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[Frumple]

Is it just me or is protesting a few cents worth of tax kinda silly

Just you, probably. A few cents several dozen times stops being a few cents. Multiplied by however many thousands or millions paying it, and it becomes very much not a few cents. 'Course, it's never exactly that simple... lot depends on what the tax is being used for, who it's impacting, etc., etc. How it's being applied, too... the stuff being talked about above where shaving supplies were considered necessary but tampons not would be an example. One I can't tell how applicable was to the UK (they've had sanitary products working under necessity/zero-rate VAT since at least 2011, ferex. Possibly earlier, but I can't seem to find the 2002 notice online so can't exactly check), but eh.

... that said, it again looks a lot like the UK was shafting their electorate a fair bit all their lonesome on that front, to say nothing about whatever extent they buggered up doing anything about problem points in treating with the EU itself. EU floor for non-necessities is 15% -- UK's government bumped that to 20% for the UK itself a few years back. Don't actually know where the money goes/what it's used for, but that does say that the UK's politicians took it upon themselves to fuck their nation at least a third as much as the EU did if you consider the VAT a proper rodgering. It's a theme with this mess, really. Just about wherever the EU was doing something that could maybe be considered negative in some sense, the UK's politicians were managing to either make it worse to some degree or another or trying really hard to frame it like it was.

... honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to find out it was intentional. Lot of it kinda' looks like good ol' US conservative style of institution undermining, tbh -- get control of implementation, make it bad under your own power, and then blame the institution itself for your own fuckups. Government/EU/whatever "doesn't work" (or at least isn't perceived to) because the folks claiming it doesn't work are specifically sabotaging it so it doesn't work :V It's legit pretty insidious how effective a strategy it is, 'cause it definitely does work to turn some portion of public sentiment against the institution in question.

[Cthulhu]

I have zero problem with cultural genocide.

um, you're okay with languages and traditions being wiped out?

Yes, if it's necessary for social progress. There are far too many traditions in the world that are centered around institutionalized oppression of some selected parts of population, like women or homosexuals, and I would have no problems if these were to go away. Languages are more tricky, but I'm of opinion that there are far too many languages as it is, and the world would benefit greatly if there were less languages, since it would mean easier integration of societies.

Anyway, serious questions time. I know I'm about as anti-America as people get, but... you guys seriously tolerate American patriotism? Even the asinine "WE WON BOTH WORLD WARS EVERYONE IS IN OUR DEBT" claptrap? I... am astounded. Never have I seen people (other than Americans) who don't have a problem with the whole FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY and MILITARISM shtick.

They did win both world wars. They emerged vastly stronger after both of these conflicts, and that's what actually counts as a real victory. Furthermore, they used results on their victories to tremendously promote the causes of social, economical and technological progress. Everyone is in their debt, because most other countries would've used such victories to launch a world-wide campaign of oppression. We know that, because that's what USSR tried to do after WW2.

I don't know what you're astounded at, honestly. Americans can sometimes be annoying to deal with, yes, but that's a necessary and unavoidable side-effect of the measures that needed to be taken in order to keep a continental-sized country together and set on a course of progress. Look at South America's utter failure of a continent to see how USA could've ended, if not for American patriotism.

Progress does not exist. 

Count me among the groups thinking a strong ethnic/national identity and the vitalism that comes with it is a valuable thing to have.  What I don't get is this thing about fewer languages and shit.  I'm already a little wary of the idea of "societal integration" but suggesting languages can go away in pursuit of it just reinforces my belief that globalism also means atomization and consumerist non-culture.

Also, South America would be more like America if South Americans were more patriotic?  What?

[Frumple]

... that the last people to have living memory of black folks being lynched in the US will be dead in no more than another decade or two disagrees with that first statement, imo. Strongly.

[Sergarr]

Count me among the groups thinking a strong ethnic/national identity and the vitalism that comes with it is a valuable thing to have.

"Vitalism"? What's that, and how does having a unified civic identity, like Americans do, prevent people from having it?

What I don't get is this thing about fewer languages and shit.  I'm already a little wary of the idea of "societal integration" but suggesting languages can go away in pursuit of it just reinforces my belief that globalism also means atomization and consumerist non-culture.

I don't see how having people be able to understand each other reinforces atomization; in fact, it seems to me that it would do the exact opposite of that. As to "consumerist non-culture", I have no idea what you're talking about. Modern America, probably the most consumerist society in the world by any reasonable definition of that word, is not lacking in culture - indeed, it seems to me like it's getting more and more cultural with every passing year, thanks to Internet allowing the small sub-cultures to proliferate.

Also, South America would be more like America if South Americans were more patriotic?  What?

