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[bradr]

Proposed Dwarf Fortress Magic System:

These are my thoughts on the magic system in Dwarf Fortress.  I have no programming experience, so I have no way of knowing if these thoughts are even conceivable within the game.  This is just a list of things that I think sounds fun.

For starters, I firmly believe that magic should have ON/OFF settings with regards to the level of magic in the world.  Probably something between Off, Low, and High.

Regarding control of magic users, I am somewhat torn between total control over magic users (ie: military style control) and dwarf control (ie: Dungeon Master/Nobles).  While both have their merits, with the amount of investment placed into these dwarves, I am siding on the side of total control for this writeup.

Most of the writing here is with the assumption that the setting is on High Magic World.  My intent is to outline a system that will allow a devoted player to have plenty of magic at their disposal, while at the same time limiting the ability to gain magic (especially high end magics) to only very dedicated players.

Once again, this is what I think sounds fun within the constraints of the game system as I know it.

Basics

Magic is divided into two main categories of skills, Arcane and Divine
   ⁃   Each of these are assigned from the magic menu, similar to conscripting a dwarf for the military.
   ⁃   Magic skill is increased by Study (Arcane) or Leading Service (Divine).  Skill allows a dwarf to learn magical abilities, which are the spells of the game.
   ⁃   Magical skills are severely limited by personality traits, of which higher traits allow for the ability to increase skills to a higher level.
   ⁃   Many dwarves will be completely restricted from magic because of lacking personality traits.
   ⁃   Magic abilities are learned through Research (Arcane) and Prayer (Divine).
   ⁃   Magical abilities are severely restricted by monetary barriers.  Learning new abilities can be VERY expensive and time/labor intensive.

Magic is cast from the casting menu (similar to the military "s" menu).  A dwarf is selected from the list, and his ability is targeted at an area, item, or creature.

Magic is cast based on a point value of each spell casting 
   ⁃   Points are determined by total skill level of arcane or divine skill.  No skill means no points (and no ability access).  Higher skill levels have more points available.
   ⁃   Casting a magic ability costs points. 
   ⁃   A magic casting subtracts a set amount of points from the overall pool of available points for the creature.
   ⁃   Arcane and Divine points are separately tracked.
   ⁃   If a creature has insufficient points available, they may not use that particular magic ability.
   ⁃   If a creature has no points available, they may not use any magical abilities until they recharge their points.
   ⁃   Points are recharged by Study (arcane) or Leading Service (divine). 

Study (Arcane) - Recharging Arcane Magic Points
   ⁃   Requires substantial time investment and designated study area for the arcane dwarf.
   ⁃   Think of it similar to the bookkeeper skill.
   ⁃   Higher level in the Arcane skill leads to faster Arcane magic point regeneration.
   ⁃   Skill levels can only increase to the next level when the study area has a certain total value. 
   ⁃   As Arcane skill level increases, so does the total required value of the study area. 
   ⁃   At higher Arcane skill levels, the study area may be several times the value of royal rooms, while training to master and legendary levels may require rooms full of artifacts in order to meet the incredibly high value requirements.
   ⁃   Only one dwarf may be assigned to a study area, and overlapping study areas reduce value of both rooms just as in bedrooms.

Leading Service (Divine) - Recharging Divine Magic Points
   ⁃   Requires substantial time investment, designated service area, and a group of praying dwarves for the divinely skilled dwarf. 
   ⁃   Think of it like a very long meeting (leading prayer in this case) in a designated meeting hall, where lots of dwarves are required to be attending the meeting (praying).
   ⁃   Praying will need to be enabled as a new labor, which requires a designated area and thrones/bench designation.
   ⁃   More praying dwarves lead to a faster point regeneration. 
   ⁃   Eventually, at higher Divine skill levels, a minimum number of dwarves in prayer is needed to even regenerate points.  Higher Divine skill may even require a certain number of Nobles or Legendary skill dwarves praying.
   ⁃   Only one dwarf may lead a prayer for a designated prayer area at any given time.

