds package.

Whereas in HnH, starting from nothing, I have a leanto up in a few hours, a claim in a day, a small cabin and crude leatherworkiing in two days, in three days I even got a fence and have started looking for seeds.

Maybe I'm just inexperienced and have no idea what I am doing, But I can't help but feel this is not very compelling or rewarding gameplay so far. Also the client exploded for me and refuses to boot up again so there's that.



Also: 2 minutes a day? Where do you find the time to eat?
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Seriyu on July 23, 2012, 07:36:50 pm
Yeah, that's a strong point. When I started, I had a firepit up and then over the next three days litterally nothing happened with my settlement, because I was too busy farming curiosities to do anything else because I didn't have any skills or stats. The early game is basically "Find rocks, put rocks together".
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Rushmik on August 09, 2012, 01:10:15 am
I figure I can revive this thread since the server's wiped (for the last time, I hear) and there's been a few cool updates.

This game is a lot of fun for me, but only because I've played it before and know how to progress. It gives you no indication of what you should do or work towards. Only once you know what features exist do you really have any motive to play.

Anyway, last Sunday my two friends got beta keys, and we decided to give Salem a shot. I'd played it during the last beta, but the others had little-to-no experience. I will admit here that we consider Salem a way to pass the time between now and Guild Wars 2, so we are not so concerned about dying and losing our characters, or having our possessions stolen.

We each started fresh off the ship in Boston, with nothing but the clothes on our backs. We picked a rough direction to walk and set out.

We started with the goal of gaining the Swimming skill, just to make our journey easier. Scrounging inspirationals from the ground, we continued heading further and further from Boston whilst generally leveling proficiencies and skills and looking for a suitable place to settle down. I'll admit the beginning is the dullest point in the game, even if I personally enjoy searching for good locations. My friends grew tired of walking so we settled down by a river in a small maple forest. We stayed here for a few hours, getting three lean-tos built from scratch in the first and building up our foraging efficiency skills.

Salem's rate of progression is not linear. The more you progress, the faster you progress and the funner the game becomes, I find. Food is scarce until you gain Mushroom Hunting and other such skills. Digging is a chore until you raise your max Phlegm. Walking is a journey until you get Swimming. For example, one friend died before having a lean-to and found that the hour and a half walk we took to get to our location took only thirty minutes with swimming!

So we built "camp one" up for a few hours, at the same time leveling stats. Leveling stats drains black bile and working phlegm, so it's actually food-efficient to multitask. We got to the point of having a lean-to each and a nice foundation of foraging and building abilities before deciding we wanted a better location, a bigger forest to forage. Our old camp would serve as a spawn point should a rattlesnake or bear surprise us.

So the next day we gluttony'd our reserves and burnt through the inspirationals and set out once again, with more to study on the way. After a long walk we found the location we're currently at, and set up a similar camp. The other two went off foraging and I built a camp of three lean-tos, each with a nice, spacious box and everything we had made from the first camp in a quarter of the time it took all three of us to build the first camp.

Currently we are working on a cellular-styled village. Although I - now that I think about it - am doing all of the building, I'm still ahead of the others skill-wise in about the same play-time. Knowledge is power! So if you enjoy the thought of building thriving villages with friends, small-scale politics with neighbours, and settling the frontier of civilization, I recommend acquainting yourself with the wiki. If you forsake the wiki, you'll likely be doomed to combining rocks into crappy inspirationals for all time.

And let's be honest, if you play Dwarf Fortress you shouldn't mind keeping wikis close to hand. ;)
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: at10ti0n on August 09, 2012, 08:55:12 am
any way to get an invite to this? sounds intresting :)
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Azkanan on August 09, 2012, 09:13:32 am
Still prefer Haven and Hearth. If they hadn't of accepted this stupid Paradox contract, they would be rolling in so much more cash and prestige right now. Stupid Jorbtar.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Rilder on August 29, 2012, 02:44:06 pm
I'm not sure what your on about as far as Paradox goes, Paradox is probably one of the better publishers for a dev team to have.