No, not what I meant. I've said that if USA was lacking in American patriotism, it would've ended as a bunch of separate states, a number of which would be brutal and oppressive dictatorships, and overall vastly lacking in societal, economical and technological development. In other words, it would end like South America.

[BorkBorkGoesTheCode]

given that you're currently using a USA-developed device with USA-developed programs, and send us messages through a USA-developed communication system "Internet".

Not that it's black and white, but a Welshman developed the NPL Network in England before ARPANET took on his concept of packet-switching; the Web came from CERN, in Europe; and many elements of silicon fabrication and related device development arose or were improved upon outside the US, or else its the Miles M52 vs Bell X1 thing all over again.

But it's all human development.  I'm sure we'll forget (further) all the differences when the aliens try to invade.  Again.

What aliens are you referring to?

[scriver]

As for repressing cultural identities; The ability for a people to govern themselves, the ability to make your own laws, policies, and shape your state and government, are some of the most direct and important aspects of a culture. The EU are repressing it's smaller members' identities just by existing.

Gonna have to disagree with you there. Government is only a small part of culture. Music, art, literature, language, and so on, are all vastly more important parts of a cultural group's identity than self-government.

A culture is in essence made up out of how people think and act, what they think is important, and  how they view the world and those around them. Governments, laws, music, art, literature, etc etc, are expressions of said culture. However. Art pieces are expressions of individuals within the culture (it's the viewing of art by the people which is the actual relevant part). Laws and government are a different kind of expression. They aren't just the consequence of how a culture thinks people should act, but it also in turn decide how the people can act (without punishment). If the laws that govern how a people can act is not in line with how the people think they should act, there is conflict.

For example, Swedish culture has a strong history of government transparency. Every document that enters the governing body is available to the public (apart from the super sekrit stuff). Most countries in the EU do not share our views that this is how government should be. France in particular was very vocal about how journalists were show to view incriminating information about politicians and businesses because when international agreements and deals reached Sweden, the documents automatically became public information. A few years ago the EU then made Sweden change our transparency laws to not include documents from other EU countries so they wouldn't have their shady deals uncovered. And that sucks.

American nationalism is the same as any other nationalism: ignorant of reality and painfully obnoxious.

I found this comment humorous because it is very true of your own national pride and your feelings of superiority towards Americans.

I'm quite fond of US nationalism, because, for all its downsides, it's civic nationalism rather than ethnic nationalism. It provides as strong identity anyone can claim regardless of religion, race or whatev.

As far as I can see this is just a self-indulgent myth. For what I can see it is very obvious that the "american" national identity do not include everyone. I also think American nationalism is much more intwined with racism. They say "Here anyone can be accepted as an American", but then they won't actually treat like you like an American unless you are the right kind.

[Orange Wizard]

E: 8000 new replies

Yes, if it's necessary for social progress. There are far too many traditions in the world that are centered around institutionalized oppression of some selected parts of population, like women or homosexuals, and I would have no problems if these were to go away.

I... sort of agree. 100% support not practising the oppressive bits, sure, but eeeh. I'm more in favour of preserving (or at least remembering, where practise is untenable) cultures where we can. Language, art, and myths are all valuable things and it's much more interesting to keep them around.

Languages are more tricky, but I'm of opinion that there are far too many languages as it is, and the world would benefit greatly if there were less languages, since it would mean easier integration of societies.

I dunno, English is basically lingua franca at this point anyway. Not really any need to push it harder, and my opinion on having diverse languages floating around just for the sake of it is already pretty clear.

They did win both world wars.

The Allies and USSR won both wars.

They emerged vastly stronger after both of these conflicts, and that's what actually counts as a real victory.

... unless you use a non-standard definition of "win", I guess. US emerged vastly stronger after the Great Depression, which kinda coincides with the wars if we're really generous. Aside from that it's mostly your standard economic development that happens everywhere unless they're getting blitzed.
Considering that the US is now behind countries that had masses of their population slaughtered and infrastructure annihilated, your point falls pretty flat.

Furthermore, they used results on their victories to tremendously promote the causes of social, economical and technological progress. Everyone is in their debt, because most other countries would've used such victories to launch a world-wide campaign of oppression. We know that, because that's what USSR tried to do after WW2.

That's a stupid argument. What the USSR wants is not the same as what everyone except the USA wants.

I don't know what you're astounded at, honestly.

I'm astounded at people putting up with bullshit.

Americans can sometimes be annoying to deal with, yes,

The self-awareness, it beckons

but that's a necessary and unavoidable side-effect of the measures that needed to be taken in order to keep a continental-sized country together and set on a course of progress. Look at South America's utter failure of a continent to see how USA could've ended, if not for American patriotism.