Magic abilities are able to be cast by having sufficient skill level in Arcane or Divine skill
   ⁃   Arcane Magic and Divine Magic skill levels;
   ⁃   Dabbling through Legendary

Study (Arcane) - Increasing Arcane Skill
   ⁃   Arcane skill is increased through Study in appropriately designated area.
   ⁃   Arcane magic points pool must be full.
   ⁃   If Arcane point pool is full and value of study area is sufficient, arcane skill will slowly increase. 
   ⁃   If a dwarf does not have a full reserve of Arcane magic points, they will not level up their Arcane skill - they will recharge Arcane magic points until their "pool" is filled.  Then their Arcane skill will slowly begin to increase.

Leading Service (Divine) - Increasing Divine Skill
   ⁃   Divine skill is increased through Leading Service in appropriately designated area.
   ⁃   Divine magic points pool must be full. 
   ⁃   If Divine point pool is full and service contains sufficient number/level/class of dwarves, divine skill will slowly increase.
   ⁃   If a dwarf does not have a full reserve of Divine magic points, they will not level up their Divine skill - they will recharge Divine magic points until their "pool" is filled.  Then their Divine skill will slowly begin to increase.

Dwarves with higher skill levels have more points available 
   ⁃   Higher level magics cost more points to cast.  Therefore only higher skill levels may cast higher level magics.
   ⁃   Magical abilities are tiered in point costs
   ⁃   Lower level abilities cost less Arcane or Divine points.  Higher level abilities cost more Arcane or Divine points.

When a dwarf reaches a new Arcane or Divine skill level, they gain the ability to unlock new abilities for that skill
   ⁃   These gained magical powers are greyed out and unusable until the dwarf invests sufficient time and resources into Research (Arcane) or Personal Prayer (Divine) to "unlock" the ability. 
   ⁃   A dwarf may unlock abilities for the new skill level, as well as continue to unlock abilities for previous skill level.

Magic abilities (spells) are learned through Research (Arcane) or Personal Prayer (Divine) 

Research (Arcane) - Unlocking new Arcane Abilities (Spells)
   ⁃   New Arcane magics are unlocked with a research dwarf of appropriate Arcane skill level, time, valuable resources, and the appropriately designated research area.   
   ⁃   Think of it like a very long artifact construction in a designated noble bedroom, which requires very specific ingredients.
   ⁃   The new ability (Spell) to be learned by the dwarf may be designated by the player.
   ⁃   Each Arcane skill level's magical abilities have unique and specific ingredient requirements to unlock. 
   ⁃   These ingredients are consumed in the process of learning the new ability.
   ⁃   As Arcane skill level increases, abilities take much longer to research and ingredients are much more rare and valuable.
   ⁃   For instance a low skill fire spell may require ash, a silver mug, blood, and a month in study, while a very high level fire spell may require 100 ash, 5 platinum mugs incrusted with rubies, part of a demon, and a year of study.
   ⁃   Arcane magical abilities are unlocked one at a time
   ⁃   Only one may be researched at a given time
   ⁃   If another ability is chosen, progress on the previous ability is stalled until reselected (or possibly progress is erased?)
   ⁃   Higher skill level's abilities take much longer amounts of time to unlock.

Personal Prayer (Divine) - Unlocking new Divine Abilities (Spells)
   ⁃   New Divine Magics are unlocked with a dwarf committing to Personal Prayer, time, and the appropriately designated prayer area.
   ⁃   Think of it like a very long period for a bookkeeper dwarf in a designated noble bedroom.
   ⁃   Each skill level's magical abilities are unlocked through a set amount of prayer time corresponding to the skill level. 
   ⁃   Divine magical abilities are unlocked one at a time. 
   ⁃   The new ability (Spell) to be learned by the dwarf may be designated by the player.
   ⁃   Only one may be researched at a given time
   ⁃   If another ability is chosen, progress on the previous ability is stalled until reselected (or possibly progress is erased?)
   ⁃   Each skill level's magical abilities are able to be unlocked only when the designated Personal Prayer area has a certain total value. 
   ⁃   As skill level increases, so does the total required value of the Personal Prayer area. 
   ⁃   At higher levels, the prayer area may be several times the value of royal rooms, while endgame abilities may require rooms full of artifacts in order to meet the incredibly high value requirements.
   ⁃   For instance, a simple suture spell may require a room value of 1000, while a raise dead spell may require a room value of tens of millions.

