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Author Topic: FBYOR 5 - Game Over - Learning From Disaster, As All Ends In Fire And Darkness  (Read 49102 times)

notquitethere

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Re: FBYOR 5 - Game Over - Learning From Disaster, As All Ends In Fire And Darkness
« Reply #1680 on: November 11, 2022, 10:29:40 am »

I will say, in commiseration with Fallacy, I've put things in mafia games before that have seemed like a fun idea at the time but have ended up breaking the format in some horrible way. The CYOM games were quite vulnerable to this unfortunately (though it's still an idea I'll keep coming back to).
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FallacyofUrist

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Re: FBYOR 5 - Game Over - Learning From Disaster, As All Ends In Fire And Darkness
« Reply #1681 on: November 11, 2022, 12:40:53 pm »

Roles part one:



Quote from: Maximum Spin
“A Heart Full Of Neutrality” (town):
(Auto) Steady Heartbeat: Your heartbeat is steady, unwavering, unshakeable, unchangeable. Your alignment cannot be changed, your action targets cannot be changed, and your non-Item abilities cannot be Disabled.
(Night) A Fair Arbiter [target]: You judge your target fairly. If and only if they successfully killed another player this Night, you learn their alignment. Otherwise, you do not.
(1-Shot, Night) Heartthrob - Neutral Ending [target]: You link your heartbeat to your target’s, and give them the Heartbound Status.
(1-Shot, Day) Speak From The Heart: You bear your heart, and reveal your unbiased justice. You reveal and mod-confirm your alignment publicly. At the end of the next Day after the execution, your heart gives out under the strain, and you are killed.

(Reference) (Status) Heartbound: Your heart beats in synch. If you are killed, the same kill also affects Maximum Spin. If Maximum Spin is killed, the same kill also affects you.

I think Spin's role was one of the saner and more reasonable roles around. If every role conformed to around this level of power, with a bit extra for our local SK and scum, I think everyone would be happy.

I don't have any revisions for Spin's role. A Fair Arbiter may seem weak on first glance, but being able to confirm that someone didn't kill is actually pretty useful. I think if I hadn't mistakenly killed him he would have gotten a lot of value out of his one-shots, as well.



Quote from: Knightwing64
Reality Warping Dragon of Dubious Morals (town):
(Night) Draconic Barrier [target]: You shroud your target in a resilient spatial barrier. This protects them from kill actions performed this Night and roleblocks them as well.
(2-Shot, Night) Draconic Distortion [target1][target2]: You twist space and create a wormhole. All single target actions performed on your first target this Night are redirected to instead target your second target. If your second target is successfully killed this Night, you harvest their soul and gain an additional vote permanently.
(Auto) Uncertain Morality: Your morality is… flexible. Your alignment is treated as Serial Killer for the purposes of investigative abilities. Additionally, if a Serial Killer aligned player wins the game, you are treated as if you possess the Serial Killer-Ally win condition.
(Auto) There Can Only Be One: Dragons grow stronger if they are unrivaled. If you are the only remaining living player with a Dragon role, using Draconic Barrier automatically also self-targets it on you without including its roleblock effect.

I don't think this role design conforms to the theme Knightwing intended well enough. I like some of the concepts, but in a better game I'd have revised it. Draconic Distortion is too weak for what feels like a keystone ability, and Barrier is bland.

Quote from: Revised Version
Reality Warping Dragon of Dubious Morals (town):
(Night) Transfer Consequences [target1][target2]: You warp cause and effect. All action results that would have an effect on your first target this Night instead affect your second target. If your second target dies this Night, you drain their soul and gain an additional vote for the duration of the next Day.
(1-Shot, Day) Absolute Partition: You separate the world into two demiplanes. Compose two lists of living players other than yourself, with no player existing in both lists, and the number of players in each list being as close to equal as is possible. The next Night, no player in your first list may voluntarily or involuntarily target any player in your second list, and vice versa. (This fact is publicly announced.)
(Auto) Uncertain Morality: Your morality is flexible and pragmatic. Your alignment is treated as Serial Killer for the purposes of investigative abilities. Additionally, if a Serial Killer aligned player wins the game, you are treated as if you possess the Serial Killer-Ally win condition.
(Auto) There Can Only Be One: Dragons grow stronger if they are unrivaled. If you are the only remaining living player with a Dragon role, this ability transforms into the ability Mirror Warp.

