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Which team did you play in the last game?

Glorious Arstotzka
- 17 (16%)
Glorious Moskurg
- 13 (12.3%)
Ingloriously Didn't Play
- 76 (71.7%)

Total Members Voted: 106


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Author Topic: Intercontinental Arms Race: Finale  (Read 573577 times)

Zanzetkuken The Great

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Autumn 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #4215 on: June 23, 2017, 06:21:33 am »

Okay, managed to find a mention of them being used in amphibious assaults...way back in turn 5 over a month and a half ago, only as a side note, and never since.  Kinda annoying, that.
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Sheb

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Autumn 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #4216 on: June 23, 2017, 06:33:37 am »

We're fighting on land now. Will disrupting their navy even help?
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Taricus

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #4217 on: June 23, 2017, 06:33:55 am »

Quote from: UFS-CL-41 'Cavalier Class' Cruiser
In response to the Forenian navy's wishes for a screening ship that doesn't die when the enemy gives it a mean look, the Cavalier class is designed to provide a much more solid screen ship that can actually handle combat without sinking. Using a scheme built off of all or nothing armour, the ships armour is heaviest on the citadel and magazines, being tough enough to resist the cannalan 6" shells. The deck is layered in two armour layers; one a a sacrificial layer to set off bombs and a second as splinter protection to keep most of the crew safe from bomb/shell shrapnel. The rest of the ship it still armoured; primarily against 3" cannons to prevent 'anklebiters' sinking the ship. Furthermore, the ship is highly compartmentalised; experience from the archer shows that the two leading causes of a 'ship kill' are flooding and an ammo explosion.

The Armament of the ship is all located within the citadel, the primary armament being eight 'compensator' cannons, downsized from the overcompensator's 300mm to 150mm, in four in turrets arranged into superfiring positions at the front and back of the citadel. Along with this, eight Bumblebee guns are mounted in two-gun dual purpose turrets, positioned to provide optimum anti-air and anti small ship coverage, as well as being retained in the armoured citadel to protect their magazines. Furthermore four quad AC-18 mounts are positioned on the ship to provide close air deterrent. Finally, the ship mounts two triple launchers, proper launchers, of dolphin torpedoes upsized to 53cm, codenamed 'Orca'.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 12:02:03 pm by Taricus »
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Kashyyk

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Autumn 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #4218 on: June 23, 2017, 06:47:36 am »

Quote from: Designs
0 UFA-SAB-41 Speedy Altitude Bomber :
0 UFN-AIPS-41 Submarine :
0 UFAF-A41 "Turbohaast" :
0 UF-GEV-41 "Ekaterina" :
1 UFS-CL-41 'Cavalier Class' Cruiser : Kashyyk

Currently, I'm in favour of the Cavalier, as it addresses the navy like I've wanted to for a while, and has a high chance of leaving the revision free for a ground based improvement (Return of Project Blood Eagle anyone?)
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Sheb

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Autumn 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #4219 on: June 23, 2017, 06:48:28 am »

The question is: what will we gain from a naval improvement this turn? We need to kick them out of the jungle more than anything.
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Kashyyk

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Autumn 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #4220 on: June 23, 2017, 06:51:37 am »

It has a chance of reducing their naval advantage from Godlike to Overpowered. The GM explicitly said that the gains they made were because they had such a strong naval advantage, and we really need to start noticing that to ignore the sea on a predominantly sea based map is literal insanity.

As you may have noticed, their ships are so good now that they have evened the air battle at sea as well.
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NUKE9.13

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Autumn 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #4221 on: June 23, 2017, 06:54:33 am »

Hey, the anti-boat people where right.

The cheapening of Cannalan naval forces would have prevented your cruiser from lowering Cannalan naval domination. Your plan would have failed.
I mean, if you want to be pedantic about it, yeah, a cruiser wouldn't have lowered their naval advantage. But it would almost certainly have prevented it from increasing.