Magical abilities, once learned, becomes a permanent ability of the creature, able to be cast at will dependent on the point reserve of the casting skill.

Magic is very hard to obtain
   ⁃   Prospective casters will need prerequisite personality trait levels.
   ⁃   Casters will need prerequisite skill levels for the magical abilities, which require very valuable furnishings for arcane, and many praying dwarves for divine.
   ⁃   Casters require available magic points to cast the magic ability.  Without recharging the points or having enough in the first place, abilities cannot be used.
   ⁃   Magical abilities must be researched/prayed for to "unlock" the magic.  Arcane abilities require time and expensive/rare ingredients, while divine abilities require very valuable furnishings.


Brief Thoughts:
Arcane Abilities
   ⁃   Is acquired through study at an arcane workshop
   ⁃   Arcane workshop is space, designated from a throne.  Requires throne, tables, cabinets, and chests
   ⁃   Is stocked similar to a hospital with paper, gems, animal parts, etc
   ⁃   Dabbling through legendary
   ⁃   Dependent on personality traits, with certain skill levels unobtainable without certain combinations or minimum prerequisites of very high personality traits
   ⁃   As skill level increases, creature obtains additional mana/points.  Higher skill levels have higher points.
   ⁃   Points replenished through study

Divine Skills
   ⁃   Is acquired though prayer in a church
   ⁃   Church is a space, designated from an table, with several chairs nearby.
   ⁃   Dabbling through legendary
   ⁃   Dependent on personality traits, with certain skill levels unobtainable without certain combinations or minimum prerequisites of very high personality traits
   ⁃   Points replenished through leading prayer

Crafting
Alchemy Benches
   ⁃   Potions
   ⁃   Substances
   ⁃   Acid
   ⁃   Exploding Powder
Enchanting Tables
   ⁃   Weapons
   ⁃   Armor
   ⁃   Traps
   ⁃   Furniture
   ⁃   Rooms w/ ambient qualities
   ⁃   Summoning Room/Circles
Constructs
   ⁃   Golems
   ⁃   Alarm Systems
   ⁃   Traps
   ⁃   Clockwork peasants

Very Rough Skill Tier Abilities (Arcane)
   1.   Dabbling
   ⁃   Arrow - Launch magical arrows at target (chance to hit dependent on Arcane skill, hit % coincides with Marksman equivalent).  Arrows are equivalent of 1 standard quality wooden arrow.
   ⁃   Summon Dog - Summon a tame dog for 1 day
   2.   Novice
   ⁃   Armor, Lesser - Give caster equivalent of full leather armor for 1 day
   ⁃   Web
   3.   Adequate
   ⁃   Arrow Greater - Launch magical arrows at target (chance to hit dependent on Arcane skill, hit % coincides with Marksman equivalent).  Arrows are equivalent of 1 finely crafted iron arrow.
   ⁃   Breathe Water
   ⁃   Summon Lion - Summon a tame tiger for 1 day
   4.   Competent
   ⁃   Armor - Give caster equivalent of Iron armor for 1 day
   ⁃   Invisibility - Gives target invisibility for 6 hours or until it attacks
   5.   Skilled
   ⁃   Fireball - Launch an ember that explodes into a 5x5 blast.  Ignites creatures and plants.
   ⁃   Lighting stroke - Launch a bolt of lightning in a 25 foot lone line from dwarf to target point.
   ⁃   Summon tame Giant Tiger for 1 day
   6.   Proficient
   ⁃   Armor, Greater - Give caster equivalent of Steel Armor for 1 day
   7.   Talented
   ⁃   Wall of Fire - Create a wall of fire that burns a 2x10 foot square for 1 day.
   8.   Adept
   ⁃   Fly for 6 hours.  After duration, you are safely deposited directly on the nearest tile directly below you.
   ⁃   Armor, Master - Give caster equivalent of Masterwork Steel Armor for 1 day
   ⁃   Summon Peasant - Summon a peasant for one day.
   9.   Expert
   ⁃   Wall of Stone - Create a 7 tile long wall of granite.  Permanent.
   ⁃   Summon pet imp.  Permanent.  Only one per caster.
   10.   Professional
   11.   Accomplished
   ⁃   Summon tame Lesser Demon for 1 day
   12.   Great
   ⁃   Summon tame Hydra for 1 day
   13.   Master
   ⁃   Summon tame Demon for 1 day
   14.   High Master
   ⁃   Armor Epic - Give caster equivalent of adamantium armor for 1 day
   15.   Grand Master
   ⁃   Summon tame Greater Demon for 1 day
   16.   Legendary
   ⁃   Armor Epic, Greater - Give caster equivalent of masterwork adamantium armor for 1 day
   ⁃   Summon tame dragon for 1 day

