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Author Topic: Generalized Theory of Magic  (Read 4090 times)

MagicJuggler

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2008, 06:11:58 pm »

Oooh...plus we'd have a nice use for all those prisoners we tend to collect. "Sacrifice Prisoner" would generate extra death energy which could be channeled for dark magic or (inefficiently) for other forms of magic.
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Virex

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2008, 06:43:50 pm »

To summarize and expand upon the original suggestion and several others that have come up (note, this contains a lot of my own interpretation):

Focus and Control
Magic is a form of energy that can be accessed by anyone, assuming that person has the right qualities. Two main characteristics are related to this: focus and control. Focus indicates how much magical power a being can actually call upon, and control determines it's ability to shape this raw power into something useful.

Both focus and control have a natural component, but they can be amplified in various ways, depending on the characteristics of the creature. This means that someone who has little natural focus could in theory become very powerful when given the right kind of stimulant. However, someone who's focus has been boosted strongly might not have enough control to actually shape it to their will, possibly resulting in a lot of fun.

The stimulants that can amplify control and focus depend highly on personal and racial characteristics and affinity for stimulants might develop over time. Here's a proposal of how this could be divided, though it's by no means complete:
In general, elves are more susceptible to natural substances, poetry and fine gestures.
Humans use many gestures, combined with words or sentences with mystical meaning. In general they are also more susceptible to gems and precious metal.
Dwarves are most susceptible to runes as well as different metal and stone types.
Goblins draw a lot of power from bones and meat and are also very susceptible to shiny objects.

Which stimulants a person is susceptible to is also very dependent upon their surroundings when they learn magic and what they come into contact with under pressure, though this may also affect it in a bad way.

The actual process of magic
Magic involves calling upon the free magical energy that is available and in general using one's body as a cataclyst. This means that someone with a high focus must also be able to contain and channel the energy and that the use of magic puts a big strain on the body and soul. As said, the use of magic costs as much constitution as actually doing it, though the drain is spread in another way and the mind is more capable of handling the strain.
Calling upon a God is a good way to ensure that you can channel the energy in a safe way. A god can either directly grant the request (which happens rarely) or aid the user by giving them the means to channel and contain magic needed to generate a similar effect. This means that priests relying on their gods must still be skilled in the way of magic to maximize this potential, and they need to have a very strong bond with their god, or else he might not help ;)

Using magic in this way also means that the body itself must be able to contain the magic. Magic users drawing upon the plane of fire to create a gout of fire will generally burn themselves, though the damage can be limited by feeding the magic through the fingertips or using other objects as focal points, even though it's not possible to completely eradicate the problem.

These focal points are usually light objects that can be pointed and held far from the body (for safety measures), meaning most magic users use a staff or wand (usually containing or made of a stimulant), even though a spear would also do. Pretty much any object could be used when it's in a good position or the magic user is skilled enough to channel the energy in the right way. Casters can of course aid each other by focusing their energy into the same focal points to generate effects a single magic user could not create, but this means that each of the casters must be trying to achieve the exact same effect, or else the spells will interfere.

As said, when creating a magical effect in any way, the caster must be able to imagine the process and the effect. Usually this requires a lot of knowledge, though many things can be learned through trail and error, especially when it comes to destructive effects and effects that change the properties of objects.

One last interesting thing about focal points is that it is possible to partially focus an effect into it. The spell has been evoked but not yet completed. This means that anyone who is capable of focusing enough energy into the focal point can unleash the spell. The amount of energy a magic user can focus before a spell actually "goes off" depends largely on their skill level. A champion magic user can imbue items in such a way that even someone who's completely oblivious about the ways of magic can use it.
Potions work in a similar way. They are a combination of stimulants that are known to generate specific effects in most and they are imbued with additional spells. The net effect of this combination is that the consumption of a potion will directly unleash the spells inside, at least in most cases. This also means that many potions are race specific and some are gender specific.
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Neonivek

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2008, 06:44:39 pm »

Alright Ive seen this a lot... why do people sometimes make their whole post a quote of what was already said in the same topic? is it a way of agreeing?
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Demonic Gophers

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2008, 08:13:36 pm »

Here's something worth looking at when considering this topic, for anyone who hasn't seen it.
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Granite26

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2008, 10:27:02 pm »

Alright Ive seen this a lot... why do people sometimes make their whole post a quote of what was already said in the same topic? is it a way of agreeing?

I think a lot of times they are failing to put their comments outside of the /quote tag.

