Topic: Ok so one of my dwarves claimed a masterwork adamantine cloak (Read 2951 times)

TheFreshPrince · « **on:** October 01, 2014, 11:22:00 pm »

Despite the fact I have it assigned to another dwarf in the military equipment screen. I promptly drafted the presumptuous metalsmith who claimed and is wearing the cloak into his own squad and sent him to get stepped on by some local wildlife. He ran off to the hospital after losing his foot, at which point I promptly locked the door behind him and waited for his ass to starve.

His cloak however was immediately claimed (owned) by another random dwarf, how the heck can I get this cloak to the dwarf it is assigned to?

slothen · « **Reply #1 on:** October 02, 2014, 12:10:02 am »

make a ton of regular cloaks so your dwarves all have fresh cloaks then no one will claim the adamantine one. Forbidding it will also prevent dwarves from claiming it. Also DF hack should have something to clear the owner.

Lich180 · « **Reply #2 on:** October 03, 2014, 06:27:14 am »

Dwarves want to claim the most expensive and shiny thing they can for themselves, going by the value of the item.

Psieye · « **Reply #3 on:** October 03, 2014, 06:35:10 am »

Back in DF2010, they had to path to the item to claim it and they only do so when idle. A lot of savescumming was involved to get one extremely decorated sock to my chosen dwarf - that was after sealing off the artisan in an air-tight vault with all the materials. Had to micromanage that artisan so he never had a moment of being jobless.

I assume that code hasn't changed since then.

SimRobert2001 · « **Reply #4 on:** October 03, 2014, 06:38:08 am »

Can't you assign a specific item to a dwarf in the military?

Quietust · « **Reply #5 on:** October 03, 2014, 07:27:11 am »

Quote from: SimRobert2001 on October 03, 2014, 06:38:08 am

Can't you assign a specific item to a dwarf in the military?

Not if it's been claimed as a possession by another dwarf in the meanwhile.

Pirate Bob · « **Reply #6 on:** October 03, 2014, 09:22:25 am »

The real answer to your question is to not bother with adamantine clothing. It is no better than leather (or if it is better, only marginally so). See this fantastic thread for details. In summary, all cloth items get capped with "shear yield at 20000 and shear fracture at 30000", which is about the same as leather. These numbers determine how well they protect against edged attacks, and the result is pretty much not at all. They also have strain set at 50000, which means that blunt attacks are passed right through, with no protection at all.

Adamantine makes by far the best plate armor and edged weapons. Use it for that. The only reason to use it for clothes is if you want really valuable clothes. It serves no defensive purpose. Once upon a time it did, but a couple versions back Toady added the cap to cloth items mentioned above.

As a side note, it is not that useful to make adamantine chain mail, unless you want really light chain mail or expect to encounter creatures with edged weapons made from slade, admantine, or the new divine metals. Chain mail converts edged attacks to blunt so long as its shear yield or shear fracture is equal to or greater than the attacking weapon's, so steel (or even iron) will work just fine for pretty much anything you will encounter without modding.

In short, make a bunch of leather or cloth cloaks, and let the bugger who grabbed the adamantine one keep it and think he looks really pretty. Or just don't bother with cloaks at all. I'm not sure if they provide any useful protection - maybe against scratches or bites, but definitely not any weapons.

Button · « **Reply #7 on:** October 03, 2014, 10:00:57 am »

Quote from: Pirate Bob on October 03, 2014, 09:22:25 am

The real answer to your question is to not bother with adamantine clothing. It is no better than leather (or if it is better, only marginally so). See this fantastic thread for details. In summary, all cloth items get capped with "shear yield at 20000 and shear fracture at 30000", which is about the same as leather. These numbers determine how well they protect against edged attacks, and the result is pretty much not at all.

Quote from: Urist da Vinci

STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_WOVEN_THREAD also caps the shear yield at 20000 and shear fracture at 30000. This means that a wooden sword can cut through an adamantine cloak. This was presumably done to prevent silk clothing from protecting against animal bites and so on.

