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Author Topic: Winning is chilled out  (Read 13711 times)

Rawl

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Re: Winning is chilled out
« Reply #90 on: July 31, 2008, 07:55:19 pm »


[2] "Noob" is not a term of abuse. Noobhood is the first step on the road to mastery. However, when people ask for the level of challenge to flex infinitely according to the player's whims, they are trying to abolish the entire concept of mastery so that they can remain noobs forever. We need a label for these people so we can avoid getting their weaksauce on us. Hence "perpetual noob".


I don't entirely agree with that, I mean if I were to flex it infinitely to be under constant siege, with floods, chasm creatures, and having to irrigate I thing that would be quite the opposite of "weaksauce" and would make one of your "perpetual noobs" cry tears of crimson blood at the sheer thought of attempting something so horrific.

I think a rewards/risk idea with starting areas would be great, but I also agree with the idea that as a fort progress their should also be an increase of difficulty. Playing the world is fantastic, but I also want to play a single fort to its fullest and see how far I can push it and how well it can adapt to both pleasant and unpleasant conditions.
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Sapidus3

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Re: Winning is chilled out
« Reply #91 on: July 31, 2008, 08:25:31 pm »

I think a rewards/risk idea with starting areas would be great, but I also agree with the idea that as a fort progress their should also be an increase of difficulty. Playing the world is fantastic, but I also want to play a single fort to its fullest and see how far I can push it and how well it can adapt to both pleasant and unpleasant conditions.

I completely agree with all statements included in that quote. Playing the world should not come at the cost of actually playing the fort, because playing the fort is the gameplay mechanic that you actually do.

On the concept of playing the world, there could be a certain level of advancement in the world based on world gen ended. Perhaps a world in the early years would not have discovered the secret of making steel, or adamantium, or magma forges, or pumps, or ect. These technologies could develop as the years go on. If you have a fort in early world years, maybe one year a caravan would bring the secrets of the knowledge. Perhaps a metalcrafting dwarf taken by a mood could discover the secret of steel. Maybe the philosopher noble could actively work towards discovering some of these secrets. Discoveries would of course be available to later forts. If feel like this could give the game some continuity. As you start a new fortress, it could be with the knowledge, that while your last fort exploded in gore and death, it at the very least gave all of dwarven kind the ability to pump water. I'm not sure how feel myself about this idea.  Comments?

Ultimately the game should probably be such that you fully play the fortress and by doing so play the world.

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Re: Winning is chilled out
« Reply #92 on: July 31, 2008, 09:09:22 pm »

On the subject of init options: they're a band-aid. We started with temperature and weather init options for performance reasons, and then population cap for sort-of performance reasons, and now we're talking about adding options to disable challenges for the perpetual noobs.[2] I'm fine with that, as long as it doesn't become an excuse for the basic unmodified game to remain unbalanced.

Init options may have started off as a band-aid, but how would you explain turning migrants off a way to "disable challenges"? If anything, that would make it more challenging as you have to work with what you have and not say, "Oh well. I'll get fifteen more migrants next season!" If you turn caravans off you have to make everything by yourself and carefully manage your resources.

Don't try to sell your narrow mindedness off as some sort of "mastery" of the game. All it serves to do is hurt any arguments or points you may make that have validity. Such as the fact that init options should NOT become an excuse for the unmodded game to remain unbalanced. I think that would be, as you say, a whole truckload of "weaksauce"...

I fully support farming, economy, and culture making life in just running a fortress somewhat difficult. Personally I have sieges off because I really don't want to deal with military right now. Of course, not messing around with sieges lets me observe the balance of pure fortress life. Nobles are crazed, about three dwarves can feed eighty, and traders seem to have some aversion to bringing me half of the goods I request. Those damn elves never bring anything good anyway.