Quote
(2-Shot, Night) Mirror Warp: You reflect reality across an ethereal axis. All effects you would experience this Night are transferred to their sources. If this directly causes another player's death, you consume their soul and gain a permanent additional vote.



Quote from: Jim Groovester
DRAGON DEEZ NUTS (town):
(Night) DRAGON NUTS SACK [target]: You reach into your bountiful hoard, and grant your target a DRAGON ALMONDS, a DRAGON WALNUTS, a DRAGON CASHEWS, or a DRAGON PECANS. You cannot choose the same Item two Nights in a row - variety is an important part of any nut enthusiast’s diet!
-(Reference) (Item, 1-Shot, Night) DRAGON ALMONDS [target]: You poison your target with deadly, cyanide-ridden DRAGON ALMONDS. A random Auto ability they possess is Disabled.
-(Reference) (Item, 1-Shot, Night) DRAGON WALNUTS [self]: You eat resilient DRAGON WALNUTS and protect yourself from up to one kill this Night.
-(Reference) (Item, Free, 1-Shot, Night) DRAGON CASHEWS [self]: You eat healthy DRAGON CASHEWS. Un-Disable one ability you possess or remove one Status effect you possess. You choose what to affect with this ability.
-(Reference) (Item, 1-Shot, Add-On) DRAGON PECANS: Not the best on their own, but DRAGON PECANS are useful as an ingredient in all sorts of other abilities. Use this with an action, and that action cannot be roleblocked or have its target changed this Night.
(1-Shot, Night) ACORN BREATH - GOTTEM! [target]: You breathe acorns on your target. Hard, sharp acorns. The overwhelming acorns kill them, and roleblock them for good measure.
(Auto) THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE: Dragons grow stronger if they are unrivaled. If you are the only remaining living player with a Dragon role, whenever you use DRAGON NUTS SACK you may also choose any DRAGON NUTS Item ability to grant yourself.

As much as Jim's role was really funny, it's become clear that roles that give gifts or grant abilities can be too confirmable, and despite getting two uses of his kill, Jim never managed to kill EuchreJack anyone.

A less drastic revision would be nice here.

Quote from: Revised
DRAGON DEEZ NUTS (town):
(Night) DRAGON NUTS SACK [target]: You reach into your bountiful hoard, and grant your target the boon of DRAGON ALMONDS, DRAGON WALNUTS, DRAGON CASHEWS, or DRAGON PECANS. You cannot choose the same nut two Nights in a row - variety is an important part of any nut enthusiast’s diet!
-DRAGON ALMONDS: You poison your target with deadly, cyanide-ridden DRAGON ALMONDS. A random Auto ability they possess is Disabled.
-DRAGON WALNUTS: You feed your target resilient DRAGON WALNUTS and protect them from kills this Night.
-DRAGON CASHEWS: You feed your target healthy DRAGON CASHEWS. Remove all their Status effects and un-Disable all their abilities.
-DRAGON PECANS: Not the best on their own, but DRAGON PECANS are useful as an ingredient in all sorts of other abilities. Your target's action or actions cannot be roleblocked or have their target changed this Night.
(1-Shot, Night) ACORN BREATH - GOTTEM! [target]: You breathe acorns on your target. Hard, sharp acorns. The overwhelming acorns kill them, and roleblock them for good measure.
(Auto) THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE: Dragons grow stronger if they are unrivaled. If you are the only remaining living player with a Dragon role, this ability becomes the ability DRAGON GIVING TREE.

Quote
(Auto) DRAGON GIVING TREE: You share your wonderful DRAGON NUTS freely. Each Night you may choose one of your DRAGON NUTS types, and all players who visit you are affected by that effect this Night (for ALMONDS, WALNUTS, and CASHEWS) or the next Night (PECANS). You may not choose the same type two Nights in a row, however - variety is important even to an evolved dragon.



