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Author Topic: Sparkgear 6: I made the game too hard  (Read 54415 times)

nil

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Re: Sparkgear 6: I made the game too hard
« Reply #315 on: October 27, 2009, 10:43:29 am »

Let's not get too overboard on the rules.  We need a good site, raws that make it possible to play, and turns that run smoothly.  People should label their levers too, I guess. Everything else will work itself out.

AlienChickenPie

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Re: Sparkgear 6: I made the game too hard
« Reply #316 on: October 27, 2009, 10:58:36 am »

Keeping a path open is a good idea. Shutting in makes the game too easy for the players and pretty much ensures that turns will be boring. This is very trivial in a vanilla fortress, but I've never tried it in DD. How easy is it to fend off the orcs without resorting to traps if you start training your army early?
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nil

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Re: Sparkgear 6: I made the game too hard
« Reply #317 on: October 27, 2009, 11:28:53 am »

Orcs are trapavoid anyway, and in my opinion they come way too fast and too hard for an open path rule to be realistic.

edit: that's what she said hay-o
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 11:52:48 am by nil »
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Danarca

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Re: Sparkgear 6: I made the game too hard
« Reply #318 on: October 27, 2009, 12:19:20 pm »

Orcs are trapavoid anyway, and in my opinion they come way too fast and too hard for an open path rule to be realistic.

edit: that's what she said hay-o
In the chaos surrounding the SoFs I had actually forgot about the orcs...
You're right, the open way is not possible with orcs.
In SG V it took about 10 years before we had a trap capable of defeating the orcs, I don't think a head-on military strategy (Hammerdwarves, axeddwarves) are even possibly unless you outnumber the orcs and your entire military is multi-legendary, or legendary in primary+equipped in adamantite.

Might be exaggeration but I've never seen or heard of anyone defeating an orc siege head-on.

The question then, is if we should even include orcs, do they really add to the SG experience?
Sure, they make it harder, but more in a "Be quick to get everyone inside and get the lever pulled damnit"-way than in a regular way, I don't even know how else DF could be challenging, I'm part of the majority here where the daily routine of a fort is no problem.

Anyone with an idea that wouldn't include practically-speaking invincible enemies?

Also, I vote for a larger map (3x3), so there's room for the megaprojects.
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Re: Sparkgear 6: I made the game too hard
« Reply #319 on: October 27, 2009, 01:05:54 pm »

It shouldn't take a decade to get a trap going if the person constructing it has a clear and simple idea in mind. Designing it in advance and having one of the players construct it as a challenge could make it work better, too.
If the orcs are too strong, we can nerf them. Most of all, we should nerf their speed (compared to normal and definitely compared to the zero speed hover-orcs) to make sure they don't just target a child halfway inside the fortress and run through a dwarven shield.
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nil

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Re: Sparkgear 6: I made the game too hard
« Reply #320 on: October 27, 2009, 02:23:24 pm »

Anyone with an idea that wouldn't include practically-speaking invincible enemies?
I made a mod for that, actually.  I feel really silly self-promoting (and this will probably be the last you hear from me on it), but I made it specifically to provide a challenge that isn't so overwhelming that it forces you to turtle up.  It has ten different enemies, all taken from creature standard. The ones that attack early are pretty weak but are followed by progressively more challenging invaders (with the ones in the late game actually being tougher than orcs).  I've played through nearly two full fortresses without any major problems and the reviews generally seem to be positive.

OR we could just nerf the orcs a little, or maybe just give them a 3rd or 4th level trigger.  Not a huge fan of telling players what to build, although obviously if someone builds a kick-ass magma cannon on the second or third turn they would be awesome.

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Re: Sparkgear 6: I made the game too hard
« Reply #321 on: October 27, 2009, 07:01:57 pm »

If you hadn't noticed, the 1x1 last game was entirely built/carved out before two weeks were up. And it leaves you with very little room for fun things like orc arenas. In fact, it's the best way to assure that most players will have almost no room to make their mark. A decently sized map with 3 basic ground rules leaves a TON of room for people to do whatever they want.

Requiring all levers be in a single room and having one main entrance are simple rules of fortress building. Yes, unlabeled levers of doom are awesome. But even on the 1x1 you used this time around,  you can't tell for shit where to find any lever that you didn't build. The details of the room, entrance and shafts are always up for discussion, but you even without people who intentionally spread mischief or even intentionally try to ruin the fort or cause it to go bust on others' turns, you need a way to keep things standardized. This is not about restricting anyone's creativity or even stopping all the insanity, it's just about keeping things playable so you can have MORE insanity.

Also, anyone who protects the main shaft with hatches in a world with flying SoF's deserves 4 hammerstrikes. It's not THAT hard to build a retractable bridge over one level of stairs?
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nil

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Re: Sparkgear 6: I made the game too hard
« Reply #322 on: October 27, 2009, 08:00:35 pm »

If you hadn't noticed, the 1x1 last game was entirely built/carved out before two weeks were up. And it leaves you with very little room for fun things like orc arenas. In fact, it's the best way to assure that most players will have almost no room to make their mark. A decently sized map with 3 basic ground rules leaves a TON of room for people to do whatever they want.
Yeah, I agree with you here, that tiny ass map was way too cramped.

