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Author Topic: Creating a magic system?  (Read 43695 times)

Tormy

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Creating a magic system?
« on: September 09, 2008, 11:23:26 am »

I just came upon this, and its a good read, especially since DF will use some kind of magic system later on.
Perhaps it will be helpful for Toady also.

CREATING A MAGIC SYSTEM
In most fantasy games, you will likely wish to include some sort of magic. Including magic can be fun, but it can also be taxing. Many leave magic as a very open-ended subject, letting those who join decide upon how the magic will work for their character. It is important to clearly define how your magic system works so less confusion will surface later. I will cover Basic Magic Concepts, Spell-Casting Procedure Methods, Accessories, Limitations, and Elemental Inclusion.

(I) Basic Magic Concepts
These govern the entire origin of magical energy in your magic system. It is important to take great care and detail when choosing an area and tweaking it to your needs, because this is the basis for the your whole magic system. There are 3 main divisions of magic that I have compiled: Inner, Outer, and Object. Usually a magic system will feature a combination of these 3 to varying degrees, but the choice is all up to you.
INNER
Inner Magic deals with spells that derive their energy from the individual. Such concepts as Chakra emphasize such an inner energy. To perform a spell, one must usually focus and release their inner energy to achieve the desired effect. This source of inner energy is usually limited but can be restored through rest or nourishment. The user's physical fortitude does hinder the use of Inner Magic, because it is directly linked with physical fortitude. The basis for inner energy is upon the physical and mental/emotional energy that we use throughout every day.
OUTER
Outer Magic deals with spells that derive their energy from everything around them. Such concepts as Chi emphasize such an outer energy. To perform a spell, one must usually will and channel the outer energy to achieve the desired effect. This source of magic is usually ever-replenishing, being scarce in some areas due to many spells being cast in tandem. The user's physical fortitude will most likely hinder the use of Outer Magic, because great amounts of strength are required to command the loose/free energy. The basis for outer energy is upon how air flows through our atmosphere and is used by our bodies.
OBJECT
Object Magic deals with spells that derive their energy from artifacts that contain and radiate magical energy. To my knowledge, no existing real-world concept emphasizes such an object energy, though it is related to in a myriad of myths and the like. To perform a spell, one must somehow intelligently utilize an artifact to achieve the desired effect. This source of magic is usually limited but can be recharged by various means. The user's physical fortitude does not hinder the use of Object Magic, as it usually requires little strength. The basis for object energy might be upon radioactivity and how waves pass through and react to matter.

(II) Spell-Casting Procedure Methods
Spell-casting is usually done by some expression of the caster. While not using any is possible, these will usually be utilized efficiently. This is a list of procedures possible to perform the casting of a spell. I have thought of 3 main categories: Vocal, Manual (Tactile and Physical), and Visual.
VOCAL
Vocal casting involves recitations, invocations, incantation, and chants. The purpose is to proclaim a certain word or phrase aloud. Usually, the louder spoken, the better. The longer the phrase, the stronger the spell. While vocal casting may be said mentally, that is commonly reserved for very skilled magic users.
MANUAL
Manual casting, divided into Tactile and Manual, deals with actions.
TACTILE
Tactile casting deals with executing a sequence of hand signs and/or body positions. Usually, the clearer the hand signs and/or body positions, the better. The more steps in a chain of hand signs and/or body positions, the stronger the spell. To avoid misunderstanding, I will provide an example: "To cast a spell, one might have to squat and clasp their hands tightly."
PHYSICAL
Physical casting deals with motions, striking objects, and maybe even dancing. Usually, the more detailed the ritual, the better. The longer it takes to perform a ritual, the stronger the spell. Since this is a more confusing and vague area, I will provide an example: "To cast a spell, one might have to run in a circle around a flame while brandishing their sword mightily."
VISUAL
Visual casting encompasses symbols drawn and words written on some medium. The purpose is to relate a geometric or odd shapes to a spell. Usually, the more defined the drawing, the better. The more intricate the symbol, the more powerful the spell. While visual casting may be pictured mentally, that is commonly reserved for very skilled magic users. If using words, it could simply be a different form of Vocal casting, seeing as the same words could be either spoken or written.