I don't think we should NEED sieges in order to have difficulty. Don't take this wrong, though, I do love the idea that I can get used to military (I'm tinkering around with what I like best right now) and how it can work for me... and then just turn sieges on and see how I fare. I just think that normal fortress life is far too unbalanced and easy right now. I can just lock a dwarf in his workshop with a stockpile of prepared meals and brew and voila. He grinds his little fingers to legendary stoneworker status with nary a bad thought because the walls are engraved with pretty pictures.

That's unbalanced. You don't have to call people "noobs" or blather on about "weaksauce" for that. You can phrase your arguments in a fully cohesive manner like a full-fledged human being.


[2] "Noob" is not a term of abuse. Noobhood is the first step on the road to mastery. However, when people ask for the level of challenge to flex infinitely according to the player's whims, they are trying to abolish the entire concept of mastery so that they can remain noobs forever. We need a label for these people so we can avoid getting their weaksauce on us. Hence "perpetual noob".

"Noob" is not a term of abuse, no. But I recognize you as an individual of moderate intelligence. Terms like "weaksauce", "noobhood", and "noob" do nothing for you but serve to harm your arguments. Yes, some people don't want difficulty. Some want a 5x5 unirrigated plot with one dwarf working it to feed 200 dwarves. Some want no sieges and no economy. Some are perfectly happy with DF like it is now. Fortunately, we can easily compromise with RAW access and init options. A flexible game allows it to reach more audiences.

The purpose of making it flexible isn't just so you can make it easier... It is also so you can make it HARDER. Imagine 200% sieges! Super-stringent economy! Nobles that make mandates every two damn seconds that ALWAYS pick materials you don't effing have!

Well, we have one of those... :P But the point isn't to constrain ANYONE. It's to make DF as easy or hard as ANYONE wants it... But in order to do that we should approach ideas in a careful manner. You shouldn't just ask, "Oh... How can we fix this...?" You should also be asking how it can be modified to be more or less difficult.

The unmodded game should be balanced, yes. Vanilla DF should have a "moderate" level of difficulty and have fairly decent (at the very least) balancing to make sure that as your fortress grows, so do its needs. However, you should be able to modify it (through the RAWs or the init configs) to be easy (for beginners and casuals) or a demon-spawned game straight from the mouth of Hades... Urist McSissypants need not apply. Unless the Nobles need another Dwarf Bone Throne.
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Langdon

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Re: Winning is chilled out
« Reply #93 on: July 31, 2008, 09:29:22 pm »

On the concept of playing the world, there could be a certain level of advancement in the world based on world gen ended. Perhaps a world in the early years would not have discovered the secret of making steel, or adamantium, or magma forges, or pumps, or ect. These technologies could develop as the years go on. If you have a fort in early world years, maybe one year a caravan would bring the secrets of the knowledge. Perhaps a metalcrafting dwarf taken by a mood could discover the secret of steel. Maybe the philosopher noble could actively work towards discovering some of these secrets. Discoveries would of course be available to later forts. If feel like this could give the game some continuity. As you start a new fortress, it could be with the knowledge, that while your last fort exploded in gore and death, it at the very least gave all of dwarven kind the ability to pump water. I'm not sure how feel myself about this idea.  Comments?

Ultimately the game should probably be such that you fully play the fortress and by doing so play the world.

I'm a little leery about limiting "technologies" - imagine the disappointment of a new player hitting the HFS for the very first time, and then failing to find any use for the blue shiny stuff (because he hasn't researched Strand Extraction). There would not be any incentive for him to dig deeper, and would only be able to craft Raw Adamantine statues and such. Valuable, true, but useless for what many players really want - i.e. crafting masterwork armor and weapons for their adventurers to retrieve later.