Quote from: notquitethere
Role With Increasingly Bizarre Post Restrictions (town):
(Auto) Increasingly Bizarre Behavior: You may only use Plunder, Machine Learning, or Catspaw Snooping during the Night if you made a good-faith effort to adhere to the associated character-based post restriction during the Day before, and did not attempt to adhere to any other post restrictions during that time.
(2-Shot, Night) Plunder [target]: Associated with ‘Pirate’. You plunder from your target, stealing a random Item ability from their role and adding it to yours!
(2-Shot, Night) Machine Learning [target]: Associated with ‘Robot’. You compute your target’s behavior into a coherent model, and learn if they are Alpha, Beta, or Omega classed. Town players without lethal abilities and Mafia-Allies are Alpha classed, Town players with lethal abilities and Mafia players are Beta classed, all third party aligned players not otherwise covered are Omega classed.
(Night) Catspaw Snooping [target]: Associated with ‘Catgirl’. You’re too sneaky, so when you use this ability, you can’t be seen visiting your target. You still learn who they visited this Night, if anyone, though!
(1-Shot, Day) The Most Bizarre Post Restriction [target]: Is the silence of death. You publicly cut your target’s throat. If you then successfully follow the following post restriction exactly, you kill your target at the end of the Day, before the execution resolves. “Do not double post. Start each of your posts with a number. The first number is 20, then each subsequent number is 1 less than the number before it. Do not continue counting below 0.” You only kill your target if you reach 0.

I actually really like this role. Categorization is a good way to limit alignment inspection, and The Most Bizarre Post Restriction is hilarious. I think Plunder was a little too weak, though.

Quote from: Revised Plunder
(2-Shot, Night) Plunder [target]: Associated with ‘Pirate’. You plunder from your target, stealing all Item abilities from their role and adding them to yours!
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Generic Arms Race.

Would you like to play a game of Mafia? The subforum is always open to new players.

EuchreJack

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Re: FBYOR 5 - Game Over - Learning From Disaster, As All Ends In Fire And Darkness
« Reply #1682 on: November 11, 2022, 02:48:49 pm »

I do hope we see Robot!NQT again. It was a high point of the game.

notquitethere

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Re: FBYOR 5 - Game Over - Learning From Disaster, As All Ends In Fire And Darkness
« Reply #1683 on: November 11, 2022, 02:50:31 pm »

It was so hard to actually play well and be in character at the same time, putting on a voice and embodying a different identity acted counter to be clear and straightforward in my meaning and expression... but it was often quite fun!
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Knightwing64

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Re: FBYOR 5 - Game Over - Learning From Disaster, As All Ends In Fire And Darkness
« Reply #1684 on: November 11, 2022, 02:50:50 pm »

It also almost got you voted out lol
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Maximum Spin

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Re: FBYOR 5 - Game Over - Learning From Disaster, As All Ends In Fire And Darkness
« Reply #1685 on: November 11, 2022, 02:54:24 pm »

I think if I hadn't mistakenly killed him he would have gotten a lot of value out of his one-shots, as well.
I probably wouldn't have used them UNLESS I could secure juicebox's cooperation to refill the heartbeat. Getting myself conftown in exchange for dying just doesn't seem that valuable to me since I don't think anyone was likely to scumread me in the first place. Meanwhile, I wouldn't risk becoming lovers unless I could take a decent chunk of people down with me. Otherwise the risk of killing two town is too high.
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webadict

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Re: FBYOR 5 - Game Over - Learning From Disaster, As All Ends In Fire And Darkness
« Reply #1686 on: November 11, 2022, 04:20:26 pm »

I think if I hadn't mistakenly killed him he would have gotten a lot of value out of his one-shots, as well.
I probably wouldn't have used them UNLESS I could secure juicebox's cooperation to refill the heartbeat. Getting myself conftown in exchange for dying just doesn't seem that valuable to me since I don't think anyone was likely to scumread me in the first place. Meanwhile, I wouldn't risk becoming lovers unless I could take a decent chunk of people down with me. Otherwise the risk of killing two town is too high.
It still feels too risky to use.  I think Max's role is surprisingly weak, given what it is.  Being unable to be redirected was good, but the rest could be improved.

