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Author Topic: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension  (Read 526269 times)

Shadowlord

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #2190 on: April 05, 2016, 10:56:12 am »

The blood hunting without patrolling things really puzzles me. So pros, you don't have to acquire a patrolling force and pay upkeep, you don't have to occasionally move when your population drops below 4000. Cons you lose income, you lose blood income, and if you're lazy like me you lost the ability to recruit mages in the blood hunting province (building a lab is a small price to pay for not having to aggressively micro)

Seems like from a cost efficiency basis it makes sense to at least keep an army of patrollers who's upkeep is less than the value of the province. From a blood hunting efficiency point of view once your unrest is 100 the straight chance of failure is 25% according to the manual. That means for every four bloodhunters you are paying one to just make people angry, and without managing unrest you can get to a hundred unrest in three or four turns, seeing as the unrest generated by succeeding at blood hunting is 1-(3xthe number of blood slaves collected+4) it would take on average  132 blood slaves collected before the chance of failing a blood hunt in that province is 50% from unrest alone and 265 blood slaves before blood hunting was entirely shut down by unrest. Now this is assuming that the passive things that reduce unrest balance unrest caused by failed blood hunting. This becomes less and less true as unrest rises because it causes more failed blood hunting.

For much of the game I only had one or two B1 blood hunters per province (it seemed to work best with just one), although they were effectively B2s due to the xibalban blood hunting bonus, which meant there'd be less unrest without slaves. As a result, PD plus Order 3 were sufficient to keep unrest fairly low.

Unrest only became a problem when I started farming provinces with significantly more hunters to increase my blood income, which increased it rapidly in the short term, but then started to decrease it again as unrest rose. I could have raised armies to patrol, yes. I didn't because I was spending the gold on more important things and didn't really need additional slaves that badly - and taking more territory was providing me with new places to farm anyways.

The province with the highest unrest (and the most blood hunters) at the end of that game had 271 unrest, and 13 blood hunters (half of them effective B3s with 100% level checks, the rest effective B2s with 90% level checks, because ea xibalba) - but that was the result of me taking all blood mages off of research after I finished researching every research topic in the game.

That was a very abnormal game, though. It was a fairly large map, with 5 players, and the throne settings were set to make it a long game. The player right next to me was EA Pangaea with a double water+fire bless, and they took two forts of mine with super-centaurs, but then said that they couldn't remember what they were planning to do, and went AI. The AI proved inept and didn't really properly use or even produce the super-centaurs. If they'd invaded me before I had mass demon summoning instead of going AI I'd probably have been screwed. In the end I dom-killed everyone with blood sac, but also had enough slaves for demon knight + storm demon armies.

I'll note that in my first attempt at ea xibalba I tried blood hunting my capital, and patrolling to keep unrest down, and it decimated my population and gold income despite controlling unrest, which is why the second time I played them I (a) didn't blood hunt my capital, and (b) didn't patrol.
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Mithras

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #2191 on: April 05, 2016, 12:12:39 pm »

Yeah, xibala make for really shitty patrollers. That said, they have the freespawn beast bats, which are nice for that job. Also did you build a lab in every province you bloodhunted with 1 guy in, because if you did, that's where all your money went if you didn't holy micro batman!

Also a game where you win by domkilling everyone sounds depressingly long. It's a pity that that is the paradox of dominions, there's a whole load of cool stuff late game, but late game is a terrible place for a player's soul.
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Shadowlord

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #2192 on: April 05, 2016, 12:39:18 pm »

Yeah, I did. Also palisades and temples, in the early game, so I could recruit researchers there as well since unrest was under control still. I had a bunch of palisades recruiting researchers to speed up my research. In the beginning I was still experimenting, and after hunting initially for a couple years, I think (and creating a few vampire lords), I switched most of the initial blood hunters to research until I hit blood-9, and that's when I kicked off the high-volume blood hunting.
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AlStar

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #2193 on: April 05, 2016, 12:47:16 pm »

I don't think I'd ever recommend blood hunting in the capital - even if you're keeping unrest down, taxes are collected before patrolling takes place, so you're really shooting yourself in the foot, income-wise.

The easiest way to get a bunch of patrollers is to use call of the winds - 10 air gems gets you an entire flock which can easily deal with unrest, even from several high level blood hunters working in the same province.

Shadowlord

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #2194 on: April 05, 2016, 12:49:47 pm »

Yeah. I didn't understand that at the time. (or rather, didn't realize)
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ThtblovesDF

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #2195 on: April 05, 2016, 04:23:27 pm »

I did a test game, with me playing all nations just to text blood and I found the horror seed spell to err... be weak as hell. Even when hitting a sea of un-enhanced mandeas or a province with only 20-ish regular human militia, the horror never does much, so it really comes down to a "safe" horror mark, that has a extremly hard time spreading to commanders of any kind. Had my hopes up it'd be better then in dom3...
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Frumple

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #2196 on: April 05, 2016, 04:30:19 pm »

Yeah, xibala make for really shitty patrollers.
Actually, iirc even with the penalty, junky precision, and mildly low AP zotz are still slightly better than average patrollers (compared to say, indie militia), if only barely. Flight counts for a lot.

