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[RedKing]

Yeah, I don't see any more point to this argument. GlyphGryph, ChairmanPoo and me are on one side of the divide, kaijyuu and leafsnail are on the other, and I don't think anyone is going to be convinced to cross that bridge. I don't see it as a "we're right, you're wrong" problem so much as a "this is what we feel is morally justified, that is what you feel is morally justified".

I will say this though: my wife surprised me a couple of years ago when we were discussing the kids and instead of taking the "We should teach them that fighting doesn't solve anything" position, she said to me, "I wish I had gotten in more fights as a kid rather than let people make me a victim." We've agreed that while we don't want the kids to turn to fighting as the *first* solution, we also don't want them to be afraid to go to the mat if they're in the right. Especially when it comes to defending each other. If my daughter sees a kid bullying her kid brother, I want her to have the self-confidence to go up and tell him to piss off (in more kid-appropriate language), and to be willing to intervene if necessary. When they're in high school together, if he sees some oversexed jock groping his sister, I want him to walk right up and knock the guy into next Tuesday. Violence doesn't solve everything, or even most things. But it's wrong to say it doesn't solve anything.

[scriver]

...You want her to beat up another kid but not to use the word "piss" at them. Man, are your priorities ever so fucked up.

[Reelya]

Man, that was uncalled for, RedKing only said he want's his kids to have the confidence to defend each other from attacks. Saying "You want her to beat up another kid" is a total straw man here.

It's clear to me from my own childhood, you don't defend yourself, you WILL be the victim of bullies. Teachers, parents or other authority figures are/were totally useless in avoiding getting beat up.

I'd rather get in a fight than watch my sisters get beat up or molested, you can think less of me if you like.

[Blargityblarg]

Man, that was uncalled for, RedKing only said he want's his kids to have the confidence to defend each other from attacks. Saying "You want her to beat up another kid" is a total straw man here.

It's clear to me from my own childhood, you don't defend yourself, you WILL be the victim of bullies. Teachers, parents or other authority figures are/were totally useless in avoiding getting beat up.

I'd rather get in a fight than watch my sisters get beat up or molested, you can think less of me if you like.

I'd like to point out here that no, it's not an inevitable case of 'defend yourself or be bullied'. I didn't have much to do with bullies at all throughout my childhood, which shows that this is at least not universal..

I think it's more cultural; the (mostly) American proactive defence guys live in a society where you can rely more on someone who's broken into your home to put more at stake in their being in your home, whereas those of us in (most of) Europe and Australia are more likely to have any potential burglars run away. It seems there's a system of aggression of burglars matching aggression of burglees, though it's a chicken and egg problem as to which influences which.

[RedKing]

...You want her to beat up another kid but not to use the word "piss" at them. Man, are your priorities ever so fucked up.

If said "kid" is bullying her younger brother, then yes, I want her to sock him in the eye, kick him in the balls, whatever it takes to deter him. She's a tiny thing, so in all likelihood it'll be verbal defense rather than physical. But I want her to have the confidence and the familial bond to be there for him. My wife has a younger sister and an older brother, and she deeply regrets that when her siblings were picked on, she didn't come to their defense. And when she was picked on, they didn't come to her defense.

We've stigmatized fighting in school such that upper-tier kids are mortified to get in a fight, while the bottom-feeders (yeah, I know, not exactly a progressive term but that's how I'd classify the ones that don't want to be there, make no attempt to learn and just disrupt things for everyone else) revel in it. I want my kids to know that even though the school might, we're not going to punish them *IF* they have just cause for their actions.

I'm struck by the absurdity of introducing a "just war" doctrine in schoolchildren, but it is what it is.

[Reelya]

Man, that was uncalled for, RedKing only said he want's his kids to have the confidence to defend each other from attacks. Saying "You want her to beat up another kid" is a total straw man here.

It's clear to me from my own childhood, you don't defend yourself, you WILL be the victim of bullies. Teachers, parents or other authority figures are/were totally useless in avoiding getting beat up.