I think this science is out of date. Cloth protects against edged attacks pretty well now - excessively well, IMO. I loaded up the arena and pit a dog against an untrained dwarf clad in only pig tail clothing. Here are the edged attacks the dog used against the dwarf:

Quote from: Examples from my arena test log

Dog 1 scratches Dwarf 1 in the left foot, bruising the muscle through the small pig tail fiber shoe!
Dog 1 bites Dwarf 1 in the left upper arm, bruising the skin through the small pig tail fiber robe!
Dog 1 bites Dwarf 1 in the chest, bruising the fat through the small pig tail fiber cloak!
Dog 1 bites Dwarf 1 in the left calf, bruising the muscle through the small long pig tail fiber skirt!
Dog 1 bites Dwarf 1 in the left forearm, bruising the fat through the small pig tail fiber robe!
Dog 1 bites Dwarf 1 in the abdomen, bruising the muscle and bruising the pancreas through the small long pig tail fiber skirt!
Dog 1 bites Dwarf 1 in the left forearm, bruising the skin through the small pig tail fiber robe!
Dog 1 scratches Dwarf 1 in the chest, bruising the fat through the small pig tail fiber cloak!
Dog 1 bites Dwarf 1 in the chest, bruising the fat through the small pig tail fiber cloak!

As you can see, not one edged attack made it through the pig tail fiber clothing.

EDIT TO ADD:

The above test was done with a mod which included some clothing tweaks. I've loaded up the default raws to repeat this test.

I am also reducing the amount of clothing I give my test dwarves to the minimum required to provide full coverage.

1 pig tail fiber robe
1 pig tail fiber hood
2 pig tail fiber mittens
2 pig tail fiber shoes
1 pig tail fiber long skirt

I repeated the scenario of a dwarf against a dog, and then vs a tiger and then a giant tiger:

Spoiler: dog results (click to show/hide)

Verdict: 0/(ridiculous) head shots ended in penetration events. The dwarf eventually died from all the shaking (omitted for space).

Because the first dog got a lucky head shot in early on and the dwarf was unconscious after that, here's another dog test.

Spoiler: dog 2 (click to show/hide)

Verdict: 1 hand-directed penetration, 1 foot-directed penetration, and 1 limb-directed bruising.

Spoiler: dog 3 (click to show/hide)

Verdict: 1 hand-directed penetration, 1 limb-directed bruising, 1 digit-directed bruising.

Mass testing will be needed to confirm, but it looks like cloth is more useful than you might think.

Spoiler: tiger 1 results (click to show/hide)

Very interesting. Of 4 penetration events, 3 were to hands and feet, and one was to the head. All hand, feet & head attacks caused tearing; all other attacks caused bruising.

Spoiler: giant tiger results (click to show/hide)

Even with the Giant Tiger we see that blows to the hands, feet and head result in penetration, while blows to the limbs do not.

Spoiler: Giant Tiger 2 (click to show/hide)

Here for the first time we see a digit blow and a limb attack with accompanying tearing, although a second digit attack causes only bruising. As before, all attacks to the hands, feet, and head penetrate, and all attacks to the body cause only bruising.

Pirate Bob · « **Reply #8 on:** October 03, 2014, 12:08:42 pm »

I suspect that the dog bites were ineffective due to not having enough penetration depth to get through the clothing. Tooth has [SHEAR_YIELD:115000] and [SHEAR_FRACTURE:130000], so it should be able to cut through fabric. Also, if it had not been able to cut through, it would have deflected, not caused bruising. Elsewhere in the thread I linked above it explains that if an edged attack does not have enough penetration depth to get through a layer, then its momentum continues on doing blunt damage - hence the bruising you observe.

I believe the science I mentioned is totally fine. Try it with a wooden sword, and you will see that it cuts through an adamantine cloak. The cloak will also not provide good protection against bites from medium to large (and hence actually dangerous) creatures. Dwarf fortress dogs are rather small, and hence the penetration depth of their bites is low.

Also, I did indicate in my previous post that I wasn't sure if cloaks etc would protect against bites or scratches. I am not sure how to directly determine the penetration depth or force of a creature's bite or scratch. Since clothing can protect against some bites, it might be beneficial to layer as much clothing as possible, as I think the penetration depth required to pierce multiple layers of clothing stacks (unlike the momentum required to pierce multiple armor layers, which only increases by 10% for each identical layer). This is certainly the conventional wisdom, but I don't know if that's based on what happens currently, something that happened in a previous version, or just what people think should happen.

Edit - I didn't see your edit while I was writing - apparently a cloak is still good protection against larger creature bites. As I stated I have no idea how to calculate penetration depth for bite/claw attacks, but I think it must be small. Urist da Vinci indicated that the reason Toady changed the behavior of cloth was that he didn't like bites deflecting off silk etc. Maybe he decided that doing only bruises is fine - just don't want to see deflection off cloth items?