We're fighting on land now. Will disrupting their navy even help?
Yes it will. On the mountain island, at the very least, it will prevent our forces from being (almost) completely cut off from supplies. It may not be as important in the jungle on the defence, but if we want to retake the beaches, we can't have their entire navy sitting off the coast unmolested.

UFS-CL-41 'Cavalier Class' Cruiser
Trying to upgrade our torpedoes whilst designing an all new ship may be overambitious.
Isn't the letter code for a cruiser CC?
I'd make the main guns 200mm, and reduce the number to six. 150mm might not be enough for a sure kill, and besides, halving the size of the Overcompensator will be a bit difficult.
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Taricus

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Autumn 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #4222 on: June 23, 2017, 07:01:14 am »

200mm is too large for a light cruiser. And downsizing, by word of sensei, is easily done with no increase of difficulty. And CA is for heavy cruisers, while CL is for light cruisers. The ship is too small to be a heavy so CL is used.
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Zanzetkuken The Great

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Autumn 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #4223 on: June 23, 2017, 07:04:47 am »

Trying to upgrade our torpedoes whilst designing an all new ship may be overambitious.
Isn't the letter code for a cruiser CC?
I'd make the main guns 200mm, and reduce the number to six. 150mm might not be enough for a sure kill, and besides, halving the size of the Overcompensator will be a bit difficult.

Honestly, for the Cruiser, we may want to look at the Khorne's armament.  Due to our resources, we can go up to 6 Ore, 4 Oil while still remaining in the 'Expensive' cost level, which is what it's price is.  Considering I think Taricus's idea is similar to one of their 5 Ore's, it may be a good thing to look into.
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Wolfhunter107

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Zanzetkuken The Great

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Autumn 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #4225 on: June 23, 2017, 07:29:16 am »

Quote from: UFS-CL-41 Pattern B 'Knight Class' Cruiser
In response to the Forenian navy's wishes for a screening ship that doesn't die when the enemy gives it a mean look, the Cavalier class is designed to provide a much more solid screen ship that can actually handle combat without sinking. Using a scheme built off of all or nothing armour, the ships armour is heaviest on the citadel and magazines, being tough enough to resist the cannalan 6" shells. The deck is layered in two armour layers; one a a sacrificial layer to set off bombs and a second as splinter protection to keep most of the crew safe from bomb/shell shrapnel. The rest of the ship it still armoured; primarily against 3" cannons to prevent 'anklebiters' sinking the ship. Furthermore, the ship is highly compartmentalised; experience from the archer shows that the two leading causes of a 'ship kill' are flooding and an ammo explosion.

The Armament of the ship is all located within the citadel, the primary armament being twelve 'compensator' cannons, downsized from the overcompensator's 300mm to 150mm, in six turrets arranged into superfiring positions at the front and back of the citadel.  The turrets have a narrowing number of guns, the two closest to the citadel having three guns, the second closest having two per, and the outermost only having one per, in an effort to reduce the bulk of the ship while keeping the same number of guns.  Along with this, eight Bumblebee guns are mounted in two-gun dual purpose turrets, positioned to provide optimum anti-air and anti small ship coverage, as well as being retained in the armoured citadel to protect their magazines.

A bit heavier armed than Taricus's version, but still has a bit less than the Khorne.  Given that has the bulk to hold 18 6-inch guns and only costs 6 ore, 4 oil, this should be safely within that expense slot.  Some people may want a Cheap expense level ship, but if you are wanting that, then Taricus's ship likely won't be what you want, as it is heavier armed than their Santos ship, something which costs 5 Ore, so his would be expensive anyway.  May as well get the most bang for our buck.  The interior is compartmentalized, with sections easily able to be sealed off to prevent flooding.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 01:08:26 pm by Zanzetkuken The Great »
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10ebbor10

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Autumn 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #4226 on: June 23, 2017, 07:36:08 am »

Hey, the anti-boat people where right.

