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Author Topic: The Unpopular/Controversial Ideas Thread.  (Read 59550 times)

Ziusudra

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Re: The Unpopular/Controversial Ideas Thread.
« Reply #720 on: July 04, 2021, 04:18:56 pm »

Bacon is greatly overrated.
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dragdeler

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Re: The Unpopular/Controversial Ideas Thread.
« Reply #721 on: July 05, 2021, 06:50:07 am »

 :o >:(


ok maybe its reputation is too good
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Frumple

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Re: The Unpopular/Controversial Ideas Thread.
« Reply #722 on: July 05, 2021, 10:51:37 am »

Bacon is greatly overrated.
I've found the witch!

No need to keep looking, everyone can go home or order natural prophylactics as desired.
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Grim Portent

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Re: The Unpopular/Controversial Ideas Thread.
« Reply #723 on: July 07, 2021, 02:42:04 pm »

Had an idea rattling around my head for an unworkable thing that I'm calling 'Hypocrisy Laws' and figured this is the best place to put it.

Gist of it is that if you belong to an organisation, be it corporate, political, cultural or spiritual which holds certain values, or publically state certain values as a private citizen, then acting in contradiction with those values is a felony punishable by either the prescribed punishment from the source material you derive the values from, or a misdemeanour felony, punishment waived if you recant the principles you violated at trial.

Examples would be someone who is publically pro-racial equality being caught being racist in private, or an abrahamic fundamentalist man being caught with a gay prostitute. In the former case the punishment would probably be a fine and social ostracisation, because that's generally speaking the expected punishment for racism, while the latter case would be punished according to the rules layed out in the religious text they follow, which IIRC in most abrahamic texts is death. Either could get out of their punishment by admitting publically that they don't really hold to the principles they claim to.
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anewaname

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Re: The Unpopular/Controversial Ideas Thread.
« Reply #724 on: July 23, 2021, 03:54:36 am »

Had an idea rattling around my head for an unworkable thing that I'm calling 'Hypocrisy Laws' and figured this is the best place to put it.

Gist of it is that if you belong to an organisation, be it corporate, political, cultural or spiritual which holds certain values, or publically state certain values as a private citizen, then acting in contradiction with those values is a felony punishable by either the prescribed punishment from the source material you derive the values from, or a misdemeanour felony, punishment waived if you recant the principles you violated at trial.

Examples would be someone who is publically pro-racial equality being caught being racist in private, or an abrahamic fundamentalist man being caught with a gay prostitute. In the former case the punishment would probably be a fine and social ostracisation, because that's generally speaking the expected punishment for racism, while the latter case would be punished according to the rules layed out in the religious text they follow, which IIRC in most abrahamic texts is death. Either could get out of their punishment by admitting publically that they don't really hold to the principles they claim to.
Something like a "list-of-crimes-and-their-punishments" exists in most non-corporate organizations already, but their problem is that these organizations are usually legally bound by state, federal, or international laws, so that ostracism is the most the group can legally use against members that transgress. Ostracism can be financially and emotionally devastating, since it often involves family and/or vested assets.

I think this is all part of the "separation of church and state" discussion, where the government is not allowed to accept a religion's laws as its own (in the USA's First Amendment, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.”). And in governments where one religion has become embedded in the government, you will see other religions being ostracized within that government and nation. And to further complicate it, the traditional religions have been joined by the -isms ideologies (this short political cartoon is a gem, where every image shows a hypocrisy that some people currently rant about and that others accept as their privilege). When the "-ism ideologies" get embedded in a government, you see members of that ideology ostracizing members of other ideologies.

I think my take on it is, no group should have control over those who are not a part of their group and as a corollary, all sub-groups of a group should have political representation within the larger group. There are always people who seek political power for the intention of ostracizing sub-groups that they do not represent. They will always be hypocrites and they will always be supported by those who stand to gain financially from the ostracism.
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McTraveller

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Re: The Unpopular/Controversial Ideas Thread.
« Reply #725 on: July 23, 2021, 02:11:11 pm »

People are too selfish, spoiled, and and have no work ethic on top of that.  People want a job, but they don't want to work or something.  Or worse, they want to get paid and not even have a job.  But I don't know what you can even do with that money, because everything has a staff shortage.