I'd rather get in a fight than watch my sisters get beat up or molested, you can think less of me if you like.

I'd like to point out here that no, it's not an inevitable case of 'defend yourself or be bullied'. I didn't have much to do with bullies at all throughout my childhood, which shows that this is at least not universal..

That's a tautology, because, if you're not being bullied, you have no reason to defend yourself, hence no reason to fight. It doesn't change the fact that there are times some people have to legitimately defend themselves.

The fact that you have little direct experience of bullies makes your opinion on the matter sort of pointless. Not trying to be rude, but unless you've been in a situation you can't really moralize on correct behavior for people confronted by that situation every day.

"Just Ignore Them" was what I tried, and violence against myself only escalated. Anyone I ever had a fight with, left me alone afterwards.

[GlyphGryph]

Again, since no one has responded, Blarg, Leafsnail:
Do you think it is okay to fight back if someone is trying to rape you? With lethal force?

I'll be honest, so far the entirety of at least Leafsnail's argument is that people should value others life over their own, or at least that people should completely re-order their value system. Essentially - that he knows what other people should see as important, and what they actually see as important matters jack shit to the equation. So fine - but I'm interested in seeing how far your dedication to this strict "my life is most important thing, attackers life is second most important thing" ideal holds.

[scriver]

It's not a straw man, it's what "defend her brother" and "willing to intervene" means. It's literally what RedKing said. Hence the ridiculousness of him minding her language in that situation where she is about to lay the beatdown on some other kid. Or does getting into a fight suddenly not mean beating somebody up when it's someone in your monkeysphere that does it?

And this isn't even about what I would or would not do - morals doesn't work that way. I would probably get scared and attack an intruder as well, and definitely back my brother up in a fight, but that doesn't make it right. Morality is not defined by what I (or anyone else) could or would do in a situation. Just that I would do something doesn't make it moral, morality does not center around my actions. I have the maturity to realise this, and I am disappointed that people who I respect and are older to me does not.

3 replies were posted while I wrote this.

Preedit: Having been bullied does not give your opinion any weight whatsoever either, Reelya. Your experience alone, and especially your recollection of it, is purely anecdotal. Not trying to be rude, but having a very emotionally upsetting experience doesn't exactly make you able to look at related issues with an unbiased mind either.

Another post: @Glyph - Nobody in this post has ever said you shouldn't defend yourself if you're attacked. The difference is that RedKing, MSH and the others thinks it's okay to attack before signs of aggression and threat is even known or shown. That's what the discussion have been about.

[Reelya]

It's 100% straw man when you deleted ALL context and changed it to "beat some kid up". You can't backpedal and add context NOW for a statement you made BEFORE. This was your entire summation of RedKings argument which i labelled as a straw-man:

...You want her to beat up another kid but not to use the word "piss" at them. Man, are your priorities ever so fucked up.

"defend her brother" = "beat some kid up" ?? In what universe?

"Beat [...] up" implied she's instigated aggression against someone who was not involved in any aggression to start with, something one-sided. Rather than a fight, in which both parties are fighting. Getting beat up implies being unable to defend oneself.

"Intervene" here means to scare the kid who's beating up the younger brother. Is scaring someone off the same as beating them up? RedKing did say that she should verbally tell him off first.

"Some kid" implies it's against a random person who was minding their own business.

[Sheb]

Scriver, I'm totally standing with RedKing here. It's not about turning his daughter into a fighting machine, it's about giving her enough self-confidence that she'll be ready to use violence as a last resort. And I don't think he'd mind if his daughter was to use the f-word against his son's bullies.

[MonkeyHead]

RedKings argument is one where the use of force is proportional to the threat faced, and as a result IMHO more than appropriate.

[Bauglir]

I'll be honest, so far the entirety of at least Leafsnail's argument is that people should value others life over their own, or at least that people should completely re-order their value system.

Seems to be that they should value others' lives over their own property, actually, and that making a jump from "My property is in danger" to "I, and/or my loved ones, am/are in danger" is unjustified.

