Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 14 15 [16] 17 18 ... 35

Author Topic: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution  (Read 77894 times)

NW_Kohaku

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:SCIENCE_FOR_FUN: REQUIRED]
    • View Profile
Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Violate the Earth!
« Reply #225 on: February 22, 2011, 06:53:39 pm »

What I'm assuming is that they are independent variables, not mutually exclusive. That is to say, it is possible to have 1% in one variable and 99% in another variable, and furthermore that there isn't a dependency that says if one measurement is at 50% another will never be at 5%. The assertion that "Chances are if some of the variables are right, then others will be too" has only now been stated. If there are rules of dependency, they will need considerably more clarity before they can be programmed and analysed.

You still seem to be assuming that there should be plants that grow with absolutely no water, however, which shouldn't be the case.  The point isn't to make a system where plants grow in every condition, the point is to make a system where plants have different required amounts of work to reset the conditions back to an initial growing point. 

You don't grow a new plant to add water to the soil, you just water the soil to add water to the soil.  Barring some freaky magic plant, all plants drain water from the soil and require soil moisture to be within some acceptable range of values to grow properly.

The NPK values should be relatively close to one another, since anything that adds to one generally has an effect on the other, although they could generally be considered "independent" of one another.

Pollution variables are all "bad stuff", and things that you want to keep low, just as you generally want to keep NPK and water high.

Crop rotation works to make some variables, like Nitrogen, get rebuilt or at least less thoroughly used while fertilizers are added to the soil. 

Potassium shouldn't be added to the soil through any means besides fertilizers.

The difference between plants is in how much of what nutrients they use, what tolerances they have for lacks of or abundances of certain variables, but not so that plants can knock the soil potassium content around like a ping pong ball fully up and down the scale with alternating plantings.

Anyway, the section I just posted addresses much of this, and the next section I tackle should have the rest of the detailed information on this, so it should hopefully all be made crystal clear by tommorow or the day after at the latest.
Logged
Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare

NW_Kohaku

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:SCIENCE_FOR_FUN: REQUIRED]
    • View Profile
Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Violate the Earth!
« Reply #226 on: February 22, 2011, 10:50:05 pm »

Advanced NPK, Crop Rotation, and Polycultures
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 10:45:04 pm by NW_Kohaku »
Logged
Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare

NW_Kohaku

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:SCIENCE_FOR_FUN: REQUIRED]
    • View Profile
Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Violate the Earth!
« Reply #227 on: February 22, 2011, 10:55:55 pm »

OK, I had nothing really better to do with my night, so I went ahead and wrote another section, which brings me much closer to the conclusion.  This one is the sort of "closing argument" it feels like, since it's tying together so much.

I still need to go back and change it, now, though, since now that I think about it, I need to talk about the specific mechanics of the variable size again.

Speaking of going back and changing stuff, I went and wrote in a couple more sections on the Plant Growth section that I forgot to mention, and felt that was the best place to stuff it.

I only have a couple more sections to write, really.  One is the xenobiology section, which I'm still not entirely sure how I want to handle it, so it's going to be the last major hump to clear, but after that, it's just the nutrition section, and that's the home stretch.  I'm almost done with this monster.   :P  After that, it's just trying to make up my mind on the Interface section.
Logged
Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare

Ethicalfive

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Violate the Earth!
« Reply #228 on: February 24, 2011, 12:33:21 am »

Ok, so this thread is a huge monster, I can't possibly read through it all without devoting a few hours! (did a quick search though to make sure I dont re-post anothers suggestion)

Mushrooms need reworking! I forgive toady for not understanding the nature of fungi, much like most people dont understand the nature of dwarf fortress.

They come as primary decomposers(Wood,straw) and secondary decomposers(manure,compost) or even as mycorizal(synergistic with plant roots). Right now you chuck some plump helmet spawn in barren earth and they grow. I'd love to see wood or straw dragged to mushroom beds for primary decomposers, then secondary decomposers can be planted on the bed, then a plant crop could be planted on the rich mushroom compost. Something like that.

