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[Vector]

I'd meant to post this yesterday about the Russian situation, but...

I don't really even know.  Russia is a beautiful country.  I want to say that I like the culture, and yet.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I know I don't. Russia never really emerged from having an authoritarian, intolerant culture. They came close in the 90's, but Putin swept all that away and more.

[Guardian G.I.]

I know I don't. Russia never really emerged from having an authoritarian, intolerant culture. They came close in the 90's, but Putin swept all that away and more.

You can't just erase Russian cultural code.

[XXSockXX]

Oh and it's not a deflection, I'm just puzzled as to why people are boycotting Russian vodka or slamming them whilst happily consuming $3.5B of goods from Malaysia and Saudi Arabia with much worse policies. Yeah, yeah, starving children in Africa, but why does Russia earn all this special attention in the face of brutal treatment? At least it's commonly known people starve in Africa. This is one of the first time I've seen some big media spectacle and many small businesses uniting to boycott an entire country's goods over human rights issues. And really, I'm just questioning the validity of the activism, in that it should be inclusive of these other far worse laws held up by other countries.

On the risk of sounding cynical, isn't that fairly obvious? From a simplified western perspective all these other countries are places you'd rather not live in anyways because they're 3rd world countries or radically islamic or both. Russia on the other hand is not only bigger and more influential but also much more "close" to us, not only in a geographical sense but culturally. Basically Russia has been somewhat lingering on the path to a western style democracy for the past 25 years and everytime we realize that it's not really there (yet?), there is a lot of disappointment.

I know I don't. Russia never really emerged from having an authoritarian, intolerant culture. They came close in the 90's, but Putin swept all that away and more.

Yeah, basically this. Though I guess it is much more of a cultural issue from being used to an authoritarian intolerant culture than only the fault of Putin and his ex-KGB gang. After all Putin's crackdown on gays is basically populism, not something he imposed on an otherwise tolerant country. I'm always baffled by the huge Russian (and Eastern European in general) neo-nazi scene, of all people these guys should know better. Also Putin is relatively moderate compared to many other Russian politicians (remember this guy?), hence the attitude of "hey, maybe Russia needs a strong hand for a while to transition to democracy" that has been and partially still is so prevalent in western politics.

[Guardian G.I.]

Oh and it's not a deflection, I'm just puzzled as to why people are boycotting Russian vodka or slamming them whilst happily consuming $3.5B of goods from Malaysia and Saudi Arabia with much worse policies. Yeah, yeah, starving children in Africa, but why does Russia earn all this special attention in the face of brutal treatment? At least it's commonly known people starve in Africa. This is one of the first time I've seen some big media spectacle and many small businesses uniting to boycott an entire country's goods over human rights issues. And really, I'm just questioning the validity of the activism, in that it should be inclusive of these other far worse laws held up by other countries.

On the risk of sounding cynical, isn't that fairly obvious? From a simplified western perspective all these other countries are places you'd rather not live in anyways because they're 3rd world countries or radically islamic or both. Russia on the other hand is not only bigger and more influential but also much more "close" to us, not only in a geographical sense but culturally. Basically Russia has been somewhat lingering on the path to a western style democracy for the past 25 years and everytime we realize that it's not really there (yet?), there is a lot of disappointment.

Russian society is fundamentally different to Western society - it is collectivist (unlike the individualist Western society) and it doesn't hold freedom and liberty in high regard (unlike the Western society). The most important value for Russians is justice.

[Vector]

Yup.  I, in general, am pro-collectivism, though I think the attempts to force homogeneity (rather than supporting diversity within a community) are short-sighted, to say the least.

[Owlbread]

Russian society is fundamentally different to Western society - it is collectivist (unlike the individualist Western society) and it doesn't hold freedom and liberty in high regard (unlike the Western society). The most important value for Russians is justice.

This sums it up so well. I've found that speaking to a lot of Russians, especially if I go bigot-baiting and start discussing Chechnya. They see things in collectives - they accuse me of hiding Chechen rebels when I'm just a guy out in the Highlands, I'm not bloody MI5. If I start talking negatively about the Russian government or Putin, I am criticising them i.e. the Russians I am talking to personally. I suppose it dates back to Tsarist times. Lends itself very well to authoritarian/totalitarian governments too. Justice is the most important value I have seen.

Maybe the problems that people generally see with Communism come from that - you know, it's all fine and well saying "power to the people" until one small group declare that they "are the people" and seize power, but in Russia and China and many other failed Communist states that was the norm and always had been. The collectivist way of thinking also, in my opinion, leads to a lot of the racism and bigotry that run rampant through Russian society - if a Muslim/Caucasian guy robs your friend or you or your relative fought them in the wars back in the '90s, that's all Muslims/Caucasians written off.

The most difficult thing to get across to guys like that is the whole idea of how certain bad people do not represent all people of that race/ethnicity/nation. They will usually say that I just don't understand and that I'm a stupid Westerner and I should come to Russia and see how "these animals" live.

