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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 469961 times)

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1710 on: March 10, 2019, 02:26:52 am »

So...snatching is now officially a villaneous behaviour. And player adventurers can indulge villaneous behaviour themselves...does this mean our long-held dreams of playing a proper band of goblin snatchers is now possible?
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Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1711 on: March 10, 2019, 03:09:18 am »

I think Egan was making a 'oh, DF is sooo detailed, even x has twenty sliders'-joke, because most people aren't considering sexuality in terms of commitment for example. :)

No, Egan was just matter-of-factly describing how Dwarf Fortress handles orientation.

therahedwig

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1712 on: March 10, 2019, 04:02:58 am »

If they were just matter of fact stating it, then there wouldn't have been a 'wonder how people will react when they see how complex sexuality in df is' statement. That part is the joke, not the ratios themselves. But whatever.

Edit: I just felt bad for Egan that they were just making a statement about how people get surprised at df's complexity and instead of empathy the point got a dry answer, that's all. So I tried pointing out it wasn't a question that needed to have a dry answer.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2019, 05:10:14 am by therahedwig »
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Egan_BW

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1713 on: March 10, 2019, 08:21:58 pm »

There's no need to make an issue of it, I was just setting a hook for discussion and speculation and people didn't bite it.

Spoiler: digression (click to show/hide)
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scourge728

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1714 on: March 11, 2019, 08:01:29 am »

There's a part of my brain that's always looking for jokes or funny things or unusual angles to insert that will draw conversation in a direction more entertaining to me.[/spoiler]
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Untrustedlife

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1715 on: March 11, 2019, 01:30:48 pm »

Quote
It might be too much work to support them, and it would be pretty simple to ensure that one of the procgen'd races ticks enough of the fort mode necessities.  Mainly the digging part, since outdoor constructions are still clunky.  If we get to a point where an outdoor race would be fun to play, and has enough of its other bells and whistles respected, I'd be fine with that.  It just doesn't feel like we are quite there.  Overall though, I think procedural fort races will build a bit of that development pressure, the way things often work, since supporting their other quirks will be something that can be done more piecemeal without it feeling utterly broken...  and then suddenly I might realize or be reminded, "oh, human castle mode is basically ready" or something like that.  (naturally, the 17x17 sites wouldn't be supported due to memory concerns** -- another road into this is the scenario-related smaller work sites that everybody will have; "human lumber camp" is another possible path to playable humans.)

** (though without digging and with the map-rewrite, loading a 17x17 human embark suddenly becomes totally feasible, as the deep elevations which would normally blow-out memory and create an underground-life pathing nightmare could simply be ignored; though citizen path-finding would probably be slightly more costly as the map would be less compact -- that doesn't mean we'd be able to have all 10000 citizens of one of those human capitals loaded, but it does mean you could play a 200 person human 'town' with a small market and have the usual FPS problems, but no more than that)
Source: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7724610;topicseen#msg7724610

:)

... Will there still be a sort of 'Wizard tower' mode for wizards(as per old dev notes), or will our interaction with wizards be primarily adventure mode shenanigans with occasionally a wizard histfig messing things up in fortmode? Or is everything just gonna melt together and we'll see prison-colony-on-a-magical-mountain-run-by-wizards-that-are-an-offshoot-of-a-dwarven-civ-and-they-are-also-a-mercenary-band-mode?


Adventure mode shenanigans CAN include managing your wizards tower if you have one. He has talked about running sites in adventure mode  in the df talks many times before, you would give orders and all that stuff, much like fort mode,  just, more directly. And your underlings will then run off and do the work while you do your wizard stuff. Just imagine running around, giving your workers orders. And them doing them. Or you giving your underlings orders, who then tell their underlings to do orders, who then do them.

Site management doesn't need to be limited to fort mode. You can run a site from your characters perspective by giving orders.

I wanted to add to this:
Right now you can tell your companions build your site for you and then you can leave and they will build it while you are away, it will work much the same for other orders presumably in site management.
"butcher this corse"
"build this"
Order driven, but from your characters perspective.
etc.
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ArtemiusTheHuman

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1716 on: March 12, 2019, 12:21:00 am »

Hi!
My english is not so good, so sorry for probable mistakes.

I have some questions/suggestions for Fortress Mode:
1) More suggestion, than question. Wild animal people and some creatures like trolls, gorlaks and troglodits [CAN_LEARN]. How about possibility to train them, when they encaged, making them a citisens of your fortress? They are almost useless now, but can be very useful for creating of multinational fortresses.
2) About religions. Will there be a possibility for dwarfs (or others) in your fortress to found a new religion? Maybe as a very rare happening? Or this only world-creational option?
3) Can religions spread with books? How about optional holy bibles for some of them?))
4) About mecenaries. Can they recruit citizens of your fortress for their band? Maybe, unhappy citisens will be willing to leave fortress and join such bands, and they will file a petition, denying which will cause even more bad thoughts?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1717 on: March 12, 2019, 12:28:04 am »

Hi!
My english is not so good, so sorry for probable mistakes.

I have some questions/suggestions for Fortress Mode:
1) More suggestion, than question. Wild animal people and some creatures like trolls, gorlaks and troglodits [CAN_LEARN]. How about possibility to train them, when they encaged, making them a citisens of your fortress? They are almost useless now, but can be very useful for creating of multinational fortresses.
2) About religions. Will there be a possibility for dwarfs (or others) in your fortress to found a new religion? Maybe as a very rare happening? Or this only world-creational option?
3) Can religions spread with books? How about optional holy bibles for some of them?))
4) About mecenaries. Can they recruit citizens of your fortress for their band? Maybe, unhappy citisens will be willing to leave fortress and join such bands, and they will file a petition, denying which will cause even more bad thoughts?