We have a worker shortage (not just in the USA, but all over the world), and according to articles restaurant workers are literally walking out in the middle of shifts.  It's a self-fulfilling downward spiral: working conditions are more difficult than usual because of a shortage of staff. So let's walk out and make the shortage more acute.

I'm going to have no tears, only anger, for those people that complain that all their local stores closed because they had no customers because they had no workers because those people refused to work through a difficult time.  I mean around where I live, wages and hiring bonuses are pretty high for every single grocery store, fast food, and sit-down restaurant in the area. Every restaurant and local shop (hardware stores, etc.) has reduced hours, too, because they can't get workers.  So I can't even run errands after work, because stores are closed.
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wierd

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Re: The Unpopular/Controversial Ideas Thread.
« Reply #726 on: July 23, 2021, 02:27:30 pm »

Hmm.. I disagree with this view.

More, people want work that is PERSONALLY satisfying or rewarding.  That reward may or may not be monetarily based.


I had a conversation at work about 4 days ago about this-- I asserted that if I somehow became a multimillionaire tomorrow (and thus, with proper investments, never need to work again for financial reasons), I would STILL seek employment-- Most likely, I would seek a low-tier position at a computer repair place, doing bench monkey work, simply for the mental stimulation of the kinds of "wow" people can do to their computers to break them.  I would not have anxiety about the job-- losing it, or needing to quit it because the boss/management are assholes would not have any fear on my part-- being a multimillionaire. I would not NEED the job for anything other than mental stimulation and enjoyment, and any such attempts at muscling me would be met with attestations of that fact, and my walking out (quite blissfully) if they could not take that hint.

Mostly, the business owner (and merchant capitalist) classes want to pretend that this kind of job seeking can never exist, because a situation where that is routinely possible (which is what a world with basic income safety-net would look like) would mean that they could not routinely ABUSE their workers for profit.  What they pretend, and what is reality, are not the same thing however.

Should the business owners and merchant capitalists finally get the clue that they can no longer ABUSE their workers, they will find that their employment situation is quite tractable.
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Frumple

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Re: The Unpopular/Controversial Ideas Thread.
« Reply #727 on: July 23, 2021, 02:37:55 pm »

People aren't refusing to work through difficult times, they're refusing to work through difficult times while getting paid and treated like shit. This isn't some sort of mystery, folks walk off from restaurant work (among other things) because the pay is generally shit (even after the milquetoast incentives business owners are sometimes offering in the face of workers finally starting to tell them where to shove it), the treatment (usually both from customers and their bosses) is shit, the hours are often inconsistent horseshit, and all that on top of the whole ~goddamn plague~ thing.

The folks acting selfish and spoiled are largely the bloody bosses, wanting to continue to squeeze blood from the stones they were used to wringing dry. People have their limits, and eventually all that shit piles up and they figure it's time to try something else.

It's about damn time it started happening more, ha.
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McTraveller

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Re: The Unpopular/Controversial Ideas Thread.
« Reply #728 on: July 23, 2021, 03:06:31 pm »

I guess I come from a different worldview.  When times are tough, that's when you put up with more crap, because if you don't, society crumbles even faster.  History shows this over and over again.  When things recover, then you can ask for that raise, etc.

If you expect great rewards during a time of crisis, and stop trying deal with the crisis while it's going on, society crumbles because generally those rewards don't exist to be handed out in the first place.

I believe situations can only be improved by being better than the situation deserves.
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wierd

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Re: The Unpopular/Controversial Ideas Thread.
« Reply #729 on: July 23, 2021, 03:10:08 pm »

The issue, is that things have been "OK" for a very long time, but the requests for "that raise" have always and systemically been met with "NO, and I will seek a replacement for you in India if you ask again."

Now that shit hit the fan, and the employer is no longer able to threaten outsourcing to india, the bill has come due on all those "Should have been given a raise, and you never fucking did, because you were too fucking greedy, you asshole" situations.  The leverage is in the hands of the worker, because the employer cannot replace them, because there are no workers to replace them *WITH*.

Now, it is "YOu *WILL* give me that raise, and you *WILL* fix these shit work conditions, or you *WILL* go out of business."

The employers are crying very bitter tears about it.

No, I am not ENTIRELY unsympathetic for the employers:  They genuinely HAVE painted themselves into a corner from which there is no escape.  However, the people who are holding the brush that did the painting, are they themselves.