I'll bear that in mind next time Russia or Australia or China or India or Indonesia starts having problems and export some patriotism to them

[Cthulhu]

Count me among the groups thinking a strong ethnic/national identity and the vitalism that comes with it is a valuable thing to have.

"Vitalism"? What's that, and how does having a unified civic identity, like Americans do, prevent people from having it?

I didn't say it didn't.  I don't see how a civic identity is different from a cultural one.

What I don't get is this thing about fewer languages and shit.  I'm already a little wary of the idea of "societal integration" but suggesting languages can go away in pursuit of it just reinforces my belief that globalism also means atomization and consumerist non-culture.

I don't see how having people be able to understand each other reinforces atomization; in fact, it seems to me that it would do the exact opposite of that. As to "consumerist non-culture", I have no idea what you're talking about. Modern America, probably the most consumerist society in the world by any reasonable definition of that word, is not lacking in culture - indeed, it seems to me like it's getting more and more cultural with every passing year, thanks to Internet allowing the small sub-cultures to proliferate.

You're clearly willing to destroy culture in pursuit of it, since you said exactly that. 

Also, South America would be more like America if South Americans were more patriotic?  What?

No, not what I meant. I've said that if USA was lacking in American patriotism, it would've ended as a bunch of separate states, a number of which would be brutal and oppressive dictatorships, and overall vastly lacking in societal, economical and technological development. In other words, it would end like South America.
[/quote]

I'm not sure that's true.  It's not like the US has always had a strong pan-American identity, the bicameral legislation is an artifact of state power-jockeying and if you remember at one point half of the states decided to leave. Many people in those states still identify with the south or with their own states.

... that the last people to have living memory of black folks being lynched in the US will be dead in no more than another decade or two disagrees with that first statement, imo. Strongly.

Is that progress or movement? 

[Starver]

What aliens are you referring to?

Oh no you don't... You're not catching me out, again, with your mind probes and... other probes!

[palsch]

... that said, it again looks a lot like the UK was shafting their electorate a fair bit all their lonesome on that front, to say nothing about whatever extent they buggered up doing anything about problem points in treating with the EU itself. EU floor for non-necessities is 15% -- UK's government bumped that to 20% for the UK itself a few years back. Don't actually know where the money goes/what it's used for, but that does say that the UK's politicians took it upon themselves to fuck their nation at least a third as much as the EU did if you consider the VAT a proper rodgering.

VAT in the UK for years was 17.5%. After the 2008 crash it was dropped to 15% temporarily for one year as a stimulus measure (get people and businesses spending money). Then in 2011 the coalition raised it to 20% as part of Osborne's first emergency budget. VAT is treated as general taxation and not ring-fenced in the UK, so it goes the same places as income or corporation taxes.

And just as a correction to my earlier post, tampons were under the 5% reduced rate and the February deal that Cameron got from the EU would have made them exempt.

[BorkBorkGoesTheCode]

What aliens are you referring to?

Oh no you don't... You're not catching me out, again, with your mind probes and... other probes!

You're not my species.

[Frumple]

Is that progress or movement?

... it's progress. Movement to the positive is progress. If you're going to say less of my fellow countrymen being murdered by mobs primarily because of their skin color isn't positive, then I... probably don't have anything left to say that wouldn't involve vulgarity. Not really the thread for it, anyway.

VAT in the UK for years was 17.5%. After the 2008 crash it was dropped to 15% temporarily for one year as a stimulus measure (get people and businesses spending money). Then in 2011 the coalition raised it to 20% as part of Osborne's first emergency budget.

How'd that work out? Though I guess screwing your country over by a sixth is better than a third? Again assuming the VAT is/was actually screwing the country over. Not sure I'd agree with that assumption, m'self, but it seems to be the one folks railing about the thing are making.

[Neonivek]

So Brexit, what do you have in store for us today?

[Radio Controlled]

So Brexit, what do you have in store for us today?

Spoiler alert: nothing good.

Anyways, I could try to do another news round-up tonight if you want. Not now, work break's almost over, but if people are actually reading these/helped by it I wouldn't mind doing it from time to time.

[Starver]

Spoiler alert: nothing good.

Indirect, fallout-related, Osborne has nixed his plans to 'solve' the UK economy by 2020, which everyone was so sure(!)  would have come true.

It's was going to be some excuse, of course, but this is a humdinger of one, so why not use it?

No, no. That's quite unfair. It needs to made absolutely clear that Osbourne's continual stream of budgets (traditional annual ones, ones linked to the autumn statement, other emergency ones as required) would have magically paid off by strangling the country to reverse the losses incurred due to the incompetance of the previous electoral cycle the cycle before last.   And he would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for you darn nosy kids elderly voters!!