Very Rough Skill Tier Abilities (Divine)
   1.   Dabbling
   ⁃   Calm - Remove all unhappy thoughts from a Dwarf
   ⁃   Summon Dog - Duration 1 day
   ⁃   Suture - Suture one would
   ⁃   Mend - Restore one clothing object to perfect condition
   2.   Novice
   ⁃   Enrage - Remove all happy thoughts from a dwarf
   3.   Adequate
   ⁃   Boost strength
   4.   Competent
   5.   Skilled
   6.   Proficient
   ⁃   Curse - Curse one creature.  Stats reduced.
   7.   Talented
   ⁃   Douse - remove the burning tag from an object or creature
   8.   Adept
   ⁃   Create skeleton - Turns one corpse into a tame skeletal creature of the same type
   9.   Expert
   ⁃   Summon pet (minor angel).  Permanent.  Only one can be active per caster.
   10.   Professional
   11.   Accomplished
   12.   Great
   13.   Master
   14.   High Master
   ⁃   Raise dead - Brings dwarf corpse back from the dead (must have corpse)
   15.   Grand Master
   16.   Legendary
   ⁃   Ressurection - Brings dead dwarf back from dead.  No remains necessary.


Some things I envision with this system:
   1.   Equipping every soldier with a healing potion and a magical sword.
   2.   A player having hundreds of dwarves praying in a giant cathedral to power the ability of a single dwarf to raise a dead dwarf king who was slain in battle.
   3.   A mighty mage dwarf who can single handedly repel Sieges with devastating volleys of fire, ice, and lightning.
   4.   A powerful dwarf who uses mind control to bend an army of goblin slaves to his will and defend the fortress.
   5.   Having colossal constructs of stone ever-vigilant at the gates to the dwarves fortress.
   6.   Battling the hordes of hell with summoned angelic beings, or summoning the very demons themselves and bribing them with gems and bars to combat their brethren.

[assasin]

while its not a bad idea I remember an interview with toady saying that he doesn't think fireballs are very dwarfy and that he doesn't want to have religion be an imput prayer, output spell business deal. Though he did say he'd consider an earth/rune based system.

I guess this system could have some alterations to make it work. instead of study you could have the dwarves make runestones or whatever to cast the spells. not sure about divine magic though.

So instead of points you'd have premade spells. it does add a certain planning side to the system. it would also make control easier. instead of controling dwarves like milatary you'd place each rune like you would a table or throne. have a spell menu with all of your runes, select one and place it. a dwarf would then pick it up out of a stockpile and cast the spell.

I will say that I would like to see a material component be more than an unlock. And should be something valuable and rare. I'd rather not see magic be used everyday after you designate one fifth of you fort to study it. If a spell/rune required diamond, dragons blood and adamantine it wouldn't be used chase away an ambush. maybe you might use it to cause a panic in an army, but it wouldn't be your sole line of defense, only ujsed in emergencies.

[Putnam]

Seems a bit too... widespread. I like to think that magic's frequency across the land should be similar to that of necromancy.

[assasin]

Seems a bit too... widespread. I like to think that magic's frequency across the land should be similar to that of necromancy.

partially disagree. every fortress after a certain state of development should have a spellcaster, but it should be so expensive that the magic isn't used everyday. if there an average of twenty gemstones of a certain type across an entire map and one spell required that sort of gemstone to work, you could only cast twenty of that spell. Trading for spellcasting materials may be an option, but they should be ten [or possibly a hundred, not really an expert on game balance] times more expensive than they normally would be becuase of their spellcasting use.

So in other words it shouldn't be common to see magic but it should still be widespread.