It is OBSCENELY WELL DOCUMENTED that US workers have-- ACROSS THE WHOLE GODDAMN BOARD-- NOT been getting pay increases that are asymptotic with inflation, and non-asymptotic in the NEGATIVE DIRECTION for the trend.  Basically, americans have been getting paid the functional equivalent of "Less and Less" every decade, routinely, for the past 70 years.  What workers are demanding now, really is just "Actually workable wages."  Not "Deal breaking wages."

The ISSUE, is that the employers have made a house of cards based on the presumption that this trend could continue forever.

It could not, and now, will not.

Is it likely to crash a good portion of the economy? YES.

Is that painful?  YES.

Is it necessary to fix this problem?  Sadly-- YES.  Being "asked politely during the good times" has been OBSCENELY WELL DOCUMENTED to NOT WORK.  The long-standing argument from the employer has been "But we paid what was industry standard rates!!!! We had to stay COMPETITIVE!!!"   Well--Under these NEW pressures, MOST of their competition-- SPECIFICALLY-- the ones that *CANNOT* (*or will not) pay the newly demanded wages, in order to secure the now scarce employment pool, WILL GO UNDER.  This means that their depressed wage scales will no longer be tabulated as part of same said "Industry standard wages!!", and the new wages that were demanded will become the norm.  The shortage of labor will remain, which means that it is impossible for the remaining employers to become monopolies of the market (because it will not be possible to satisfy all demand.)  This means that there will be a BOOMING market to meet that demand, at the newly adjusted price structure curve intersections.

The market will BRUTALLY ADJUST.

« Last Edit: July 23, 2021, 03:27:46 pm by wierd »
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McTraveller

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Re: The Unpopular/Controversial Ideas Thread.
« Reply #730 on: July 23, 2021, 03:29:55 pm »

My local restaurant isn't outsourced to India... and they definitely don't have the revenues to have paid 20% higher than they were paying in the past.  Local businesses do not have exponential growth; they hit capacity  and if lucky sustain that level.

Incidentally no amount of non-national organized labor will cause the big-box companies to go out of business.  So all that walking out of restaurants does is kill the small local shops and further entrench the megacorps.  Even franchises - if you happened to have a locally-owned franchise (which is hard enough), if you put that local owner out of business the only thing that's going to come in is a conglomerate that owns many locations, which is more abusive, etc.

I wouldn't cringe so much if the people who walked out of these restaurants started their own competing restaurant instead, but I don't see that.  Even with past abuses (which I concede, especially for "low-level" jobs) I don't see the excuse for not starting your own business. Either you accept the "abuse" of employers because you don't want to take on the personal risk of running a business, or you take that risk. I don't believe you can have it both ways.  I've known too many people who have tried to start their own businesses, some succeeded and some failed, to say that this isn't possible.

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wierd

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Re: The Unpopular/Controversial Ideas Thread.
« Reply #731 on: July 23, 2021, 03:39:50 pm »

Here's the deal---


Customers claim they wont pay the requisite higher prices, needed to meet the requisite higher demanded wages.  This is untrue.  They might go out to eat LESS OFTEN, but they will STILL go out to eat.

This is why demand is modeled as a curve, with potential areas of intersection.  The customer is currently accustomed to bargain basement prices, driven by the absurd drive to EXPAND!!! EXPANNNNDDD!!!!! EXXXXXPAAAANNNNDDDD!!!! from the employers.  They accomplished that, by cutting their costs--- which is a fancy way of saying they were systemically fucking over their employees for a very long time.  Since the customers got used to the ever lower prices (and since they themselves were likewise getting paid less and less and less, due to the across the whole goddamn board trend in pay for the whole damn nation, and thus also less and less able/willing to pay the older, larger prices anyway!), this was a "rush to the bottom"

That kind of trend cannot ever continue forever.

When the companies offering 1$ value meals go under, and more to the point-- the remaining employers can no longer offer unreasonable/unlivable wages-- people will become much more willing (and suddenly much more capable!) of paying the requisitely higher costs for the ACTUAL VALUE of the products and services they are purchasing.

That is when the boom on unmet demand will spur new businesses.
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Rolan7

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Re: The Unpopular/Controversial Ideas Thread.
« Reply #732 on: July 23, 2021, 03:40:34 pm »

If restaurants can't afford to pay their employees properly, then under capitalism they should charge more for their service or simply cease to exist.  Maybe renting a Downton Abbey experience where you're waited on an elaborate ritual isn't particularly lucrative.