Also I think the difference in current world-wide technologies (humans have iron, dwarves have always had steel) will come into play in the Army Arc, where you get to face off against enemy civs. If everybody's limited to bronze (and I'm guessing in your implementation only the player can advance research) then it would take away some variation in the civ-vs-civ battles, and make all attacking civs seem the same to the player fort (instead of the terror of facing elite steel-clad hammerdwarves when all your military has is copper or bronze).
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Sapidus3

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Re: Winning is chilled out
« Reply #94 on: July 31, 2008, 10:04:32 pm »

Those are definitely good points about limiting "technology." I think it would be especially bad to new players. It could mean that someone new to the game would miss out on some of the most fun things (water pumping for example). If there was a limit to technologies it would have to be very rewarding getting them, and there would have to be enough there that the game did not feel like things were missing if you didn't have them. What I mean by that is, if you have played the game Civilization, it doesn't really feel like the game is incomplete if you dont have some tech. But if there was a tech required for you to build ANYTHING, well the game would probably feel like it was missing something if you didn't have that tech. Or if you ever played the old Warzone RTS you could be anywhere in the tech tree, and there is so much tech around that you don't feel for the lack of anything.

The tech advancement would have to be more than just, steel, pumps, adamantium. If it was just a handful of things it would feel really awkward not having any of them, and the jumps from each one would be two large.

In regards to different, civs, they could probably have different techs, and inter civ could cause techs to spread naturally.

However, all in all, tech advancement probably doesn't have a place in DF at this time. Once the game has more "stuff" in it, maybe it could be worked in. But I would love for someone to prove me wrong about with any ideas regarding that.
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Langdon

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Re: Winning is chilled out
« Reply #95 on: July 31, 2008, 10:07:10 pm »

I don't entirely agree with that, I mean if I were to flex it infinitely to be under constant siege, with floods, chasm creatures, and having to irrigate I thing that would be quite the opposite of "weaksauce" and would make one of your "perpetual noobs" cry tears of crimson blood at the sheer thought of attempting something so horrific.

I think a rewards/risk idea with starting areas would be great, but I also agree with the idea that as a fort progress their should also be an increase of difficulty. Playing the world is fantastic, but I also want to play a single fort to its fullest and see how far I can push it and how well it can adapt to both pleasant and unpleasant conditions.

Yes, one of the things I mentioned (although did not elaborate on) is that I think the risks of particular terrain features should increase as the fort grows more powerful.
For example:
- If you dig deeper, the magma pipe becomes more unstable and increases risk of eruption. Maybe "wake up" more and more powerful magma creatures (ultimately spirits of fire?)
- Utilize more water/build more wells/build waterwheels, and more river creatures appear to contest your disruption of their home (The 2D version had this feature, and thus I am confident it will be re-implemented)
- throw trash/corpses/live goblins into the chasm, and chasm denizens will take issue, and send organized sorties against your fortress (again, also in the 2D version, thus Toady already has code that does this). Organized, as in armed, mixed squads (I miss batman blowgunners).

Chasm civs might also look for allies in the underworld, and send let's say a ratman assault, spearheaded by a few powerful creatures (or a megabeast even). Or gremlins with the ability to pick locks, avoid traps, and pull levers.

I like the idea of the risk being linked to how much you use the resource somehow... if you build away from the magma and you don't use it, then you won't increase your risk, but also lower its utility.

Also, as you and several other people have suggested, there should be increasing risk over the lifetime of the fort. I do want different types of challenges - i.e. at some point a different chasm civ starts attacking, attracted by the wealth of your fort (possibly using the older, weaker chasm civ as expendable footsoldiers).

Another line of thought - I'd like weather to factor into the savagery of the biome ... higher rainfall should mean frequent flooding (even stagnant pools should overflow and muddy the surroundings) of rivers and brooks... savage mountains should mean high winds/thunderstorms destroying weaker structures (your windmills ripped away regularly every few months, lightning strikes zapping unlucky dwarves)... deserts should have sandstorms  dealing damage to dwarves caught outside (another reason to button down underground and take the military off the fortifications).

This would actually link "savage" and "peaceful" biomes with weather patterns and temperature - the reason an area has only highly dangerous creatures in it, is because only highly dangerous creatures can survive there. Of course, the pregenerated civs tend to fill up the "peaceful" areas early, and as Granite26 mentioned, such sites have all the "good" mineral veins already mined out, and new fortresses will have to venture into the untamed lands to find new resources.

