Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Author Topic: Rebuild a Dead Dwarven Civilization?  (Read 1347 times)

Morning_Oak

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Rebuild a Dead Dwarven Civilization?
« on: February 17, 2020, 12:19:55 am »

My question involves fortress and adventure mode so I hope itís ok to ask it here. In a world I generated there is a dead dwarven civilization with an interesting history. I can select them as an adventurer but not in fortress mode. I have a somewhat straightforward goal: Spawn 2 (or more if needed) adventurers under the dead dwarven civilization, force them to marry and spawn children with dfhack and after building a sufficient population at a reclaimed site, reenable the option to select said dwarf civ in fort mode. Is this realisticly doable? It would really depend on if the children spawned would be considered citizens of said dwarf civilization to even be somewhat possible, and Iím not sure if a claimed adventure site counts towards that civilizationís or if an established site is even necessary, so long as there are living members in the world.

Logged

PatrikLundell

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Rebuild a Dead Dwarven Civilization?
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2020, 02:47:26 am »

I know very little about adventure mode, so I skip that part.

Firstly most civs that ought to be dead aren't due to bugged DF accounting, and so playing them usually results in playing a "struggling" civ with an early monarch, caravans, etc.

DF culls dead civs (and some struggling ones) from the list of civs you can play as in Fortress Mode, but it's possible to use DFHack to get them into the list: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=165084.msg7526484#msg7526484.

However, as far as I know there's no way of reviving a truly dead civ. You can embark and establish fortresses (spawning void dorfs when required, but first cannibalizing previously established fortresses of their pops), but it remains brain dead (which includes the bug of not being able to raid at all: sent parties are never moved, so the neither reach their destination nor return).
Logged

Quarque

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Rebuild a Dead Dwarven Civilization?
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2020, 03:13:35 am »

(spawning void dorfs when required, but first cannibalizing previously established fortresses of their pops)

You can prevent cannibalizing existing forts by setting the Population limit to 7 or less, disabling migrants.

I messed around a little with a dead civ in 44.12, but never managed to get a dwarf breeding program rolling. (It requires two marriages out of your starting pop, because if you only have 1 ancestor pair you are stuck with brothers and sisters that can't spawn a new generation.)

In version 47 the breeding part is going to be easier.

Patrick, how many dwarves have you gotten with dead civs? You played them a lot.
Logged

PatrikLundell

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Rebuild a Dead Dwarven Civilization?
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2020, 03:32:39 am »

I think you can actually get a pop going with a single breeding pair, because I think the incest restriction is restricted to siblings, in which case the first generation offspring would be able to marry second generation ones, and dwarves can pop out dwarflets for a very long time, leading to "uncles" and "aunts" that are actually younger than their second generation relatives.
My dead civs made use of both migrant waves, though, and thus had a base pop of 12-23.

I have mostly worked with low pop fortresses capping the pop at 50 or so, but at one time I made an experiment to see if meeting the requirements for getting the monarch would revive the civ (which it didn't, as expected). The pop requirement for that is something like 100 or 150. This was before raiding was introduced, and I don't know if the requirements for the monarch has changed (the baron etc. requirement changed to require holdings).
Logged

Quarque

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Rebuild a Dead Dwarven Civilization?
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2020, 04:04:46 am »

I think you can actually get a pop going with a single breeding pair, because I think the incest restriction is restricted to siblings, in which case the first generation offspring would be able to marry second generation ones

Well, the problem with that would be the age gaps. In version 44 and older there is a strict maximum age gap of 10 years and for this reason you really needed two pairs. In the latest version it *might* work, but I don't know the exact way it handles age gaps now. Then again, in the latest version it should be much easier to get babies from different parents in any case, now that we no longer have strict monogamy and dwarves don't even have to be married to get kids.
Logged

PatrikLundell

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Rebuild a Dead Dwarven Civilization?
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2020, 08:03:59 am »

I think you can actually get a pop going with a single breeding pair, because I think the incest restriction is restricted to siblings, in which case the first generation offspring would be able to marry second generation ones

Well, the problem with that would be the age gaps. In version 44 and older there is a strict maximum age gap of 10 years and for this reason you really needed two pairs. In the latest version it *might* work, but I don't know the exact way it handles age gaps now. Then again, in the latest version it should be much easier to get babies from different parents in any case, now that we no longer have strict monogamy and dwarves don't even have to be married to get kids.

I must be mushy in the head! You generally need two pairs to get two kids of the first generation to be able to produce second generation offspring to get the process started.
I agree that the kids produced by the first pair MIGHT eventually reach an age where they're allowed to marry one of the starting 7 (other of the parents, of course), but it will take a long time, and there's a significant risk the potential spouses would die of old age before that (and fortress building will be slow for the 60 or so years before kids produced by a first generation kid mature).

The age gap rules as described by Toady a bit over a year ago are fairly simple:
- A civilized creature may marry one who's +/- 10 years of their own age, assuming both parties are adult (i.e. 12 years in vanilla).
- The older party may be at most half again the younger party's age when that's at least 10 years. Again, they have to be adult.
Thus, a fresh adult may marry a 22 year oldtimer. At 20 the rules break even, setting the limit to 30, while at 50 it's 75, at 400 it's 600, etc.
Logged