It's certainly ridiculous that the onus should be on individual workers to suffer low wages and grueling work just to keep the business around.  I get the idea of working hard to save one's nation, but employees owe their bosses nothing.  Essential workers went above and beyond the call of duty during the worst months of the pandemic, to keep our nations working, and were rewarded with words rather than substance.  Owners sacrificed NOTHING, and I am not sympathetic that they "earned" less than they otherwise would have.

I expect people to pull together during a crisis - specifically, I want the people with all the power to use that power positively.  They did not, they guilted the least powerful into working even harder.

Eh, wierd said it better but that's my 2 cents.
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McTraveller

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Re: The Unpopular/Controversial Ideas Thread.
« Reply #733 on: July 23, 2021, 04:46:12 pm »

Here's the deal---

Customers claim they wont pay the requisite higher prices, needed to meet the requisite higher demanded wages.  This is untrue.  They might go out to eat LESS OFTEN, but they will STILL go out to eat.


True, but that will only result in more money to pay workers if the reduction in quantity purchased is proportionally less than the increase in price. I don't know the elasticity of demand for restaurants, but it's likely that restaurants have already priced for maximum revenue - otherwise they could already increase prices, get lower demand, but higher overall revenue.  So why don't they?  Do you really think these businesses are intentionally leaving money on the table?

The better argument is that more of the net income of companies needs to go to employees instead of owners.

Or even better, move to make all people owners in the first place, instead of just "employees."  Give people some vested interest in the success of their specific employer, and maybe they would treat it better.  Sure that can come from the employers themselves.  I'd prefer this over UBI, which kind of makes everyone owners of everything - that sounds good but there is no specific interest in the success of your current employer if you choose to have one.

Much blame is on the corporate leaders here, but I don't think the working class is really all that innocent either. I'm lucky (which is unfair, I know) to have an employer whose vision and implementation of that vision is something I enjoy and believe in and I want them to succeed. I did have to leave my previous employer to do this, by the way, because the leadership prior to that sold us to a company in whose vision I did not believe.  But when I did that I didn't reduce the labor pool - I gave my labor somewhere else.

So I will refine my argument: I don't have trouble with people quitting shitty jobs - I have trouble with them quitting a shitty job and not looking for (or creating) a better one.  And no, sorry, I don't believe that "but there are no good jobs" or "all owners are greedy assholes" is true.
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wierd

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Re: The Unpopular/Controversial Ideas Thread.
« Reply #734 on: July 23, 2021, 05:12:54 pm »

Again, you have a downward pressing force (MAKE MORE MONEY!!!!), pushing down on wages across the entire economy. (All wages, in all vocations, not keeping pace with inflation, at the same time that record profits are being made.)  This results in less available currency in the hands of consumers, who then are less and less willing/able to pay higher prices. This then directs business owners to lower prices further, to attract customers--- with an ever downward spiral.

The deviation from that spiral before we hit actual rock-bottom, and implode the entire economy--- eg, where we are now, where people are saying NO to the lower wages, and forcing a course correction--- (which will ultimately result in many smaller businesses going under, which I never contested)-- is the best outcome.


Will it be a fun happy time for everyone? FUCK NO.  Will it make many businesses go out of business? FUCK YES/



Here is the thing though.  Yes, the big multinationals will be the one who survive-- HOWEVER-- they cannot meet the resulting demand, even though they have no competition, because meeting the demand requires workers, and the workers ARE NOT RETURNING TO WORK.  That means that there is unserviced demand in the economy, and thus OPPORTUNITY.

In order for people to make good on that opportunity, they need seed money. Seed money comes from 2 places--- Either save money, and take a risk-- OR-- Take a loan, and take a risk.

In either situation you need a cash flow that can either satisfy the savings needs, or can satisfy the risk interest of the bank.

In either situation, therefore, you need the higher wages, BEFORE you can work to capture that opportunity.



So, there will be an immediate bottom-drop in food services, and other convenience industries, as labor blows away, and wages spike up to actually reasonable levels. This will FORCE the multinationals to raise their prices.  THis will force customers to accept the higher prices.  THis will also have the effect of raising the "Industry standard wage", and the market will adjust.


The people wanting food and other convenience services are not going to just die.  They are going to still exist. That demand will be there.  What will change, is the pricing curve.
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