Their warriors work just fine for keeping a blood hunt province under control, you just need a good handful (20+, which is still quite cheap) of them.
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E. Albright

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #2197 on: April 05, 2016, 05:45:40 pm »

Nope. Indy militia counts as (10+10)/20 = 1 patrol strength. Zotz count as (5+30)/20-1 = .75 patrol strength. Flight is generally an effective +1 (it makes you use a value of 30 for AP, regardless of actual AP), so a very low precision and a penalty of -1 more than cancel it out.
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Frumple

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #2198 on: April 05, 2016, 05:56:57 pm »

Hrm. Fair enough.

... mind, it still only takes a few dozen zotz (which is basically nothing, heh) to hold down a blood province, so far as I've noticed. You can do the same a little cheaper with militia, but it's much easier to get zotz places. I wouldn't think the zotz nations would have much trouble with unrest control, basically.

Though in mild retrospect, I'm now kinda' wondering who does. The patrolling part of blood hunting has always seemed to be pretty trivial to manage (dump a stack of native indies or bring in one of your own set of cheapos, boom, you're done). It's just the rest of it (well, mostly figuring out the right balance between hunters and the province being eaten) that's a PitA :V

also, there's totally three different identically named millitia that range from are totally 10/10 to 10/12, so their strength could actually be a bit over 1, heh.
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E. Albright

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #2199 on: April 05, 2016, 06:14:53 pm »

Well, yes, but obviously 10 is a magic number in Dominions. ;p

It's also worth noting that you're paying more per unit for the zotz on top of them being worse (7g vs. 8g), but if you're comparing them to random non-militia indies you're a lot closer to getting what you pay for in re: patrolling (plus let's not forget that zotz can actually be used for other things...)
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Frumple

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #2200 on: April 05, 2016, 06:27:02 pm »

Xibalba zotz are only 7g :P

MA has to get them from forests, but still, heh.

Though yeah, the ability to use zotz for something else besides causing morale routs for your army (and breaking down walls, I guess) is... nice.

... though now I'm kinda' wondering if utterdark or perpetual storm (or dark skies, I guess) effects patrolling numbers. Does the game even notice that sort of thing?
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Shadowlord

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #2201 on: April 05, 2016, 07:15:02 pm »

I mainly used them for siege defense. Stealth is especially useful for sneaking new defenders in, and withdrawing them and all the zotz researchers etc if the gates are broken down.

Although that said, I was also only hiring the green ones (guards? The ones you need a fort to recruit) because they were less awful in battle and could actually beat most indies, in ea anyways.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 07:19:16 pm by Shadowlord »
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AlStar

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #2202 on: April 06, 2016, 11:14:32 pm »

Totally theorycrafting here (IGNORE ME!) - but would it be better to send a SC by themselves, or with a couple of demon bodyguards?

I'm 50% concerned that if the bodyguards die, the SC will flee, and 50% concerned that if I don't give my SC bodyguards, that he'll get killed before he decides it's time to leave.

Mithras

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #2203 on: April 07, 2016, 12:37:46 am »

Last game I won I was LA xibala. I summoned some banes but I basically got by with zots (the 1 resource ones when I could 'afford' them) I sank all my gems into castings of darkness, curse of stones and iron bane. All of which are in the same spell school. It doesn't matter if your guys are crap when you basically bring the enemy down to your level with darkness and destruction. Also EA and LA xibala are monster expanders. It turns out that the indies in forest provinces are the ones that are easiest to kill with zots. I'm not saying that killing a province with heavy cavalry with 120 zots is gold efficient, but it sure is troop recruit slots efficient. It was a 40 turn game, my army size graph trended down for three of those turns. It was beautiful.
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Frumple

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #2204 on: April 07, 2016, 07:49:53 am »

Totally theorycrafting here (IGNORE ME!) - but would it be better to send a SC by themselves, or with a couple of demon bodyguards?

I'm 50% concerned that if the bodyguards die, the SC will flee, and 50% concerned that if I don't give my SC bodyguards, that he'll get killed before he decides it's time to leave.
Actual SCs usually work better solo, yeah, if they're not being used to supplement an army. As you kinda' noticed, routing is a pretty serious issue with SCs that bring friends along. If you're going to have bodyguards, you'll probably want more than just a couple, heh, unless those are rather incredibly beefy bodyguards (i.e. you're just using packs of SCs instead of solo ones, which is just fine if you can afford it :P).

That said, if you're intending for it to retreat anyway, it might not be that big of a deal if they bug out early. It's mostly a problem when you don't intend for that, and/or there's no escape routes available.
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