The cheapening of Cannalan naval forces would have prevented your cruiser from lowering Cannalan naval domination. Your plan would have failed.
I mean, if you want to be pedantic about it, yeah, a cruiser wouldn't have lowered their naval advantage. But it would almost certainly have prevented it from increasing.

Quoting stuff out of context is poor form.

I'll quote the next sentence of my post.

Quote
We just couldn't predict that GM would deviate from his written rules, and suddenly introduce a new tier of naval domination for the Cannalan's to screw us over with. Kind of unfair really.

I assumed that naval dominance could not rise because it was maxed out already. Those rules got changed to make way for Cannalan naval dominance.

« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 07:37:55 am by 10ebbor10 »
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NUKE9.13

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Autumn 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #4228 on: June 23, 2017, 07:47:21 am »

200mm is too large for a light cruiser. And downsizing, by word of sensei, is easily done with no increase of difficulty. And CA is for heavy cruisers, while CL is for light cruisers. The ship is too small to be a heavy so CL is used.
Hmm. I figured we wanted a heavy cruiser, or at least a medium one, that is actually capable of defeating many of their ships in combat.
The downsizing- yeah, okay, but there are limits. I mean, obviously you can't downsize a 300mm gun to 30mm, the mechanisms required are just totally different. That's an extreme example, but you get my point- 'free' downsizing must have a limit. And I suspect 50% may be over that limit. Not way over- but still, you know. Better safe than sorry.

UFS-CL-41 Pattern B 'Knight Class' Cruiser

A bit heavier armed than Taricus's version, but still has a bit less than the Khorne.  Given that has the bulk to hold 18 6-inch guns and only costs 6 ore, 4 oil, this should be safely within that expense slot.  Some people may want a Cheap expense level ship, but if you are wanting that, then Taricus's ship likely won't be what you want, as it is heavier armed than their Santos ship, something which costs 5 Ore, so his would be expensive anyway.  May as well get the most bang for our buck.
Hmm. Their Khorne, though, is definitely intended as a 'big' ship, not a fast one. Making something lighter than it has advantages beyond merely the cost. (Which you've done, so I guess I like it)
Although, you're still trying to upgrade our torpedoes.

Hey, the anti-boat people where right.

The cheapening of Cannalan naval forces would have prevented your cruiser from lowering Cannalan naval domination. Your plan would have failed.
I mean, if you want to be pedantic about it, yeah, a cruiser wouldn't have lowered their naval advantage. But it would almost certainly have prevented it from increasing.

Quoting stuff out of context is poor form.

I'll quote the next sentence of my post.

Quote
We just couldn't predict that GM would deviate from his written rules, and suddenly introduce a new tier of naval domination for the Cannalan's to screw us over with. Kind of unfair really.

I assumed that naval dominance could not rise because it was maxed out already. Those rules got changed to make way for Cannalan naval dominance.
...right, you have a reason for why you were wrong, but that doesn't make you not wrong. Not that there's anything wrong with being wrong.

Also, as people have pointed out, we did know about the possibility of a Massive Naval Advantage, since Cannala had one on turn 1.

...anyway, this doesn't matter now. We now all know for definite that a Massive NA exists and what it does, so we should do something about it. Refusing to design a ship/other explicitly naval design at this point is unwise.
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evictedSaint

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Autumn 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #4229 on: June 23, 2017, 07:53:59 am »

I am honestly pretty dissappointed that it's required to absolutely control the ocean to win.  That's another advantage for Cannala, and it's entirely possible for them to out-right win now.  All they have to do is focus on their navy and maintain the lead, which they can do with their superior naval design bonus.  I...honestly don't see any path to victory, it's like we're playing an interstellar arms race againt fucking aliens with flying saucers, and our starting ship was the god damn Challenger.  How can we possibly catch up, especially when they have better everything and get 2 credits for every 1 we get?
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