Anyways, been playing lately, took the free-wilderness transfer and been wandering around where it threw me. Pretty interesting, though snakes are assholes who will chase you to the ends of the earth if you catch agro. :(
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on August 29, 2012, 03:57:50 pm
You're faster than snakes. Just get enough distance to have time to climb a cliff, and they won't be able to follow you (provided it's not a short cliff they can just go around). Oh, and when you get ~20 yellow bile you can one shot them with bull rush, and the revenge feels awesome.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: dei on August 29, 2012, 05:26:08 pm
Reading about this game that my computer is unable to play makes me want to get back into Haven and Hearth or Dwarf Fortress. I thank you all for that. Maybe someday when I have the money to get a better computer I can try Salem as well, seeing as it sounds like a great deal of Fun.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Dariush on August 30, 2012, 03:01:57 am
Reading about this game that my computer is unable to play makes me want to get back into Haven and Hearth or Dwarf Fortress. I thank you all for that. Maybe someday when I have the money to get a better computer I can try Salem as well, seeing as it sounds like a great deal of Fun.
Your computer can run DF but not Salem?

What has this world come to.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on August 30, 2012, 05:56:50 am
Games that are GPU heavy instead of CPU heavy? Well colour me surprised.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: evilcherry on November 07, 2012, 04:08:21 am
Digging this up, anyone got free keys?
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: hemmingjay on November 07, 2012, 08:05:27 am
in a couple of days they are letting in another huge batch of players who sign up on their site.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Siquo on November 07, 2012, 02:14:22 pm
Yep. I just received a new key again. PM me if you want it.

Edit: And it's gone.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: hemmingjay on November 07, 2012, 07:13:59 pm
and here is one Your key is: SALM-a69d-70ce-7e15-c266-dd04

MMORPG is giving them out @ http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/582/view/news/read/26002/Salem-Beta-Key-Giveaway.html  but that site is the biggest pile of sub-human crap I have ever witnessed. Makes 4chan look like Mother Theresa
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Aklyon on November 07, 2012, 07:32:06 pm
and here is one Your key is: SALM-a69d-70ce-7e15-c266-dd04

MMORPG is giving them out @ http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/582/view/news/read/26002/Salem-Beta-Key-Giveaway.html  but that site is the biggest pile of sub-human crap I have ever witnessed. Makes 4chan look like Mother Theresa
Which part of 4chan?
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Intrinsic on November 10, 2012, 10:26:38 am
7.5k keys left. This looks quite an interesting game, so i'll give it a shot.

http://www.mmorpg.com/giveaways.cfm/offer/388/Salem-Beta-Key-Giveaway.html

Edit: The current ingame community seems very rude to new players. Just spamming calling anyone who hasn't played before noobs(they neglect to remember that they were noobs once too) Maybe i just picked a bad place to land, i'm in plymoth atm. Very rude and unhelpful people like this will just put off potential players and income for the Salem devs.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: DJ on November 10, 2012, 11:08:32 am
They're also releasing 200 key every 12 hours on the official site (http://beta.salemthegame.com/).
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Fikes on November 15, 2012, 01:35:56 pm
So... I snagged one of the keys. I really should have done a blind let's play because I am sure it would have been indicative of the the first 3 hours anyone spends in game and it was full of "game trolls you moments".

Anyways, I left Boston and my goal was to find maple leaves and Autumn grass. I saw hundreds of what appeared to be maple trees, but when I right clicked on them I didn't get the option to get a leaf. Now, I've played HnH so I understand that trees can run out of leaves. Logic/graphics aside, this is no big deal. The problem is there is no indication if this is the correct kind of tree and out of leaves, the correct tree and I lack skills, or the incorrect type of tree entirely. I also saw a few clumps of grass...... all inaccessible on small slopes. FUUUUUUUUU. When I finally found everything I needed the Tutorial suggested I fast travel back to Boston... which wasn't possible because I didn't have a homestead (getting one is the NEXT step of the tutorial)

These interface/confusion issues continued. Fatigue, for instance, is handled by 4 humors. Each humor has a bar. Mouse over any of the bars and you get a tool tip listing the values for all the bars. This doesn't tell you anything about the convoluted system.

Anyways, not that any of this is bad for an alpha. Bad tutorials and bad interfaces can be fixed.

My main issue with the game, so far, is some of the systems that have changed between HnH and Salem. The humor system, for instance, is so much worse than than the stat system of HnH. Simply put, now you have 4 stats and those stats are consumed by doing specific tasks. They recharge by eating. When you are full you can over eat to increase the stats.