Haunted/terrifying biomes, according to the dev notes, will be eventually be linked to various powers and spheres - so there will be reasons why a particular area is tainted. Again, the particular power/spirit ruling that area can affect weather... perpetual cloud cover can mean crop failure in aboveground crops, rain and thunderstorms can increase the savagery of the biome... and of course, as the fort grows more powerful, the evil entity can become irritated with these foreigners encroaching on its land, and send minions (growing more and more powerful over time) to take care of the invaders.

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Langdon

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Re: Winning is chilled out
« Reply #96 on: July 31, 2008, 10:20:54 pm »

In regards to different, civs, they could probably have different techs, and inter civ could cause techs to spread naturally.

However, all in all, tech advancement probably doesn't have a place in DF at this time. Once the game has more "stuff" in it, maybe it could be worked in. But I would love for someone to prove me wrong about with any ideas regarding that.

This could be good for "flavor" techs - i.e. techs that are not really important or only give a small advantage over other techs. Or are purely decorative. I can't think of any historical examples though.

In Civ-like games, tech advancement is one more challenge added to keep player's interest in the game, but the tech race can make or break the game (i.e. fall too far behind and you've lost). I don't want something like that for DF (i.e. I don't want humans researching iron and steel while you're stuck on copper because your metalsmiths keep getting eaten by alligators) as it feels too much like something out of the player's control. I want the fort lost due to player actions (or inaction) not due to dice rolls by some other entities in the game world.

What might add "flavor" though, is civ-specific techs, that are balanced by the techs used by other civs. I.e. only elves can weave mithril, only dwarves can work adamantine. These things should be extremely rare, though (only the civ leader gets to wield mithril weapons, and only one or two pieces at a time, and only if the elven civ has built a forest retreat in a place with mithril). Maybe dwarves mine raw mithril, but it is useless to them unless traded to the elves.

I'm trying to think of something for the humans, maybe something historically accurate but I'm coming up blank. :-P
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Rawl

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Re: Winning is chilled out
« Reply #97 on: July 31, 2008, 10:33:33 pm »

I think some more diversification of the races would be nice, I read that Toady has it planned that the elves would start bringing in animals to fight with them, the Goblins already kidnap children from the other races, kobolds have the chance of stealing some really nice weapons and such, but in all honesty what do the humans have? Perhaps expanding the differences between the civs could at some interesting flare.
Taking a look at the chasm civ, who says they should always be hostile? They go deeper in the earth then the dwarves do, who knows what kinds of jems, stones, and critters they could bring you for trade? Maybe unlike the elves who hate the use of wood and love the works of stone maybe the Chasm civ would be the opposite?

Langdon's comments about weather would defenintly be a nice addition, heck, Strong winds and floods tearing up trees; Massive floods collapsing the softer layers of the earth (sand, loam, and such). Fierce Blizzards that might disrupt trade/lumbering/surface activities would be a nice touch. How about an odd drought? Freak and unexpected weather could be a feasible idea to. Living in the savana? How about a freak snow storm that lasted a year. These events don't have to happen very often, depending on where you live however odd events like this could be commonplace.
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Rawl

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Re: Winning is chilled out
« Reply #98 on: July 31, 2008, 10:58:00 pm »

