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Author Topic: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!  (Read 358791 times)

wer6

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1740 on: December 03, 2015, 08:28:41 am »

Kind of been out of the loop for about two months, anything interesting happened yet?
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Cthulhu

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1741 on: December 03, 2015, 08:57:38 am »

The AI has exploded and the explanation of what exactly is wrong is apparently simplified to the point of being misleading, so we really have no idea how it's broken, except that it's bad.

Game is kill until it's fixed, which will probably be forever, and our suggestions on what to do about it are useless because we don't actually know what's happening.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 09:01:20 am by Cthulhu »
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gimli

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1742 on: December 03, 2015, 10:13:17 am »

I don't want to comment on the (known?) AI problem, since we don't have detailed informations.
However it's hard to understand the devs with regard to their way of communication with the fans. They can't be arsed to tell us that what is happening for weeks or months?...at least the KS page should be updated on a more regular basis.
This isn't the proper way to get more customers, that is for sure. [& it's a good way to annoy those who have already spent their money on the project.]  ::)
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 10:16:43 am by gimli »
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ThtblovesDF

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1743 on: December 03, 2015, 12:00:49 pm »

For a total shutdown of communication, with no feedback at all and 21 days or more passing without a word - the forum did behave extremly well. A 30 secound pause to post "got issues, working on it" would have saved a lot.

We all appriciate Josh's hard work, but no talky, no good : I
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 12:45:18 pm by ThtblovesDF »
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dennislp3

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1744 on: December 03, 2015, 12:19:14 pm »

Does this thread have a point any more? I see it as doing nothing but breeding and multiplying negativity and it's getting really annoying because everyone keeps rehashing the exact same thing over and over.

I recommend people find something else to do while waiting and maybe we can get this thread back on some sort of track when actual news comes out maybe?
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Neonivek

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1745 on: December 03, 2015, 12:20:06 pm »

Does this thread have a point any more? I see it as doing nothing but breeding and multiplying negativity and it's getting really annoying because everyone keeps rehashing the exact same thing over and over.

I recommend people find something else to do while waiting and maybe we can get this thread back on some sort of track when actual news comes out maybe?

I am personally waiting for more info

The dang evil tease they did WAY earlier has got me hooked :P but alas they aren't going to be putting out info for a long time.

But honestly I am not bothered in the least about this negativity probably because I am not married to the game. I actually like hearing what people are thinking and the rationalities and irrationalities behind it.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 12:22:27 pm by Neonivek »
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nenjin

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1746 on: December 03, 2015, 12:40:43 pm »

I'm with dennislp3 more or less. The thread has a point but if all anyone is doing while waiting for updates is trashing the devs and implying they could do a better job somehow, there's probably better ways for people to spend their time.
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ThtblovesDF

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1747 on: December 03, 2015, 12:46:44 pm »

Discuss this then if discussions about the delays are uncomfortable to you.



A Few Notes on the Various AIs

Unread postby Nyarlathosean » Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:52 pm
A small aside from the bug-fixing: In the course of answering questions about the AI issue, Josh gave me a rundown of the various kinds of AIs and basic information on how they operate. Some of this is old news to those who follow the AUA threads, but that information is scattered in bits and pieces among 2600+ posts, so I thought I'd work up a summary of the different AIs.

Hero AIs work off a system of Threat. Threat is generated by your Agents' activities (influenced by both your Agents' Danger and Profile) and by Quests. In general, the higher the Threat value, the more visible it is to Heroes (the Threate can be "seen" from farther away) and the more priority it has. Threats that are things that the Hero "wants" to take care of are also prioritized, as are Threats that correspond with the Hero's area of expertise. (Sage-type Heroes won't go marching off to challenge that orc warlord to single combat, for example.) Later on, as Clues accumulate and your Names are revealed, they become a bit more proactive and work to strengthen themselves and nearby areas against your Old One's influence and abilities, as well as hunt down your Agents and thwart your plans.

Champion AIs work in much the same way as Hero AIs except they additionally have a strong desire to follow their Leader's wishes and advance their Nation's causes.

The Chosen One AI is a special case that works like a normal Hero AI, but additionally can see Prophecy Quests (the Chosen One is the only one who can see these), and gradually acquires the desire to "Accept His/Her Destiny" and prepare to challenge and defeat you.

Notable AIs are almost entirely reactive and generally take actions only in response to events happening in their POI that directly concern them. For example, a noble may begin a Plot in response to dissension at court, or he may respond to another noble trying to discredit him by challenging the other noble to a debate or a duel...or just arranging a convenient assassination. They have almost no capability for proactive actions on their own initiative, although they do have desires and goals and frustrating those for long enough may rouse them to action.