(III) Spell Limitations
Almost always, roleplay creators choose to place limits upon magic through various means (if not a part of the plot or magic system, then to provide balance as a roleplay mechanic). This can be achieved in different ways. I have organized the 9 most significant limitations: Mana Cost, Cast Time, Malfunction, Disabilities, Prerequisites, Complexity, Specifics, Laws, and Principles. A good magic system will implement many of these, but there are many exceptions.
MANA COST
This is probably the most important limitation to place. Basically, from whatever form of energy your magic system draws, there has to be limit. This can be either upon the energy's remaining amount itself or upon the individual's stamina. This is usually scaled according to a spell's magnitude, duration, and range. Such, powerful, long, and far-range spells will cost much more than weak, short, and close-range spells. There should always be a cost for any spell.
CAST TIME
Another good limitation, it defines the time involved in spell-casting or preparation thereof. Cast Time can be divided into 2 areas: Warm-Up and Cool-Down. Warm-Up is the time before and during the casting of the spell (but before its effect is manifested). Cool-Down is the time after a spell's manifestation has ended before another spell may be cast. Insta-casts, spells with no cast time, have their place, but they should mainly be used with either weak spells or when other limitations satisfactorily limit the spell's use.
MALFUNCTION
This limitation is useful for unrefined and unpracticed spells. Possible Malfunction balances out powerful spells as well, because all the other limitations that go into casting the spell might be wasted if the effect does not work properly. Malfunction may also occur when certain prerequisites aren't met, or if the casting of the spell is somehow interrupted. The basic areas of malfunction are Backfire, Failure, and Diminish. Backfire means that the effects of the cast spell are redirected to you instead of the target. Alternatively, if a spell that is meant to be cast upon yourself backfires, it would redirect to another entity. Failure is simply when the effect of the cast spell doesn't happen. Diminish decreases the effect of the cast spell, reducing its magnitude, duration, or range.
DISABILITIES
This limitation covers boundaries placed when a spell has been cast. For instance, a given spell might require that the caster stay motionless for its duration. So, the caster will be unable to move. The most common use of Disability is mandating that no spell can be cast while the effects of another are still being manifested. For more potent spells, the price might even be loss of one of the 5 senses or stunted health. There are numerous other possible disabilities that can be applied to spells.
PREREQUISITES
An overlooked limitation, it governs the conditions necessary for a spell's effect to be manifested. It is often the precursor of the 2 Manual Spell-Casting Methods. As an example, a spell might require direct contact with the target; so the prerequisite limitation for casting that spell is that the caster be within contact distance of the target. Prerequisites have several other auxiliary uses during the spell-casting process.
COMPLEXITY
This limitation is either not considered often or is naturally woven into other aspects of your magic system. Regardless, I felt it needed mention here. Complexity is the gauge of the difficulty of correctly remembering and properly performing spell-casting procedure methods. While Informant Accessories can alleviate this problem somewhat, you then must keep your accessory safe, have the time to find the information within, and comprehend what is read. Complexity also affects situations where time is important, such as in mid-battle and while sneaking around. So, Complexity may also cause an increase in the regular Warm-Up Cast Time of a spell.
SPECIFICS
Occasionally, the very nature of a spell's effect poses a problem for the caster. For instance, a spell might only affect those with a certain trait. Such, nobody else would be affected, and there's nothing that can be done to change that. This is a strong limitation for spells that would otherwise be too great. It should be used but cautiously. In example, a given spell might impede genetic water-breathing ability; so those belonging to a race of amphibious people would suffer while solely land-dwellers wouldn't be affected.
LAWS
Though not a true limitation to any spell itself, it does affect their use. Laws are governmental orders and rules that pertain to the use of magic in the roleplay world. Maybe all forms of spell-casting would be illegal in certain towns. Certain groups of spells may not be allowed during the day.
PRINCIPLES
Magical principles are certain standards that a magic system follows inherently. These principles are made of different aspects of your magic system made universal. They are usually for the purpose of imposing a certain mechanic upon all members in your roleplay. These is more important for the more obscure magic in your system, like abjuration, transmutation, and apothecary.