Yes new post following an old post, bad form and all that. I had a light bulb just explode in my brain. This idea is for after V1 is out and fits along the lines of Toady's idea of building and ruling a mage tower.
People have always asked if we could leave the fortress without abandoning it so we can visit it as an adventurer and interact with the locals... Inversion Time!
In the Future of the Fortress Toady mentions that he is going to make it so that players can build their own homes and save them in the world, lets expand that: What if we could as an adventurer grab a posy and build our own outpost, with the adventurer playing manager, directing but not entirely in control (to prevent the player from being TO abusive). Once you say get some tanner shops going they might need more pelts, and its up to Mayor Adventurer and his team to go hunt down some animals, and as your outpost gets bigger you could be asked to join other kingdoms or stand on your own. Then once you've retired your adventure as king (assuming your "beloved" towns folk haven't linched you for chucking kittens off the tavern and selling their children to a group of goblins passing through, You could make a fort in fort mode and try to subjugate your adventures city. Now to make sure something like this wouldn't replace Dwarf mode make it more limited in how far you can take it, or the difficulty to maintain this outpost. Perhaps it would take actual GENERATIONS of adventures to get it to the level that a Fort mode fort could reach in half the time.

Pipe-dreams I know, but MAN it would be neat!
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Langdon

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Re: Winning is chilled out
« Reply #99 on: July 31, 2008, 11:11:12 pm »

People have always asked if we could leave the fortress without abandoning it so we can visit it as an adventurer and interact with the locals... Inversion Time!

In the Future of the Fortress Toady mentions that he is going to make it so that players can build their own homes and save them in the world, lets expand that: What if we could as an adventurer grab a posy and build our own outpost, with the adventurer playing manager, directing but not entirely in control (to prevent the player from being TO abusive). Once you say get some tanner shops going they might need more pelts, and its up to Mayor Adventurer and his team to go hunt down some animals, and as your outpost gets bigger you could be asked to join other kingdoms or stand on your own. Then once you've retired your adventure as king (assuming your "beloved" towns folk haven't linched you for chucking kittens off the tavern and selling their children to a group of goblins passing through, You could make a fort in fort mode and try to subjugate your adventures city. Now to make sure something like this wouldn't replace Dwarf mode make it more limited in how far you can take it, or the difficulty to maintain this outpost. Perhaps it would take actual GENERATIONS of adventures to get it to the level that a Fort mode fort could reach in half the time.

Pipe-dreams I know, but MAN it would be neat!

I'm not entirely sure that just duplicating fortress mode with your adventurer is a good thing - i.e. if you wanted to play fortress mode, why not just play fortress mode?

But still, a few ideas along those lines:
- maybe there could be a way to get your retired adventurer as part of an embarking seven dwarves in fortress mode. Maybe his cohorts can be the other six. An option to (L)oad retired adventurer on the embark screen? This would of course fix your starting civ to the one that owns the town you retired to.

- some other thread suggested (didn't read it all the way through though) that there might be a way to continue world-gen history after a fort has ended. Maybe there is a way to have your adventurer retire in a town, and then run world-gen history say, 5 years at a time, to see if your adventurer becomes Mayor or something. Of course, your adventurer should have built up his/her social skills beforehand, to have a shot at winning the elections, and there should be some way of developing friendships in adventure mode (i.e. do quests for a town, and you grow wildly popular, to the point that after you retire and you let world-history mode run you get instantly elected as Mayor).

Then you get to play fortress mode and send armies against your old adventurer (and his ex-drunk, now elite buddies).
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mossomo

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Re: Winning is chilled out
« Reply #100 on: August 01, 2008, 01:50:20 am »

Sieges are dealt with by 3 wrestlers. And a novice stonecrafter can produce enough to buy everything the caravans have to offer.

Sieges are dealt with by 3 wrestlers.... bull.  Record it and show me.  I so do not believe you.  Sorry.  Give me a recorded video, start to finish...  And if its a video of a siege going through two hundred tiles of stone fall traps, I will only laugh...

If you have a novice stonecrafter...  Again bull.  You're not going after high valua items.  A novice stonecrafter is not going to produce enough crafts to buy wagons full of steal items, mog juice, dwarvern cheese, dwarver milk, silk cloth and etc.  I get mssgs all the time, "with the state that your goods are, I cannot possibly accept.."  Thats when i had a novice stonecrafter.  Now I start the game with one crafter with "1o" in stonecrafting. 

And wagons are obviously not able to reach your site.