Leader AIs are primarily reactive, but not to the extreme of the Notable AIs. Most of the time they concern themselves with the day-to-day running of their Nation, managing Resources, establishing Trade, quelling the occasional angry mob, and so forth. As information comes in and/or new incidents arise, they take Political actions (which if you have Influence at court you can sway what they do), issue orders to their Champions, give commands to their armies, and take a more active role. Leaders, like Heroes, will become more proactive as Global Awareness of your Old One's growing threat rises and will take steps to protect/defend their Nation from your evil grasp. There is also a "Balance of Power" mechanic that causes Leader AIs to keep tabs on other Leader AIs; if a Leader gets too powerful, other Leaders start to view him or her more warily and may take steps to thwart that Leader's further ambitions.

Military AIs work within the chain of command system to accomplish their Leader's military goals. Depending on the size and nature of the controlling Nation, the chain of command may be very short (orc warbands) or more complex (Cylarian and Arden typically have a couple of generals that oversee the overall theater of war and then some lesser commanders that are in charge of specific forces). Military AIs constantly "chatter" amongst themselves to keep abreast of the changing situations on the battlefield, plan ahead for when and where reinforcements are likely to be needed, know when to press the attack or to retreat, etc. Commanders also have their own personal desires, such as wanting Glory and Prestige, that may conflict with their duties.

The Alliance AI only comes into being once an Alliance is formed. It acts as a unified "central command" for the Alliance and is far more interested in seeing you (or another Rival) sealed away than other AIs. It has access to all the resources and armies of its member states and can generally use them as it sees fit, although demanding too much of a constituent nation will lead to internal strife. The member nations' Leader AIs do not go away, and there is opportunity for fracturing an Alliance by setting its members' desires at odds with the Alliance's.

Rival Old One AIs are the most complex, since they are "playing" the game alongside you. Some Rivals choose a sphere of influence and mainly work within it. For example, Dagon tends to favor bringing the Deep Ones over to his side, establishing supremacy on and in the seas, seeking particular artifacts of interest, and gaining footholds on the coasts and islands. If you leave those areas alone, Dagon will probably not clash with you for a while (until your global threat starts becoming obvious). On the other hand, if you are actively interfering with his plans, he'll start seeing you as a larger threat and begin working to actively counter you, and will be more willing to leave his "preferred" range of options to do so. Other Rival Old Ones, such as Hastur, do not have a preconceived plan in mind at the start of the game. Instead, they look at the world (and your actions in it) and try to identify weak areas where they can establish themselves. They do this roughly in the same way you do, by Infiltration. Once the Rival has a target, he decides what he wants to do with that area (raise an undead army, drive the inhabitants to madness, open a portal to the Underworld there) and takes steps to implement the chosen goal. In addition, Rivals also try to determine YOUR intentions ("Belial is trying to control the Wyver Republic") and decide what to do about those - whether you're not worth bothering with, or whether it should do things to counteract you like getting their corrupted general promoted in that nation's army, corrupting a nearby rival kingdom to maintain a balance of power, establishing their Agent at court to negate your influence, or even outright destroying the place. There is also a system of synergistic threats to guide the Rivals: for example, if you (or another Rival) control a bunch of ley lines and then move to reactivate the Sentinel, a Rival would consider that much more threatening than holding the ley lines alone or reactivating the Sentinel alone.
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Scoops Novel

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1748 on: December 03, 2015, 05:32:30 pm »

Bruv, pm me when this is released and i'll update the thread title
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gimli

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1749 on: December 08, 2015, 10:12:56 am »

Small update. [Thx for sharing the info with the non-backers SangerZonvolt.]
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ThtblovesDF

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1750 on: December 10, 2015, 11:30:12 am »

There have been some updates on the backer forum, explaining some details and things are moving along.
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ArKFallen

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1751 on: December 10, 2015, 11:47:37 am »

There have been some updates on the backer forum, explaining some details and things are moving along.
If or when people find it prudent to extrapolate it will be appreciated.
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Yodamaster

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1752 on: December 10, 2015, 12:00:36 pm »

There have been some updates on the backer forum, explaining some details and things are moving along.
If or when people find it prudent to extrapolate it will be appreciated.

At the moment they're requesting that we don't share it with people outside of the backer forum. But yeah as already said, things are moving along, and I'm personally encouraged by the updates.
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Cthulhu

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1753 on: December 10, 2015, 12:38:42 pm »

The most we can really say is don't worry, it turns out Josh isn't a horrible programmer who walked into obvious problems.  The actual issues are more complicated and more reasonable for a skilled programmer to run into than the AI recursively calling itself.
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i2amroy

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1754 on: December 10, 2015, 10:07:33 pm »

The most we can really say is don't worry, it turns out Josh isn't a horrible programmer who walked into obvious problems.  The actual issues are more complicated and more reasonable for a skilled programmer to run into than the AI recursively calling itself.
Indeed, as a computer science major I'll say that the problems he ran into are ones that you could still see very easily showing up even in large company-based development. The fact that he's figured out what's causing the problem is very encouraging to see as a programmer; very often those type of bugs are the ones that end up with titles like "The game crashes randomly" and then sit unsolved in the bug tracker for years, since they are usually extremely difficult to diagnose and track down.
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