Quote from: Maximum Spin
“A Heart Full Of Neutrality” (town):
(Auto) Steady Heartbeat: Your heartbeat is steady, unwavering, unshakeable, unchangeable. Your alignment cannot be changed, your action targets cannot be changed, and your non-Item abilities cannot be Disabled.
(Night) A Fair Arbiter [target]: You judge your target fairly. If and only if they successfully killed another player this Night, you learn their alignment. Otherwise, you do not.
(1-Shot, Night) Heartthrob - Neutral Ending [target]: You link your heartbeat to your target’s, and give them the Heartbound Status.
(1-Shot, Day) Speak From The Heart: You bear your heart, and reveal your unbiased justice. You reveal and mod-confirm your alignment publicly. At the end of the next Day after the execution, your heart gives out under the strain, and you are killed.

(Reference) (Status) Heartbound: Your heart beats in synch. If you are killed, the same kill also affects Maximum Spin. If Maximum Spin is killed, the same kill also affects you.
An Inspection Ability without confirmation attached isn't a strong Action, but this is tied to the number of Abilities that cause Inspections to be incorrect.  This one's... fine, since he can't be redirected or bussed?  Getting an alignment or a kill check isn't terrible.  I'd probably make his Actions confirm its target after redirection instead, though (Because he's not going to stop the Actions or anything, but he's following that neutral heart of his.)  This is beneficial for the scum, who had randomization Abilities, since they can have a bit of control over how powerful Max could be, but it also gives Max some ways to see redirection and bussing Actions himself.  The only downside is that Max probably needs a second Action here instead of his Heartbound, which should be changed with Knightwing's weird Auto Ability.  Let Max Heartbound himself to someone and shift to their Alignment (consuming it) or rebind it if he wants.  Max is a heart full of neutrality, so shifting sides at a whim feels much more in line with that.  I think Heartbound acting as a suicide bomber isn't the right feeling for this role, nor is confirming your alignment.  You want a Neutral Action, you go with Removal.  It's a very upsetting type of action, but if you let Maximum Spin remove a target's role, (extra) votes, or Abilities, that's pretty neutrally-inclined, AND it's a great way to fight.  Power removal is the great neutralizer, bringing people to a level playing field.

Max's role not being affected by target manipulation makes it what it is, but his other Abilities are... pretty futile feeling.  I have a feeling that he only inspects using that Role, and that there's zero instances where not inspecting is actually better (except in the case he described by working with juicebox, but that's not a combo I'd bank on being able to use.)

Surprisingly, Knightwing's role was what I found to be overpowered, given that he can gain permanent votes by redirecting and has a backup wincon and can gain more power in certain circumstances.  The rewrite fixes the permanent votes, but still gives Knightwing a lot of power.

Knightwing has a jailkeep and a redirection.  Those are strong Abilities on their own, as the Redirection can be used to find people whose Actions don't line up and as a pseudo-Protect (against all Actions, as well), and the Jailkeep is semi-confirmable by the target, as they'll be Roleblocked and Protected, ensuring that they don't die.  He can pick and choose what the greatest threats are and pick the right Action for the job.  Knightwing was given good options on Actions to use.

Knightwing being a Reality Warping Dragon with Dubious Morals having the jailkeep doesn't sound fully right.  Protection doesn't feel like it'd be in his repertoire (though, I'd feel like a role like this could have a protection if you make the Action Morally Dubious, like having the protection work by delaying the Kills effects by a Cycle.)  The redirection feels fine, but I feel like that's possibly a role that could actually deserve some random factors here (How much control could a reality warping dragon have, anyway?)  Change it to 3 targets, and split the Actions randomly between the two.  Reality warps should be things that are weird.  I think the "With Dubious Morals" part here should be wanton carelessness in regards to their reality warping.  If someone dies from his Abilities, that not Knightwing's problem.  That's their problem for being targeted by Knightwing!  Like copying a Player's Action(s) from a previous Phase and using it on someone.  Potentially dangerous, but oh well!  Or stealing Actions from other people and using them on yourself!  Knightwing doesn't feel like he should be an SK-Ally here.  The role name feels more like a dangerously powerful psychopathic dragon that an SK would try to manipulate to bring about their goals.  He'd do things like not care about rules to win, not kill everyone gleefully.  (Assuming, of course, Knightwing is rolled Town here.)
« Last Edit: November 11, 2022, 04:24:14 pm by webadict »
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Maximum Spin