 

       
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DarkerDark

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Re: Winning is chilled out
« Reply #101 on: August 01, 2008, 03:05:00 am »

Sieges are dealt with by 3 wrestlers.... bull.  Record it and show me.  I so do not believe you.  Sorry.  Give me a recorded video, start to finish...  And if its a video of a siege going through two hundred tiles of stone fall traps, I will only laugh...

If you have a novice stonecrafter...  Again bull.  You're not going after high valua items.  A novice stonecrafter is not going to produce enough crafts to buy wagons full of steal items, mog juice, dwarvern cheese, dwarver milk, silk cloth and etc.  I get mssgs all the time, "with the state that your goods are, I cannot possibly accept.."  Thats when i had a novice stonecrafter.  Now I start the game with one crafter with "1o" in stonecrafting. 

And wagons are obviously not able to reach your site.       

If you have access to large swaths of magnetite (which is plentiful over much of most generated worlds), your novice stonecrafter can indeed buy out entire caravans. Maybe not in the first year, but certainly by the second. Just access your 'Stone' screen and let him turn all that magnetite into high value crafts.

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Langdon

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Re: Winning is chilled out
« Reply #102 on: August 01, 2008, 04:05:15 am »

Sieges are dealt with by 3 wrestlers. And a novice stonecrafter can produce enough to buy everything the caravans have to offer.

Sieges are dealt with by 3 wrestlers.... bull.  Record it and show me.  I so do not believe you.  Sorry.  Give me a recorded video, start to finish...  And if its a video of a siege going through two hundred tiles of stone fall traps, I will only laugh...

I wish we could somehow cut off the first page and a half of flamage on this thread and transplant it under a different topic header. :D
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Sapidus3

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Re: Winning is chilled out
« Reply #103 on: August 01, 2008, 07:15:28 am »

I wish we could somehow cut off the first page and a half of flamage on this thread and transplant it under a different topic header. :D

Alas such things are not possible, all we can hope to do is too endeavor to soldier on with what has become a great brainstorming session.

However, since the crafting/trading topic has come up again, perhaps we should take the opportunity to address it with some depth; its obviously something people care very much for.

I suppose the first thing we have to think about is what sort of behavior from this section of game we should be seeing (ignoring difficulty for the time being).

The ideal behavior will require caravans to be generated on the world screen and travel along it. Part of it depends on how the fortress falls along the caravans route. If Caravans are traveling between location A, and our fortress, and those are the only routes, we should see the following behavior:

A-Fort Caravan:
Such a caravan will likely almost always be bought out by the player. It should only bring what it knows or suspect the player will buy. After some time is should have a good idea of what the players purchasing capacity is. Furthermore, it should only buy goods that it could then turn around and sell at point A for a profit. Perhaps this means that it may only accept higher quality items, perhaps it only takes iron items (maybe point A has no iron). Maybe they don't want clothes or cloth as point A exports these in great quantities.

After a few seasons, the player should start to see a pattern. The caravan would bring mostly items that they wish to purchase. The amount of items the caravan would bring would be enough to nearly clear out the player of the items the caravan is willing to accept, or at least clear the player out of the amount of items that he has shown he is willing to sell.

If its profitable for the merchants, they would start bringing more wagons along. We could start seeing that the fall caravan would see 12 wagons bringing in booze, and then one wagon leaving filled with golden crafts that we have made. If profits are not to be found, perhaps we are not interested in cloth, and that is the only thing of interest from point A is cloth, and the player never wants to buy cloth, a caravan from point A may stop coming.

Note in a situation where a caravan that goes A-B-C-Fort, we can treat it all as C-Fort, where everything A and B supply and demand are also supplies and demanded from C. The overhead costs (A and B are farther, so it cost more to transport there) for items from A and B would be higher though, so you might have to pay alot for that iron anvil imported all the way from the dwarven capital.