Basically markup failure and proofread laziness

Silverionmox

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2008, 04:32:29 am »

The concept of magic is mostly based on the assumption that desires can change reality. I think that could be a good starting point.
Additionally, there can beings with that property, and their origin will have to be explained in a creation myth. Everything else follows.
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Virex

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2008, 05:31:23 am »

HEY! I didn't quote myself, now did I ???

All I did was try to modify my original post, so that might be the problem...
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Demonic Gophers

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2008, 12:57:46 pm »

HEY! I didn't quote myself, now did I ???

All I did was try to modify my original post, so that might be the problem...

It appears you hit the wrong button.
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MagicJuggler

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2008, 03:55:09 pm »

Considering the building-block nature of a large number of items in Dwarf Fortress, magic would work best as a building-block system rather than having a grand series of large spells. Dwarves are capable of primitive harnessing of the forces of nature around them (e.g. carrying caged Fire Men around to provide heating) and these tricks should be expanded upon as they wouldn't necessarily make the Dwarves a magic-centric race; importing caged ice elementals to freeze a river for damming projects would be an example of using external forces for your own good.

Alchemy in a lot of regards corresponds with basic chemistry, the idea of different items being creatable from different mixtures/compounds/etc. This is fine and good. That there are so many fantastical objects out there (such as liquid fire) does mean that there would be more opportunities to create fantastical devices, and the ability to create alchemical weapons (e.g. liquid fire grenades) or modify existing weapons (poison arrows) would be plausible.

Runeforging is perhaps the most Dwarven of magics of course; the ability to empower magic items with specialized upgrades would allow for lesser forms of artifacts. There would have to be limits though such as only runes of a minimum quality would be acceptable (e.g. normal quality runes would be tossed out as a Dwarf would never accept a shoddy rune as a receptacle of magic), and an item can only up to a variable number of runes depending on the quality of the item, and the quality of the rune may not exceed the quality of the item. Artifacts may not be given Runes that are not Artifact runes (they are already magical enough). Depending on the sphere alignment of the runecrafter, and the letters engraved into the rune (Using a form of younger Futhark perhaps), and the item that has been enhanced by the rune, the item would give a bonus. E.g. armor or furniture with Sohwilo (sun) would generate sunlight in a radius around the armorbearer by default, but a Sohwilo crafted by a darkness-aligned Dwarf might blot out the sun in an area. A fire-aligned Dwarf with Sohwilo and a weapon might make the weapon sear the flesh of undead.

Humans and Elves would have a more conventional system, perhaps based on noun-verb combinations. E.g. "Create+Fire", "Destroy+Tree", etc. This would be simpler to implement in theory.
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alfie275

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2008, 05:49:16 pm »

Any comments on my idea?
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Neonivek

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2008, 05:57:24 pm »

Any comments on my idea?

Too mechanical.
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alfie275

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2008, 06:04:41 pm »

The machines you mean? There just for if u dont have mages. My idea of the casting system is so theres not a preset set of spells, u cud have spells, and the player shud be able to make them.
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Neonivek

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2008, 06:07:14 pm »

The machines you mean? There just for if u dont have mages. My idea of the casting system is so theres not a preset set of spells, u cud have spells, and the player shud be able to make them.

No I mean your idea of magic is too mechanical...

Wizard: "I cast, raise ambient temperature by 100 points spell!"
Mage: "I defend myself by raising melting point an extra 50 points"
Wizard: "Ohh your good, I add two to my weapon's mass"
Mage: "Quick I must increase the surface tension of his clothing thus causing it to rip by a factor of two and then increase errosion by 52%"
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Thymouspanis

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2008, 06:13:18 pm »

There seems to be general agreement that magic should be implemented in such a way that it requires investment and sacrifice to exploit, is fundamentally related to the environment and religion, resembles in a familiar way many real world conceptions of magic, and is simple at first, but can be expanded with small or large additions that do not change too drastically the underlying system. This is a stab at coming up with a flexible, bottom-up magic system based on an equation of magic power (which I will refer to with the convenient term 'mana') to life, intelligence, and identity. The skeletal system, which I have emboldened out of guilt, is simple – the rest of this monstrous post is brainstorming about things the system would allow or ways in which it could go into detail. Keep in mind that because magic is usually an explanation for phenomena without obvious causes, introduction of distinct magic to the game brings overlaps between scientific and magical determinations for things, particularly involving religion, thought, capability, and nature; when a creature dies, for example, has it lost its soul with its heartbeat or vice versa?