[Scoops Novel]

Personally, i think magics effects should be relatively wide spread, e.g, creatures, races, magical areas, etc., with the actual casting of magic and magical creatures being far less so, depending on whether there are numerous lesser users or a very few exceptionally powerful ones. Each area may have it's own magic and creatures, but we shouldn't have ubiquitous werewolves/vampires/obvious monsters as we do now. Something a little more subtle and unique should be the long term goal. Rune based magic does sound like the king dwarfs would be attracted to and skilled at, but neither should it be the only one. Under the right conditions, say striking a magical ore or creating an artifact which needs special care, or simply a threat too big for the mountainhomes to ignore, you might be sent a magic user, or you could attempt to cultivate one developing among your own populace, say through exposure to those in strange moods or deliberately leaving them near magical entity's. In fact, having the option to send out your dwarves to try to learn magic, be it through academy's or someone or something they find in the world, scout-able beforehand and potentially reusable after with all manner of attendant perils and interested parties, should be in and abuseable by nobles though of course whether or not dwarves will actually obey you is a different story.

Magic users themselves... figures of mystery who may or may not obey you, rise your fort to majestic heights or wreak havoc upon it or even merely be an exceptionally pathetic druid who specializes in removing warts from ticks. They might infiltrate you, arrive in splendor and demand leadership attack by themselves or with a horde, or simply fall prey to mistrust and divine displeasure at their unusual, unsanctioned magics. They may need all manner of unusual resources or none at all 9though admittedly quite quite rarely for the latter) and each will have their own unique perils you'll have to counteract. And if you ever manage to get a group of spell users in your fort... Armok himself doesn't know what will happen next.

Ordering them shouldn't be a manner of selecting spells, unless they're particularly open and/or you've seen it before. Rather, you tell them the gist of what you want, e.g kill them but protect the caravan, and depending on their magics they'll do their best or worst to achieve it, much like combat. And if you ever manage to get a group of spell users in your fort... Armok himself doesn't know what will happen next.

In summary; you're going to see magic effects fairly commonly, as it does tend to last, but it's users very rarely, depending on the world, with unpredictable effects and every form of magic unique world to world, with the same often going for it's users. There should never simply be a "use fireball" option.

[assasin]

Ordering them shouldn't be a manner of selecting spells, unless they're particularly open and/or you've seen it before. Rather, you tell them the gist of what you want, e.g kill them but protect the caravan, and depending on their magics they'll do their best or worst to achieve it, much like combat. And if you ever manage to get a group of spell users in your fort... Armok himself doesn't know what will happen next.

If there were fairly advanced orders I could support it. Maybe if there were a large veriety of disciplines you'd be able to figure out which one is best for each job. scouting [when world travel will be added to fort mode] would best be done by a discipline that could scry [see farther than line of sight]. a demon summoning warlock may be able to tell you whtas there based on a demons verbal report but a scryer could show you. that way it wouldn;t be completely random.

possible disciplines could include

runesmiths [enchantments]
spellsmiths [different type of enchantment]
pyromancer [light, heat and fire; maybe scrying]
warlock [demon summoning for various tasks]
necromancers
druids
etc,

[GreatWyrmGold]

About the frequency of magic: Magicians who you want to have should be possible to get, if you work at it and they exist, but if you want every good kind of magician or an army of pyromancers or something it'll either be really difficult to attract them, really expensive to maintain them, really likely to cause magical duels and intrigue which would prove devastating to your fortress (say, a healer setting the alcohol stockpile on fire and blaming the pyromancer), or some combination thereof.

[Joe Toy]

Hi I'm new here, I have some confused and incoherent  ideas of "how i would imagine magic in DF" that are different from what I've read wandering around  the forum on this subject (i haven't read all of them because it's really a huge quantity of material).
If I want to share those ideas, should I start a new thread? At risk of making "another magic thread"  which could repeat the same things of another thread written years ago, that I have missed. (from what I have understood, reading around, repeated threads are an annoying problem of the forum)
Should I continue an existing thread like this one? Neither of the two?
Thank for your help.

I'm sorry for my bad english, but it's not my first language.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Ideally, continue on a thread about magic with ideas similar to yours.