(IV) Elemental Inclusion
Including elements in a magic system is vastly popular, but remember to keep balance in check. A majority of these will feature the 4 classical western elements of air, water, earth, and fire. Naturally, no elemental system is restricted to these. There are a nearly infinite number of variations and possibilities such as electricity, ice, vapor, nature, sand, lava, metal, and sound. I purposely chose to not have any magic types relating to pure, light, or dark magic listed, because I feel that they aren't the same as other elements (concerning balance, especially cyclic harmony). Whatever the choice of elements, there are 4 serious considerations: Environmental Reliance, Cyclic Harmony, Tolerances, and Affinities.
ENVIRONMENTAL RELIANCE
A field that is nearly always left vague is Environment Reliance. Environmental Reliance is simply the need for a pre-existing elemental source. The two choices are either Synthesis or Terra. Synthesis is independent of environmental conditions, while Terra is reliant upon the sate of the environment. Air- and Earth-based magic usually don't encounter the problem of environmental reliance, but water- and fire-based magic need the clarification. Since what I've said so far isn't terribly clear, I will give an example. If your magic system follows synthesis, a fire spell will work no matter where it is used (unless underwater, of course). However, if your magic system follows terra, a fire spell will need to draw from an existing substantial source of flame.
CYCLIC HARMONY
Cyclic Harmony maintains a balance of elements in a magic system. To put it simply, for every element, one element dominates it and another element is dominated by it. Often increased or decreased damage is associated with the relationships in the cycle. When arranged, they make a cycle of superiority and inferiority. If there is an even number of elements in the cycle, every element will have its polar opposite.
TOLERANCES
Tolerances are a way of making a character resistant against one element and vulnerable against its opposite (it must be proportional to be fair). Naturally, having more protection against an element (like thick clothing against cold magic) isn't the same as a true elemental tolerance. Choosing to make characters equally tolerant of all elements is fine, as it is still equal to utilizing tolerances. Whether or not to give your players the option of elemental tolerances is a tough choice.
AFFINITIES
These are quite similar to Resistances, but they deal with casting, not receiving, spells. Affinities are a way of making a character exceptionally talented at one element and extremely horrible at its opposite (it must be proportional to be fair). Obviously, a character using an element more frequently (because they happen to know more spells of that element) doesn't define an affinity. Choosing to make characters equally talented at all elements is fine, as it is still equal to utilizing affinities. Whether or not to give your players the option of elemental affinities is a tough choice.

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Granite26

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2008, 11:35:08 am »

Came upon?

Credit?

Tormy

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2008, 11:45:51 am »

Came upon?

Credit?

This is Yoder's theory about creating a magic system. You can find him on the RPG Manager site.  8)
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Granite26

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2008, 12:07:21 pm »

It'd be polite to put up a link if you're going to quote the guy.

Chthonic

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2008, 12:29:44 pm »

This is something I just posted in the thread on religion, but it's probably more pertinent here:

Overall, I think that the low-magic world is a bit refreshing.  I'd love to see it kept as more of a Clark Ashton Smith / Robert E. Howard flavor, where magic is the purview of a few bizarre or twisted mortal practitioners and many fantastic demons/gods/monsters/spirits.

I'm kinda meh about every dwarf (or even elf or human) and his uncle tossing fireballs or holy swords around.  When you see magic in the game, it should be MAGIC--strange, awesome, unexpected, powerful verging on cataclysmic . . .