It's interesting that the Russian culture tends to value justice as much as English culture does. The difference is that English people traditionally value personal freedom and the whole "a man's home is his castle" idea (hence why totalitarianism never took hold there). Their love of justice is also focussed largely on, to quote a Scottish writer almost verbatim, a particular kind of justice according to charter and statute. It accentuates stuffy tradition, law and order, rules and regulations and keeping social order. The Houses of Parliament and all their little details are good visual examples of that part of English culture. You can see then why Conservatism, on the whole, would be popular in both Russia and England.

An older part that is now being forgotten that I particularly like is a love of flowers. They used to hold a special place in English culture. Obviously England is not a monolithic/homogenous state and people from county to county will differ wildly, I am just going by the established dominant culture that originates from the South-East.

[Guardian G.I.]

Russian society is fundamentally different to Western society - it is collectivist (unlike the individualist Western society) and it doesn't hold freedom and liberty in high regard (unlike the Western society). The most important value for Russians is justice.

This sums it up so well. I've found that speaking to a lot of Russians, especially if I go bigot-baiting and start discussing Chechnya. They see things in collectives - they accuse me of hiding Chechen rebels when I'm just a guy out in the Highlands, I'm not bloody MI5. If I start talking negatively about the Russian government or Putin, I am criticising them i.e. the Russians I am talking to personally. I suppose it dates back to Tsarist times. Lends itself very well to authoritarian/totalitarian governments too. Justice is the most important value I have seen.

Maybe the problems that people generally see with Communism come from that - you know, it's all fine and well saying "power to the people" until one small group declare that they "are the people" and seize power, but in Russia and China and many other failed Communist states that was the norm and always had been. The collectivist way of thinking also, in my opinion, leads to a lot of the racism and bigotry that run rampant through Russian society - if a Muslim/Caucasian guy robs your friend or you or your relative fought them in the wars back in the '90s, that's all Muslims/Caucasians written off.

The most difficult thing to get across to guys like that is the whole idea of how certain bad people do not represent all people of that race/ethnicity/nation. They will usually say that I just don't understand and that I'm a stupid Westerner and I should come to Russia and see how "these animals" live.

To be honest, Chechens are not saints. When they live in diasporas (and they tend to create diasporas), they have a tendency to create gangs and terrorize the locals. You may think that it happens because they are discriminated and not allowed to have good jobs and so on and so forth, but they usually don't even try to fit into the society even if given the opportunity. Furthermore, they are known to be extremely arrogant and hostile to non-Chechens, no matter how tolerant the non-Chechens are.

In the 1990s, a lot of Chechen refugees settled down in the town when I live. Belarusians are tolerant and hospitable people, and when the Chechens came, no one objected - everyone knew about the war in Chechnya, and how awful things are there.
The Chechens bought several houses on the eastern outskirts of the city. They didn't take any kind of jobs, instead they've formed a gang, started harassing the locals, robbed shops, and generally acted like they own the place. The neighbourhood where they lived was soon nicknamed "Dudaev Street" by the town's residents, and had a reputation of being very dangerous.
The local residents started to complain to local authorities. The authorities decided to fix the problem once and for all: one day, early in the morning, the Chechen neighbourhood was stormed by heavily armed police forces. All Chechen residents were deported back to Russia.

[Owlbread]

I know Chechens aren't saints in the same way that African Americans aren't saints or black Jamaicans/Afro-Britons or Somalians in the UK, or indeed white European people. I don't claim that they are saints, nor do I doubt that some North Caucasians do form street gangs and cause trouble for a plethora of reasons. They're just people. Refugees, especially from a country like Chechnya where a lot of resentment towards the victors/people you are fleeing to is festering, can often cause problems. They often carry the problems of their old country with them. Scotland knows this only too well, people get stabbed in the street over it on a regular basis.

I maintain though that there is a tendency among the Russians that I have spoken to on this issue to view all bad eggs as being representative of their respective nation/culture, not just as bad eggs. It is part of the collective thinking we've talked about.

One could suggest that I am doing the same thing; by suggesting that "Russians" think in such and such a way, I'm being a bit hypocritical. I've been careful though to never speak in absolutes like that and only refer to those that I have debated with. Every single one (honestly) has had these attitudes, but I know that still doesn't mean I can speak in absolutes on that evidence.

I suppose that begs the question; what am I trying to show then if I'm not trying to say "Russians think like such and such"? It's more like I'm trying to show cultural trends that I have noticed. It isn't shown by all Russians but a significant number - significant enough for comment. That's different from me saying something like "Russians can't stop thinking in collectives and are all racist because of it". That simply isn't true.

[Descan]

What the hell was that earlier conversation?

[MonkeyHead]

It's probably best if we do not open that one up again...

[Loud Whispers]

What the hell was that earlier conversation?

Russians, gay rights. Mix of both.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Waidaminute...

[scriver]

Blame the male-centric society of history for inserting "male" into the concept of "man"

If man still would just have meant human/person instead of taking an overtone of "male" then that would have been entirely correct.

Did you contact Google about correcting that? (Disclaimer - I don't know how that "define" command work or if Google can actually do anything about it).

[GlyphGryph]

Many Western countries actually have it as a point of law that women cannot commit rape and that it is a strictly male crime.

The definition is correct in the region where Loud Whispers lives, and not for reasons of semantics.

[Leafsnail]

Someone with a penis who identifies as a woman (that covers people who are intersex and transexuals) can be a rapist under UK law, although that's probably something of an edge case.