Mana would be a quantifiable substance and animating force found, by those who know how to look, in all creatures, magical objects, and the environment in the form (or lack thereof) of spirits. It would come in complicated, mixable, and filterable flavors, of which every magical thing has one, that tie in to personality traits, spheres, and terrain and can differ in subtle or drastic ways. Spirits and appropriately skilled creatures (and in some cases magical objects) could magically manipulate each other and objects around them, releasing into the local area (no idea how local this should be, but I'm thinking on the scale of world map tiles) some of his/her/its mana in an amount proportional to the power of the magic being done, the magic-doer's lack of appropriate skill, and the difference in location and mana flavor between the magic-doer and the target. In other words, magical influence could be procured by practicing/studying magic, assimilating one's own mana to that of the target by manipulating either or both, increasing one's proximity to the target (touching might help), or simply hoarding a lot of mana. It might also add some depth if there are ways to exploit the mana of a third party over which one has much influence, rather than one's own.

The amount and average flavor of all mana in a world would be constant
– also fun worldgen parameters. To be perfectly clear, mana would never be regenerated for its user, and running out of or low on it would not be a common or pleasant occurrence. When mana is used or something with mana is destroyed, it becomes part of the environment and forms one or more spirits, which have locations, but no bodies or appearance, and wander around the local area, sometimes using their power to do things like enchant various features of the landscape, generate illusions, reanimate corpses, or absorb one another. The flavor of the spirits' mana in a region at worldgen would be appropriate to the local terrain. Their behavior is determined by the flavor of their mana (a phenomenon that could replace the good/evil map properties) and the more they acquire of it, the less tied to the area and the more intelligent they become, sometimes to the point where a spirit can influence people to worship it as a god. When a worshipper of a spirit dies, his/her/its mana might go to that spirit, wholly or in part, perhaps requiring a certain ritual burial/cremation. A powerful deity might invest some mana into one of its followers both to give him/her special powers and to have more direct control, or create an incarnation of itself over which it has full control.

Every species would have an ideal flavor and quantity of mana for an individual,
of which the flavor is that of its ideal environment, and the quantity generally greater for more intelligent creatures. When a creature is born, its mana is drawn from the environment, in an amount determined by what is ideal and what is available, as with its flavor, which could be filtered out, but perhaps in a smaller quantity when there is a big difference in flavor. When they die, their mana goes to their current environment, their object of worship, or a combination thereof (or maybe in some cases some sort of ghost). In this way would the magical nature of creatures relate to their environment, a species' ideal environment be determined, and more populated areas be less magical. Different species would have different tolerance for variation from ideal mana flavor and quantity, making those with more such tolerance better equipped to do magic. Unlike spirits, which are defined by their mana and change their nature with it, creatures suffer from having unnatural amounts and flavors of mana. Too little mana might make a creature less intelligent, driven, capable, caring – whatever one might associate with soullessness; too much mana might make a creature overly emotional and exerting, and some of the mana surplus might spontaneously perform magic; an unnatural flavor of mana might result in mostly undesirable physical and mental changes related to the flavor, such as blindness, hallucination, changes in size or personality, real-world medical symptoms, loss of mana over time, invisibility, even partial or full transformations into other animals, plants, or objects.

Magical objects would have magical powers triggered by their use or by magic. These powers would be determined by the mana flavor and form of the object. If an object is designed to do something, a magic one should be able to do it magically.  When infused with enough mana, things resembling creatures – statues and especially corpses – should be able to move without expending too much mana and think for themselves as an animal with as much mana would, only with less feeling. Runes could be used to 'program' an object to use certain powers under certain conditions which may not require use or knowledge of magic to bring about – for example, to make a weapon that helps swing itself. Books and scrolls would be best suited to complicated runic magic. Dwarves would invest a significant fraction of their own mana into artifacts they create (perhaps after receiving mana from an inspirational spirit). Magical objects might also show up around a fortress if dwarves accidently or otherwise make things out of trees, gems, bones etc. enchanted by local spirits. Like creatures, objects would have limited (safe) capacity for mana, perhaps determined by its material. I don't think I need to give more examples of what crazy kinds of magic objects might appear in the game.