I think 4 would be tremendous.
Dorfs need ways to leave your fortress to deal with their unhappiness and stress and stuff. Having your legendary but bored axelord join a bunch of mercs who you paid to protect you before they all leave for more interesting places would be great.

To the suggestions forum with you!
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1718 on: March 12, 2019, 04:16:07 am »

As Shonai_Dweller indicated, ArtemiusTheHuman's suggestions are mainly suggestions, and belong in the suggestions forum, where Toady will have a greater chance of acting on them (questions in this thread are read, answered, and forgotten [i.e. no particular action is taken after that], while suggestions are looked at from time to time).
1. Gremlins are the only creatures that can be "recruited" from the wild, and there are quite a few bugs in that implementation. Gorlaks, Plump Helmet Men, and animal people are reasonable extensions of that "recruiting strategy", but will probably wait for a future implementation of animal people tribes and tribal interaction before anything is done with those (together with the bugs affecting the recruiting). Slow learners (trolls, ogres, troglodytes) are more problematic as it would require figuring out how to create a society where they fit in, as dwarven ethics doesn't allow for slavery, and that presumably includes veiled versions of it, such as indenture, caste stratified societies, etc.
2. Founding new religions would be quite rare, or the world would get overrun by new religions popping up, flaring, and fizzling out (and the rate of that might well become a slider control), and that, in extension, means it happening in a player fortress would be very rare. As far as I understand it new religions are intended to be possible to appear during game play, so the question of whether it will be possible in a player fortress basically comes down to how much extra work it would be required to make it possible (cool, but it has to be worth the effort required).
3. Currently not, but it certainly would be reasonable for holy scriptures to act in a way similar to value books. Note, though, that DF is a poly pantheon world generally (like the ancient times in the real world), and so doesn't mesh well with the modern worlds monopolistic monotheistic religions, which are the ones producing the most known holy scriptures (not saying polytheistic religions don't have them too). A scripture trying to gain your support for Artemis would not really do anything about your opinion about Jupiter, while one rooting for Allah would at the same time require you to distance yourself from all other gods (not that it has stopped practitioners from trying to cull favors from multiple monopolistic gods concurrently in the past and present...). However, you can't just have books pulling you towards gods, or you might end up with dorfs who don't have enough hours in the day to pray to them all (which already happens...), so there has to be some balancing mechanism.
4. Currently not, as residents and citizens currently are under player control (residents sometimes under too little control, though), with the recent option of sending them to other settlements (or banish them) being the only exit paths (apart from the old one of more or less accidental death).
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squamous

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1719 on: March 13, 2019, 04:57:25 pm »

Will the addition of a steam-supported graphics pack negatively affect future feature additions? Regarding them, an example you used was worm people living in the intestines of a world-monster for whom being dragged into lakes of bile by ghosts was a constant mortal threat. It seems unlikely that this kind of procedural possibility could be accounted for even with a whole professional team of graphics artists. I worry that features like this that don't seem to be able to reasonably be integrated into the official steam version are more likely to hit the cutting room floor than to be available in the free version only or some other compromise, but I would like to hear the official stance on it. How exactly will the graphics pack work with the level of procedural generation DF will eventually support without compromising the original vision, if it is even possible? It seems like a pretty big challenge.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 06:00:41 pm by squamous »
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Eric Blank

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1720 on: March 13, 2019, 05:01:57 pm »

So i just read the announcement, and i gotta ask;

1) Just what will enhanced graphics mean? Graphics tiles for things like items, landscape components, shrubs/grasses, and map icons?
From the patreon page thats exactly what it looks like, so theres my answer Will things, modded things, that dont have graphics support show up as normal ascii tiles?
2) Will the steam version get steam workshop support for mods?
3) Will the steam version technically be downloadable on the bay12games/dwarves page?
Steam only lets you run the newest version of a game and will immediately overwrite your current game files, which id have to backup before updating, and if i want to play older versions of the steam game it would be absolutely necessary to have access to it there.
4) How different will the "classic" version end up being?


To be fair ive been playing for 12 years now, since i was 14, and this is new and scary and im not sure if i like it, but if you think its necessary for you, you know whats best.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 05:24:48 pm by Eric Blank »
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Meph

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1721 on: March 13, 2019, 06:15:43 pm »

Obligatory "I'm not Tarn, but"

1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. No idea.
4. The only changes are sprites, audio files and Steam-related stuff like achievements.

All answers to be taken with a grain of salt, since I just push pixels and can be wrong. ;)
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1722 on: March 14, 2019, 04:05:06 am »

Are whatever enhancements that are going into the graphics system to support these new tiles going to be folded back into "classic" or are classic users to make do with DFhack/TWBT (and crashing Adventurer...)?

Meph can answer too of course if he knows (what's the Meph colour?) :)

Putting this here just in case the upcoming Q&A's end up in obscure timezones...
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Inarius

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1723 on: March 14, 2019, 04:21:26 am »

About Meph color, maybe something more...readable? Like this or this ?
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Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1724 on: March 14, 2019, 04:22:28 am »

Yes, this is been answered in basically every other thread and I thought it was answered in the previous post by meph but apparently it wasn't
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