But everything else you're talking about is just enforcing a certain style of play.  For example, I'm not a fan of those vertical staircases.  Maybe it's just because I started in 2d, but I prefer more horizontally oriented hallways.  Also, having multiple entrances can be very effective if you know what you're doing, as it lets you have some access to the outside world even if siegers are camped outside your main gate.

Besides, like Ajar said there's a definite tradition of "anything goes" in Sparkgear.  Have you read the old threads?

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Re: Sparkgear 6: I made the game too hard
« Reply #323 on: October 27, 2009, 09:58:34 pm »

Orcs are trapavoid anyway, and in my opinion they come way too fast and too hard for an open path rule to be realistic.

edit: that's what she said hay-o
In the chaos surrounding the SoFs I had actually forgot about the orcs...
You're right, the open way is not possible with orcs.
In SG V it took about 10 years before we had a trap capable of defeating the orcs, I don't think a head-on military strategy (Hammerdwarves, axeddwarves) are even possibly unless you outnumber the orcs and your entire military is multi-legendary, or legendary in primary+equipped in adamantite.

Might be exaggeration but I've never seen or heard of anyone defeating an orc siege head-on.

The question then, is if we should even include orcs, do they really add to the SG experience?
Sure, they make it harder, but more in a "Be quick to get everyone inside and get the lever pulled damnit"-way than in a regular way, I don't even know how else DF could be challenging, I'm part of the majority here where the daily routine of a fort is no problem.

Anyone with an idea that wouldn't include practically-speaking invincible enemies?

Also, I vote for a larger map (3x3), so there's room for the megaprojects.

Blah, we would have built a trap capable of killing the orcs from scratch in my single turn, if FPS hadn't forced me to surrender the save.
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Re: Sparkgear 6: I made the game too hard
« Reply #324 on: October 28, 2009, 12:01:35 am »

Might be exaggeration but I've never seen or heard of anyone defeating an orc siege head-on.
That'd be me, thank you.
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Re: Sparkgear 6: I made the game too hard
« Reply #325 on: October 28, 2009, 12:56:26 am »

I guess there won't be standardizing in this then. It would be nice to at least know where all the levers are, even if you don't know what they do.
Well if you start assuming things that the rules don't state, like forbidding horizontal hallways to yourself, then yes it would restrict your style. However if you take them at face value and realize that all they do is restrict your number of mining shafts so that everyone has room to build...

All it is supposed to do is centralize your main functions around a single shaft. Of course you can build effing hallways to and from it if you want to. Really? Like the guy who got all pissed I suggested we each build houses for ourselves and lock ourselves in, because he didn't want to kill his character. Well, if you start assuming rules that aren't there like not putting food in the house, then yea your dwarf will end up dead.

Same with having one main entrance. It doesn't mean that there can only ever be one access point, it just means that you keep one single entrance active as your main entrance. If you want to move the entrance, then shut the other one off properly, rather than leaving multiple gaping holes like the last one had. It's just common sense codified so everyone knows what's going on.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 12:58:00 am by The Architect »
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Re: Sparkgear 6: I made the game too hard
« Reply #326 on: October 28, 2009, 04:05:20 am »

Yeah, I'm actually behind something Architect is telling in the end. I had a bad experience in SG5 because I didn't find all the neccessary levers and was lead astray by the size of trap complexes, I thought I could drown the entering orcs but instead I had to watch them slaughter the fortress. The lever of doom was fun though but had no real function! I hope there would be more integrity in the next fortress. SG6 can't be compared with SG3, which is btw pretty awesome.

I like the idea of menacing magma cannon completed on the third turn which ever year that may be. And I like the idea of orc arena, that's very dwarven. Combining these two would be even better. But in the end it's all in the letter.... or something
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Re: Sparkgear 6: I made the game too hard
« Reply #327 on: October 28, 2009, 06:15:32 am »

This is my first contribution to anything involving the Sparkgear series (I have read them all), you guys seem to be obsessed with square maps, why not mix it up a bit?  Have an 16x1 instead of a 4x4 for example?  I'd really like to see what you could do with a rectangular map, I'd expect something fairly awe inspiring.
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Re: Sparkgear 6: I made the game too hard
« Reply #328 on: October 28, 2009, 06:41:02 am »

Square maps are easy to work with and offer a lot of diversity. That said, I've enjoyed a 2x6 map before.  I imagine anything done on something 16x1 would probably be quite restricted. That's a lot of perimeter to guard relative to the area.

The only unique things I can think of for an area like that involve long fluid flows and would kill the FPS. Log flumes, multistory computers to transport a dwarf from one end of the map to the other, etc.

I would love to see more mechanical options in DF, mainly structures that could travel between z-levels like floating platforms.
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ajar

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Re: Sparkgear 6: I made the game too hard
« Reply #329 on: October 28, 2009, 07:29:08 am »

Have an 16x1 instead of a 4x4 for example?  I'd really like to see what you could do with a rectangular map, I'd expect something fairly awe inspiring.

Ur thinking about Moria?
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