(A quick note, the fort in these situations is at the end of a route, the caravan would essentially just turn around and do the whole thing backwards after they leave, ie: A-Fort-A or A-B-C-Fort-C-B-A).
 
In a situation where a caravan goes A-Fort-B-Fort-A, essentially the Fort is along the middle of a route, we will see mostly the same type of behavior. The main difference is that there is more flexibility in how the caravan could make a profit. Perhaps the same caravan would come in Fall, and then again in Spring. In Fall it would be coming from A, and in Spring coming from B. At each time it would accept and bring different items.

A quick note. Alot of this behavior (the motivation of the caravan masters) could be abstracted depending on how complex Toady ends up making the global economy.

So how does all of this add up to a better gameplay experience?

Well, caravans should bring mostly only items that the player is going to buy. Perhaps the first few caravans that come buy don't get it quit right, but the caravans are still learning at that point. Each caravan should have someone who negotiates the content of the next caravan, as currently works. I don't think they should be called liasons (that implies they are official government officials), and I think in most cases the caravans would be simply merchants looking to make a profit. Perhaps the dwarven caravans are headed by some dwarven official but in other cases it should simply be negotiated withe the "caravan master."

Second, caravans will be selective about what they buy. There is alot of ways in which they could be selective. They could care about quality, material, quantity (don't want to buy more than a certain number), or just what the item is (mug, toy, weapon, ect). Of course it could be a combination of all these things. Some things may just be valued less, other things they may not except at all. Maybe they value rock crafts much less than metal crafts. And then maybe they do not even accept cloth items. Just an example.

The result of this is that the player would not be able to simply churn out crap. They would have to cater the caravans, and as they sell more stuff, the caravan capacity may increase. I think all of these things would make the whole trading and crafting feel not only much more balanced, but much more organic as well.
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Langdon

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Re: Winning is chilled out
« Reply #104 on: August 01, 2008, 08:19:23 am »

<snip>

So how does all of this add up to a better gameplay experience?

Well, caravans should bring mostly only items that the player is going to buy. Perhaps the first few caravans that come buy don't get it quit right, but the caravans are still learning at that point. Each caravan should have someone who negotiates the content of the next caravan, as currently works. I don't think they should be called liasons (that implies they are official government officials), and I think in most cases the caravans would be simply merchants looking to make a profit. Perhaps the dwarven caravans are headed by some dwarven official but in other cases it should simply be negotiated withe the "caravan master."

Second, caravans will be selective about what they buy. There is alot of ways in which they could be selective. They could care about quality, material, quantity (don't want to buy more than a certain number), or just what the item is (mug, toy, weapon, ect). Of course it could be a combination of all these things. Some things may just be valued less, other things they may not except at all. Maybe they value rock crafts much less than metal crafts. And then maybe they do not even accept cloth items. Just an example.

The result of this is that the player would not be able to simply churn out crap. They would have to cater the caravans, and as they sell more stuff, the caravan capacity may increase. I think all of these things would make the whole trading and crafting feel not only much more balanced, but much more organic as well.

That's actually a full economy simulator :-) like from Elite and similar games.

Tying this to the difficulty tweaking, this can be one of the risk/reward thingies I was mentioning a while back. Settle in risky areas, and gain access to minerals or herbs (or animal parts) that are rare or in demand back at the capital. Maybe the dwarven king likes something exotic, like giant eagle feathers or fire imp leather - you can sell such items for huge profits, but there's also the risk of settling in a dangerous area (and making sure when you kill the imps, the bodies don't fall back into the vent).

The actual trade goods information can come from your broker's skill - a good broker might be able to find this information from talking with caravan merchants, or even new immigrants. There would be a screen from the nobles' page that tells you which goods are in demand from the civs and cities you are in contact with.

It might be good to know this information before embark, as well... maybe in the Legends screens?
Knowing your king has a fetish for nightwing leather boots might make you try and look for terrifying deserts, or knowing that the local temple demands Golden Salve may make to want to look for locations with valley herb.
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