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Re: FBYOR 5 - Game Over - Learning From Disaster, As All Ends In Fire And Darkness
« Reply #1687 on: November 11, 2022, 04:45:32 pm »

Max's role not being affected by target manipulation makes it what it is, but his other Abilities are... pretty futile feeling.  I have a feeling that he only inspects using that Role, and that there's zero instances where not inspecting is actually better (except in the case he described by working with juicebox, but that's not a combo I'd bank on being able to use.)
This is exactly how I thought when I got it. There was basically no chance of me ever using anything else. And the inspection itself is pretty weak, especially in a game where the only person to ever get killed was me.
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Nakéen

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Re: FBYOR 5 - Game Over - Learning From Disaster, As All Ends In Fire And Darkness
« Reply #1688 on: November 11, 2022, 05:11:07 pm »

Max's role not being affected by target manipulation makes it what it is, but his other Abilities are... pretty futile feeling.  I have a feeling that he only inspects using that Role, and that there's zero instances where not inspecting is actually better (except in the case he described by working with juicebox, but that's not a combo I'd bank on being able to use.)
This is exactly how I thought when I got it. There was basically no chance of me ever using anything else. And the inspection itself is pretty weak, especially in a game where the only person to ever get killed was me.
To ever get accidentally killed!
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Maximum Spin

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Re: FBYOR 5 - Game Over - Learning From Disaster, As All Ends In Fire And Darkness
« Reply #1689 on: November 11, 2022, 05:29:49 pm »

Max's role not being affected by target manipulation makes it what it is, but his other Abilities are... pretty futile feeling.  I have a feeling that he only inspects using that Role, and that there's zero instances where not inspecting is actually better (except in the case he described by working with juicebox, but that's not a combo I'd bank on being able to use.)
This is exactly how I thought when I got it. There was basically no chance of me ever using anything else. And the inspection itself is pretty weak, especially in a game where the only person to ever get killed was me.
To ever get accidentally killed!
I mean by an action, as needed to make my inspect work, rather than a lynch, of course.
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Knightwing64

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Re: FBYOR 5 - Game Over - Learning From Disaster, As All Ends In Fire And Darkness
« Reply #1690 on: November 11, 2022, 05:44:21 pm »

I, personally don’t know if I deserved that win, but I’ll take it.
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Egan_BW

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Re: FBYOR 5 - Game Over - Learning From Disaster, As All Ends In Fire And Darkness
« Reply #1691 on: November 11, 2022, 06:10:51 pm »

play lame win games
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It is good to choose your battles. It is better to choose your wars.

hector13

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Re: FBYOR 5 - Game Over - Learning From Disaster, As All Ends In Fire And Darkness
« Reply #1692 on: November 11, 2022, 06:44:23 pm »

Tric I think deserved it because nobody suspected them, and you might have just got lucky but that’s the way things go sometimes.
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.

Egan_BW

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Re: FBYOR 5 - Game Over - Learning From Disaster, As All Ends In Fire And Darkness
« Reply #1693 on: November 11, 2022, 06:49:41 pm »

I guess you deserve it if you correctly guessed who SK was and you don't if you didn't?
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It is good to choose your battles. It is better to choose your wars.

hector13

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Re: FBYOR 5 - Game Over - Learning From Disaster, As All Ends In Fire And Darkness
« Reply #1694 on: November 11, 2022, 06:57:55 pm »

You deserve it if you play well. That’s only really an issue with town, because even if you play well, if the rest of your team suck ass you can still lose.
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.
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