[Owlbread]

I'm not sure if I like the idea of the actual DF magical spells ending up as quite pedestrian things like "summon animal", "magical armour", "enchant weapon/armour", "cast arrow/fire/ice", each following spell level X, Y, Z etc.

I'd rather it be even more unpredictable and fantastical, like one spell granting even a dabbling user the ability to conjur an ethereal shield around themselves that makes them completely invulnerable and launches great tongues of fire at their enemies, but could cause them to turn into a giant firebreathing chicken if they are not strong enough, with the duration of the spell depending on their skill.

The spells should have the ability to make even the weakest spellcaster unspeakably powerful, but the lower the skill the greater the risk to the magician themself and those around him. The lower the skill the more unstable the magic becomes.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Maybe not that random, but I can definitely see problems for newb magic users. To use the example given in your post: Maybe the fire would be on the wrong side, or maybe the shield wouldn't allow air to pass, or maybe the shield would get stuck there and not let the magician out, ever.

[Owlbread]

Maybe not that random, but I can definitely see problems for newb magic users. To use the example given in your post: Maybe the fire would be on the wrong side, or maybe the shield wouldn't allow air to pass, or maybe the shield would get stuck there and not let the magician out, ever.

I would recommend that the results of the failure should be decided through procedural generation with a very broad and fantastical range of variables, so you could have a very bizarre thing like growing horns and speaking backwards for 10 minutes or the flames could turn on the person inside the shield. More bizarre things would be less likely.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The consequences should be logical results of screwing up 99% of the time for newbs, and most of the time for normal mages. Newbs would get nervous, switch a couple of vowels, and put the fire on the wrong side; experienced mages would fail to sync up with the current random magical crap and grow horns or turn into a chicken or something.

[Beardedwander]

All this nonsense about spells and prayer sounds like elf talk to me.

I envision Dwarven magic being more along the line of crafting objects and building things with maybe some alchemy thrown in for good measure. (Even then alchemy should be more like chemistry/pharmacology than magic)

Some examples of Dwarfy magic:
Runes built into the floor that burn/freeze/shock/melt/petrify enemies that walk over them. Maybe even some larger versions that take up a 3x3 space but do more damage and/or affect EVERYTHING in a certain radius.

Enchanted armor and weapons. Ideally enchantments would not just be the boring +X damage/armor but have slightly more varied effects like increasing movement speed, increasing accuracy, critterbane(does bonus damage vs a certain creature type of category), projectile deflection, dragonfire/syndrome protection, regeneration, magma/heat protection etc...

Golems. Colossal stone or metal constructions animated by magic but created through solid Dwarven engineering and craftdwarfship. These things would require tons of materials to build and highly skilled dwarfs at every step of the processes but with proper materials and masterwork craftdwarfship they would be as strong as any megabeast. Materials would include dozens of metal bars/stone blocks of the same type, 8-12 mechanisms and some sort of "heart" or soulstone. Golems could be controlled similar to military squads but would not require food/drink/sleep and could be posted on patrol or guard duty indefinitely. For bonus points don't restrict the materials allowing hilarious if somewhat ineffective constructions such as soap or cheese golems.

Alchemy:
Acids of varying strengths made from various plants and minerals. There could be a new acid trap this trap would be mounted on the ceiling requiring channeling out the floor on the above z level and placing the trap there. Upon activation it would release its payload with a small aoe. Construction requires a large pot made of glass and a mechanism. As a bonus acid traps can be used to "double up" on traps in a critical hallway since they don't use the floor tile and can be manually triggered so as to be effective against [trapavoid] enemies. Acids could also be dumped in a channel or the floor creating hazards for enemy and dorf alike.
Healing pastes/elixirs could also be made from various plants. There could one that cure syndromes/disease, one that increases bone healing, one for wounds, one that produces a happy thought, etc...
Finally things like paralyzing/sleeping drafts that could be administered via blowgun or a new blowdart trap or some sort of mister trap.

I have a few more ideas but this is getting distinctly wall of texty and this isn't even my thread so I'll leave it at this for now.

[GreatWyrmGold]

While dwarves might invent magic on those principles, other races wouldn't. If dwarves buy elven-grown wood to fuel their forges, they would use elven-style magic to...um...do something dwarfy. Like, enslave badgers and use them as haulers and guards or something like that.