[RedKing]

"Just Ignore Them" was what I tried, and violence against myself only escalated. Anyone I ever had a fight with, left me alone afterwards.

Ditto. I got left alone for years after an incident in 6th grade where I went completely over-the-top, psycho, HULK SMASH on a group of people.

One good win is all you need to earn some breathing room in the snakepit that is the schoolyard hierarchy. For one thing, it becomes this weird prestige deterrent. If you're a puny nerd, and you actually beat somebody in a fight, not only do you gain respect, but the person who lost becomes the new omega for his pack ("you lost to THAT guy? hahaha you suck"). Once you've demonstrated the potential to beat somebody, it's no longer worth the risk for most bullies, because the prestige gain for beating you up would still be rather minimal, but the loss if they lose would be substantial. As long as you don't force a confrontation by directly challenging them, you can get by without much incident. BUT...if you've never shown any fight at all in you (and have no allies), you're an easy target. Bread and butter for prestige gain via daily harassment.

Buddy of mine had the best win: guy challenged him to a fight in the parking lot, thinking it was an easy win. During the fight, his wallet fell out of his pocket, and because he assumed my buddy was no threat, he bent over to pick it up. Buddy grabbed him around the waist and backpedalled hard, driving the guy's head into the tailgate of a pickup truck. Fight over, TKO. Harassment of him dropped off vastly for the remainder of high school. (and the other guy became the new "bitch" of that particular clique of prep-jocks).

I dunno...maybe this is why America is the way it is. We learn early on that you have to fight to be left alone.

Another post: @Glyph - Nobody in this post has ever said you shouldn't defend yourself if you're attacked. The difference is that RedKing, MSH and the others thinks it's okay to attack before signs of aggression and threat is even known or shown. That's what the discussion have been about.

scriver, you're a bro and all but dude...I don't think we've ever said that. Ever. "holding family at knifepoint" was one of the scenarios discussed earlier. Even if no actual bodily harm has occurred, I think I'd qualify "at knifepoint" as aggression and threat. The possible grey area would be "has broken into your house, but not actually confronted you". I think our position is that breaking and entering, as a voluntary choice to intrude illegally on another's property, *does* constitute a threat in and of itself. People don't break and enter to leave you gifts or get interior decorating tips. They do it to harm your person and/or steal your property. Both of which constitute aggression in my book.

What we were catching hell over was the idea that we wouldn't necessarily break off the response once the attacker was fleeing. Nobody here was suggesting anything like a Trayvon Martin-type scenario where you go chasing after somebody because they "look suspicious".

[scriver]

@Reelya - Yes, "beat up" = "defend" in the context of a fight. The one who wins a fight beats the ogre up, the one who loosed gets beaten up. If somebody attacked me, defending myself from from them would means I would try to beat them up. RedKing said he wanted her to tell the bully off, or "intervene" if she had to. That means fight him off, like he said later, "sock him in the eye" or "kick him in the balls". I was not wrong to read "intervene" as I did.

Scriver, I'm totally standing with RedKing here. It's not about turning his daughter into a fighting machine, it's about giving her enough self-confidence that she'll be ready to use violence as a last resort. And I don't think he'd mind if his daughter was to use the f-word against his son's bullies.

I do not protest her defending herself or the brother if the situation required it. I was remarking on how ridiculous it was that he cared about her language when she was about to get physical. Which he said, literally, that she "go up and tell him to piss off (in more kid-appropriate language)". Which is to me a clear case if really, really messed up priorities.

@RedKing - I'll respond to you once I've been to the bathroom, made coffee and powered up my computer, because I can't keep up with you on my phone.

[RedKing]

That's America for you. We don't care if kids if see somebody get their head blown off, as long as nobody drops an F-bomb when it happens. 

I figure she'd get in less trouble for the fighting than for "bad language". *shrug*
That was certainly my experience. I didn't get busted for pinning someone to the roof of the bus by their throat when I spazzed out, but I'd gotten sent to the principal's office a couple of weeks earlier for grumbling under my breath to tell someone to go to hell.