Regardless, unless shown very convincing evidence otherwise, I will stand by the statement that cloth will provide no protection against edged attacks except when they don't have enough penetration depth to pierce the cloth. If you want to test this, you could take a wooden (or your favorite crappy weapon material) sword (note, use a regular sword, NOT a training sword) and decrease the penetration depth until you see it doesn't go through clothes any more. I think the change should occur somewhere around 10-20, but I'm not sure. 10-20 is the layer thickness of clothes, but I don't know if penetration depth uses the same units. Also, clothing thickness scales with the size of the creature (and possibly also body parts, which might be why you first see penetration on the hands/fingers). The easiest way to do this would be to give a sword multiple attacks with difference penetration depth, like so:

Code: [Select]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SWORD_SHORT]
[NAME:short sword:short swords]
[SIZE:300]
[SKILL:SWORD]
[TWO_HANDED:37500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:32500]
[CAN_STONE]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:EDGE:50:2000:stab2000:stabs2000:NO_SUB:1000]
	[ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]
[ATTACK:EDGE:50:1000:stab1000:stabs1000:NO_SUB:1000]
	[ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]
[ATTACK:EDGE:50:500:stab500:stabs500:NO_SUB:1000]
	[ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]
[ATTACK:EDGE:50:200:stab200:stabs200:NO_SUB:1000]
	[ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]
[ATTACK:EDGE:50:100:stab100:stabs100:NO_SUB:1000]
	[ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]
[ATTACK:EDGE:50:50:stab50:stabs50:NO_SUB:1000]
	[ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]
[ATTACK:EDGE:50:20:stab20:stabs20:NO_SUB:1000]
	[ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]
[ATTACK:EDGE:50:10:stab10:stabs10:NO_SUB:1000]
	[ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]
[ATTACK:EDGE:50:5:stab5:stabs5:NO_SUB:1000]
	[ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]

You can then assume control of a create and go around trying the different attacks, or just let things occur randomly and look at the logs (since the attacks have different names, you can see which was used).

Edit #2: The much easier way would be to ask Urist da Vinci, or someone else who knows how clothing layer thickness (and probably tooth/nail size) scale with creature size. I am guessing he could tell you exactly what will happen. But testing is fun, so go nuts if you want.

SimRobert2001 · « **Reply #9 on:** October 04, 2014, 08:11:55 am »

Quote from: Quietust on October 03, 2014, 07:27:11 am

Quote from: SimRobert2001 on October 03, 2014, 06:38:08 am
Can't you assign a specific item to a dwarf in the military?
Not if it's been claimed as a possession by another dwarf in the meanwhile.

So, then wouldn't the answer be Forbid item ->watch dwarf drop it -> pause -> reclaim item ->assign to military?

Larix · « **Reply #10 on:** October 04, 2014, 10:31:59 am »

Dwarfs don't drop worn items just because they're forbidden. To force a dwarf to remove a worn item, you usually have to draft them to the military and give them a clothing-replacing uniform that doesn't allow the item in question.
Or DFHack, i guess.

Dwarfs will also keep ownership of not-worn forbidden items for about a week.

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Author Topic: Ok so one of my dwarves claimed a masterwork adamantine cloak (Read 2951 times)

TheFreshPrince

Ok so one of my dwarves claimed a masterwork adamantine cloak

slothen

Re: Ok so one of my dwarves claimed a masterwork adamantine cloak

Lich180

Re: Ok so one of my dwarves claimed a masterwork adamantine cloak

Psieye

Re: Ok so one of my dwarves claimed a masterwork adamantine cloak

SimRobert2001

Re: Ok so one of my dwarves claimed a masterwork adamantine cloak

Quietust

Re: Ok so one of my dwarves claimed a masterwork adamantine cloak

Pirate Bob

Re: Ok so one of my dwarves claimed a masterwork adamantine cloak

Button

Re: Ok so one of my dwarves claimed a masterwork adamantine cloak

Pirate Bob

Re: Ok so one of my dwarves claimed a masterwork adamantine cloak

SimRobert2001

Re: Ok so one of my dwarves claimed a masterwork adamantine cloak

Larix

Re: Ok so one of my dwarves claimed a masterwork adamantine cloak