Spells would be learned, written down, discovered naturally, and often hidden jealously. Spells that trigger a power of a target (who may not know how to use that power) over which one has magical influence would replace spells involving things like rays and projectiles, or at least be cheaper and/or more powerful alternatives thereto. There would be two or three fundamental spells for manipulating mana: the first transfers a portion of mana from one thing to another or into the environment, the cost of which depends on one's influence over the mana donor and the distance from donor to recipient (which would be zero in the case of the environment); the second is just like the third, only it filters out a specified flavor of mana, and is more costly, perhaps depending on the difference in flavor between the mana being filtered out and being expended; the third spell, which seems crude to me, but is the only way I can imagine certain desired forms of magic working, forms a mystical 'link' between one person/thing and another, which would guarantee a minimum level of mutual influence despite any variance in location or mana flavor. These links would vary in strength (effectiveness), which would be determined by the mutual influence at the time it is formed and the amount of mana expended in forming it. The disadvantage of being linked, is that influence over that to which you are linked carries over to you, depending on its strength. Links are a handy way to implement teleportation, summoning and telepathy without abandoning the distance as an obstacle for magic or forcing players as powerful wizards to move a cursor miles away. Body parts like blood, hair, and horns and frequently used objects could naturally form weak links to their owners (maybe stronger for blood). Spells that provide information would also be an important part of doing magic: these would allow you to detect collections of mana around you, depending on their size and your influence over them, and recursively to discover what they know and are linked to. One should also be able to transfer their mind to someone/something else, (spirits should be able to split their minds and directly control any number of things, but for the sake of playability I think creatures should be limited to one mind) though one should be able to simply use magic to impel someone to do something, perhaps by causing them to hallucinate. There would probably be a need for spells that prevent other spells from happening Of course, different flavors of mana would be better suited to different types of magic; I imagine, for example, that the desert would be have the best mana for magic involving sensing and illusion, and mountain mana would be particularly effective in objects, but not as much in animals.

From this system arise four extreme types of mage, of which combinations are certainly possible. The first accepts the consequences of corrupting his mana and thus forsakes his mortal from and sanity. Such a mage would be very powerful but short-lived, at least short lived as an identifiable sentience. The second, to avoid the plight of the first, takes mana from others of her own species who, by the way, make obedient if somewhat stupid minions if left a substandard amount of mana. This practice would not endear her to many. The fourth endeavors to gain as much power as healthily and ethically possible by leading a life of incessant study of magic and where to find it, only the most prudent expenditure of mana, and plenty of travel to take from a healthy balance of mana flavors and to collect existing magic objects rather than make her own. Such a life would require substantial funding, either inherited or granted from someone wealthy, perhaps procured through magical favors or promises thereof. The fourth submits himself as a pawn to one or more powerful spirits, counting on them to filter out a healthy flavor of mana to him when he needs it.
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GaGrin

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2008, 07:01:55 pm »

Personally I feel that most of the ideas here are too formulaic and fundamentally much closer to scientific systems than occult magicks.

I'm not going to directly propose anything and I imagine most of what I say will be lost in the void of the thread but I have a couple of points I'd like to get off my chest regarding my feeling on this.

While the following are statements they are only my own interpretation of what I feel is needed from a non-invasive system of magic.

1) Magic is fundamentally about dealing with things unknown or alien.  If the in and out are utterly controllable and calculatable then you haven't got a system of magic per-say, rather odd science.

2) Magic is subtle.  Clear, visible magic should be extremely rare and something that only the greatest and most terrible forces create.  Magicial effects (generally) should be subtle enough that they can be mistaken for natural occurances and likewise, natural flukes taken to be magic.

3) Magic is dangerous.  A wizard maintains control through skill and knowledge - but her knowledge is never truly complete.  Ultimately mages will become over confident and meddle with something outside their knowledge.  Power should rarely be personal, but rather come from discovery, deals with powerful otherworldly entities and ancient fundamental knowledge of existance.

3) Magic is not God.  Perhaps some may interpret this differently, I have a fundamental issue with divine action being identifiable as anything other than a great fortune or failure.  While magicians, demons and angels may practice magic I think it is important that any existing physical powers remain disconnected from any theological being.

When thinking magic think old-school.  Think Merlin, Sauron, the Faerie (and their fucked up lands); think deep powers, demons, hell - Cthulu!

If magic isn't inheriantly dangerous and/or difficult you run the gauntlet of making it everyday.  That WILL kill it, as will making it too weak or too flashy and obvious.  I support folklore, druids and spiritual leaders of all kinds in communities.  I am totally against a Gandalf in every Human town and a Legendary Runemaster in every Dwarven fort.

Adamantine is the approximate level of risk/reward I expect from magic.  Infact Adamantine is a great example of magic in the DF world.  Its a magical material used to imprison demons.
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