I mean, this is just IMHO, of course, and I haven't read the devnotes or stories as closely as I might.  Maybe Toady intends to saturate the world with easily-accessible magic for the masses?  Dunno.
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Granite26

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2008, 12:41:59 pm »

Chthonic,

I agree with you about a low-magic world being the ideal (I'm rather ambivilant towards the idea of actual PCs ever having magic in the first place)

However, magic is going to be in the game eventually, whether it's simply artifacts with effects(in the devnotes), strange wizards in their towers (also in the notes), or a full fledged ability for characters to work magic.

Personally, I'm leaning towards a wizards as worldgen entities similar to megabeasts (Gandalf types), with a secondary choice of magic being extremely hard to come by (maybe like swimming, if you don't start with it you'll never really get it.)

Anyway, long story short, it makes sense to talk about how it should feel.  Not in any decision making capacity, but just having those discussions in a theoretical sense.

EverybodylovesTJ

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2008, 01:40:07 pm »

I would like to see a Wizard Noble Class.

It sounds horrible, but hey, it comes with the magic territory.

Anyways, the WN would come in when:

A. You've made so many artifacts.
B. Ambient Magic Fields are strong. (Depends on magic settings)
C. You've killed a powerful magic (megabeast) being, and they wish to know how it worked.
D. Randomly.

As a Noble, you would only get one. However, he/she may or may not wish to pass on it's knowledge to a student. This would probably have to be a child. He could either instruct the child INFort, or OUTFort.
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Soadreqm

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2008, 01:50:50 pm »

I think something to the style of Lord of the Rings would fit DF quite nicely. There's a grand total of about seven wizards in the whole world, and instead of tossing fireballs they mess around with politics and own towers. There's also a bunch of gods and demons around, and they occasionally bestow blessings, curses and quests. And in the case of demons, control goblin civs. A few magical creatures here and there, dragons and trolls and talking trees and so on. And by far the most visible form of magic is the plethora of magical weapons, armour, et cetera made by legendary craftspeople of old. Magic swords. Magic seeing stones. Magic rings. Magic bottles of starlight.

Anyway, knowing Toady, whatever he finally implements will probably somehow involve procedurally generated content and have world generation parameters and editable raw files to alter its behaviour.
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Tormy

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2008, 04:01:16 pm »

It'd be polite to put up a link if you're going to quote the guy.

Ah its a simple forum post, nothing serious stuff...but yeah I shouldve posted the name of the creator in the first place.  :-X


I would like to see a Wizard Noble Class.

It sounds horrible, but hey, it comes with the magic territory.

Anyways, the WN would come in when:

A. You've made so many artifacts.
B. Ambient Magic Fields are strong. (Depends on magic settings)
C. You've killed a powerful magic (megabeast) being, and they wish to know how it worked.
D. Randomly.

As a Noble, you would only get one. However, he/she may or may not wish to pass on it's knowledge to a student. This would probably have to be a child. He could either instruct the child INFort, or OUTFort.

Hm...I dont know. I can only think about a dwarf caster as he is relying on the powers of Earth.
Create golems [mud/rock/adamntine for example], AoE spells [earthquake or quicksand for example], Some protection spells [stoneskin for example] etc.
Also Im not sure that this caster should be part of the nobility actually. Later on, it would be a good idea to bring casters with our armies. Now if this caster will be a noble, there will be only 1 caster...Im not sure that it will be enough..and it wouldnt make much sense at all. Dwarf armies with hundreds of dwarves and one caster only?
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Granite26

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2008, 04:27:26 pm »

It's a flavour thing.  If it's noble, there's only ever one and they are rare and special and the 'cost' is already programmed in.  It's a question of whether casting a spell is more like throwing lightning bolts at the the target to up your magic skill or your wizard going into a strange mood and turning the entire seiging force into plump helmets.

Tormy

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2008, 04:47:16 pm »

It's a flavour thing.  If it's noble, there's only ever one and they are rare and special and the 'cost' is already programmed in.  It's a question of whether casting a spell is more like throwing lightning bolts at the the target to up your magic skill or your wizard going into a strange mood and turning the entire seiging force into plump helmets.