Again, logic aside, the system just isn't a great one for a game. It isn't displayed well and it isn't intuitive. The stats don't logically relate to anything. What the hell is black blood? How do I increase my black blood? Do I need to? WHY IS THE BAR GREEN!? It all takes reading and digging into the game.

Another bad system change is the fast travel one. Unless I am missing something you can no longer fast travel with anything in your inventory. You can't just wander off, collect curos or food, teleport back, and drink your self happy again. Why not?

Finally, the field of view does not work for a 3d game. It is so frustrating to walk for 30 seconds only to realize this path is a dead end.

Some of the changes I do like is that death from non players isn't perma death any more. You lose stats and that is no fun, but you get to keep your character and home.

I also like the homestead situation. It may have been dumb luck, but I needed up in a pretty quiet area.

Overall I think the same things that were enjoyable in HnH will be fun here, but it does not seem like they have addressed some of the most basic issues. Then again, it is still in Alpha.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Seriyu on April 03, 2013, 05:59:17 pm
Reviving this thread to say, a lot of stuff has changed, it's in open beta, anyone given it another shot?

I have, a lot of the issues seem to have been resolved (although it's still a little shabby around the edges). Notably the humor system now gives you a preview of what each food will give you when you gluttony eat it, which is a huge step up. Leaves respawn very randomly on trees, the combat system is..... still very clunky although as a nice thing to say about it, it's much easier to get into then HnH. From what I hear farming is tons better then in HnH? IE it's more then "take best quality seeds, plant, complain about low quality soil". There are more inspirationals, making some of those harder to get skills a bit easier. It's definitely improved rather significantly in my eyes.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: hemmingjay on June 15, 2013, 02:35:39 pm
Reviving this thread to say, things don't look great. Paradox is dropping it and letting the two man dev team take it and operate it on their own without any help or $ from paradox. I wish I could be more optimistic, but nothing about this game has turned out well. http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/06/15/paradox-interactive-drops-salem-seatribe-to-continue-developmen/
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: burningpet on June 15, 2013, 02:40:35 pm
Interesting. i guess its a rare thing that a publisher just let the developer keep the IP and any future revenue (i presume).
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: nenjin on June 15, 2013, 02:42:31 pm
Which means they don't see any potential revenue in keeping the IP. They probably don't want the backlash, however small, from shutting the game down. So the lowest cost solution is to just let the whole thing go.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Seriyu on June 15, 2013, 05:38:22 pm
I don't think they let it go, at least in that way actually, it's just like paradox will not be involved in development anymore, it's still running the cash shop through it and presumably still funding it? I dunno for sure, everything is very odd. I know for a fact they're still running a cash shop through it, but I dunno if they're still funding it. I would think they would be if the cash shop is still active.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: hemmingjay on June 15, 2013, 06:20:55 pm
I don't think they let it go, at least in that way actually, it's just like paradox will not be involved in development anymore, it's still running the cash shop through it and presumably still funding it? I dunno for sure, everything is very odd. I know for a fact they're still running a cash shop through it, but I dunno if they're still funding it. I would think they would be if the cash shop is still active.

My understanding is that in 10 days or so they will have ZERO involvement. I don't see why the cash shop would still exits through them when they are not publishing, hosting, developing or offering support for it. It is an odd situation and I am sure the team of 2 devs will let us all know soon.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: casserol on June 16, 2013, 10:07:08 am
very nice idea and all but i don't understand why they made the skill system so heavy and complex. i tried it for a couple hours but was discouraged by the obligatory grinding that was impossible to understand without the wiki and apparently amounted to dozens of hours(according to the same wiki) before you were "able" to actually play.

especially considering the inclusion of permadeath. grinding is bad enough on its own, but coupled with permadeath it just makes no sense. permadeath'd games shouldn't force you to hours of grinding when you can lose them in minutes.
Title: Re: Salem: paradoxe's new free to play MMORPG.
Post by: Seriyu on June 16, 2013, 01:56:00 pm
Honestly I think the kind've.... horrid graphical style killed it for me more then anything. It's just not nice to look at, which is a big deal for an exploraton based game. The darkness seemed okay but it's also miles away and hard to get into. ALso there's not really a lot of neat things to find.