Well yeah, Dominions 3's spell system is just plain awesome. There are regular spellcasters capable of casting some minor spells like a lightning bolt, while there are mighty ritual spells, capable of destroying an army even. Only the God of the nation can cast rituals. The main wizard of a given civilization could act like a God in Doms3, that way there will be only one / civ, however regular/minor battlefield spellcasters would be still there and kicking.
Now the question is what would be the role of the main wizard [noble] in the life of the civilizations.
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Granite26

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2008, 05:04:34 pm »

Well, from a game/world design perspective, the questions I would ask is:

A: How prevelant is magic?
    1.  How many people have access to magical abilities?
    2.  How accessible are those people?
    3.  How hard is it for players to access
        a:  Adventure Mode
        b:  Dwarves

B:  How powerful is the magic?
    1.  Raw damage potential
    2.  Raw distance potential

C:  How flashy is the magic?
    1.  Lightning bolts vs +2 to hit

After I answered those questions, I would start thinking about how I wanted the flavour to be.  (DnD Wizards vs Sorcerers vs Clerics, common RPG MP,  fatigue based systems, skill based talents)

To actually answer your question, I would see the high level casters be megabeasts/civs with their own worshippers (maybe taking over civs a la Demons), and having diplomatic relations with the nations.  (rather than getting the caravan from them, the wizard himself shows up, with effects discussed in another thread). 

I don't think there should be a 'spellslinger' class.

I think the mage(noble) should act something like the dungeon master does, performing a few useful duties around the fort at his leisure.  For dwarves, it just about fits that he encrusts with gems, sews on patches, and studs with metal, with a (small but modable) chance to add a minor artifact power when he does so to a masterwork item.  (+1 to hit, flaming, healing beds, whatever ends up being on the artifacts, but VASTLY toned down).

Idiom

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2008, 05:19:14 pm »

Interesting read.

I would like it if magic in DF was kept to an absolute minimum. Like HFS is now. It should be dealt with rarely and in late game. Wizards settling in your fort as a whole other kind of noble is what I imagined. Keep him happy, and he can do some magical favors. He'll pick an apprentice to take, and train the apprentice until his death or the apprentice catches up. I don't think there should be more than 1 or 2 wizards per fortress, and that the apprentice or the original wizard should leave once their training is done. They should be attracted in the first place by the presence of natural magic, a high standard of living, wealth, or looking for and finding the right apprentice at your fort.

When he's not happy (IE Urist McDrunk takes a swing at him), should he start cursing things, or just leave?

Artifacts should not have any magic on their own unless they come in contact with a magical being who purposefully infuses it with magic. I think all objects should be enchantable, but artifacts being much more powerful and preferred.

Should spells require resources to cast, or should mana just regenerate on it's own?
IE: sacrifice 6 cattle and the wizard will agree to strike down the siege outside.
Give him 10 gold bars and he'll turn the lake into molten silver.
5 Diamonds and he'll make a bed of healing.
etc

Could you make offerings to foreign or neutral wizards and ask for favors?
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Granite26

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2008, 05:25:45 pm »

I like the bribery idea for wizards in Adventure mode, although I don't know that I think Fortress players should ever get a 'magic' window.

It may be time to start a new magic thread a la all the other managed threads out there, to track all the thoughts about the various systems.  There's a lot of good suggestions in the logs, but it's short on long discussions about ALL the possibilities.  Unfortunately I fear it will turn into a lot of trolling comments by people who don't want magic, or don't like a specific kind of magic listed in the full possibilities list. /bitter.  anyway, If ya'll are interested, go to it.  I'm already full up.

Chthonic

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2008, 05:38:48 pm »

I like Granite26's idea on a managed thread.  I'd like to see all of the possibilities gathered in one place to be discussed (even if I'm pretty securely in the low magic camp).

In the end, I have great faith in Toady.  Game is great so far, promises to be great in the future, and its creator has a Vision; however it works out--low magic or high--I'm sure that it's a product we'll all be happy playing and experiencing.
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