I think it's ignorant and simple minded to treat fungi and plants as the same thing, when infact, fungi have more in common with us than they do plants(fact) I'd love to see better mushroom support implemented at some point and would add interest to the fort, plus with less uses for wood now, would be an interesting application IMO.
Logged
Urist McMiner Unearths a strange pad. He trembles as he inspects it's time saving features. Knowing no 1 dwarf must posess this power, he quietly drops it into the nearest chasm and never speaks of it again.DwarfPad

NW_Kohaku

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:SCIENCE_FOR_FUN: REQUIRED]
    • View Profile
Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Violate the Earth!
« Reply #229 on: February 24, 2011, 10:34:58 am »

Ok, so this thread is a huge monster, I can't possibly read through it all without devoting a few hours! (did a quick search though to make sure I dont re-post anothers suggestion)

Well, it's certainly become a monster, I can't deny.  (I was taken by a secretive mood, and planepacked far too many ideas into a single thread.)  It's almost "complete" by the definition that I've written out most of the arguments I want to make and can form a complete system, but I still need to go back and rewrite a lot of this.

Anyway, I hope that I can create something that isn't too overwhelming for the players, while at the same time producing that sort of "living world" feeling with a massive backstory to it that Toady seems to be working towards with a comprehensive ecology system.  Something that makes a real simulated fantasy world instead of a set of tools for the player to interact with to produce more materials.

To that end, mushrooms become different from plants.  I think the reason why mushrooms are just plants that grow when you throw "mushroom seeds" at mud was because early on, the game was nothing more than a game where every aspect of the game was designed from the standpoint of what the player will get from it.  Dwarf Fortress has since moved on to making the most realistic simulation of a world it possibly can, even when it's outside the player's control what actually happens in that world. 

I think this thread represents the best way to move farming and the ecosystem from a simple tool that the player uses to extract resources up to a living system the player just tries to interact with in a limited way.  (And that means that mushrooms are more mushroomy.)
Logged
Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare

Andeerz

  • Bay Watcher
  • ...likes cows for their haunting moos.
    • View Profile
Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Violate the Earth!
« Reply #230 on: February 24, 2011, 02:58:50 pm »

I think this thread represents the best way to move farming and the ecosystem from a simple tool that the player uses to extract resources up to a living system the player just tries to interact with in a limited way.  (And that means that mushrooms are more mushroomy.)

I agree.  :3

...but I still wanna see something about what I suggested in my last post in this thread... >.>  ...eventually... or maybe I could gather the info for you and present my findings to you and see what you think!
Logged

NW_Kohaku

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:SCIENCE_FOR_FUN: REQUIRED]
    • View Profile
Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Violate the Earth!
« Reply #231 on: February 24, 2011, 03:29:56 pm »

I agree.  :3

...but I still wanna see something about what I suggested in my last post in this thread... >.>  ...eventually... or maybe I could gather the info for you and present my findings to you and see what you think!

I'm sorry if I gave the impression I blew you off, because I haven't. 

I've kicked around the idea of procedural crop domestication before, although it hasn't gotten the best of responses.  The thing about unnatural selection is that it takes some sort of compensatory drawbacks in the forms of things like vunlerability to pests and disease. 

I want to get the Xenosynthesis and Nutrition sections down plus patch up Interface, then I can declare the "rough draft" done, and I can try getting some rough formulas for some procedural generation going. 

"Guns, Germs, and Steel" is unfortunately one of the Jared Diamond books I haven't read.  I'll try to get to it sometime over the weekend.
Logged
Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare

G-Flex

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Violate the Earth!
« Reply #232 on: February 24, 2011, 03:45:51 pm »

Anyway, I hope that I can create something that isn't too overwhelming for the players, while at the same time producing that sort of "living world" feeling with a massive backstory to it that Toady seems to be working towards with a comprehensive ecology system.  Something that makes a real simulated fantasy world instead of a set of tools for the player to interact with to produce more materials.

I understand what you're doing here, but don't you think you're coming off more as if you're trying to design game systems yourself rather than give input?
Logged
There are 2 types of people in the world: Those who understand hexadecimal, and those who don't.
Visit the #Bay12Games IRC channel on NewNet
== Human Renovation: My Deus Ex mod/fan patch (v1.30, updated 5/31/2012) ==

NW_Kohaku

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:SCIENCE_FOR_FUN: REQUIRED]
    • View Profile
Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Violate the Earth!
« Reply #233 on: February 24, 2011, 04:09:32 pm »

I understand what you're doing here, but don't you think you're coming off more as if you're trying to design game systems yourself rather than give input?

Not really, this is Toady's magnum opus of a game, after all.  He's the ultimate gatekeeper of what goes in or out of it (barring mods or hacks).

Everyone has an idea of what they want Dwarf Fortress can be or should be, and aren't afraid to express that quite emphatically.  Steampunk versus magical and beardless versus bearded and the like rage.  Some people have put out very detailed plans for how things like pathfinding can be performed.  You've done quite a bit of work on how combat should be handled.

All I've done here is try to make my best guess at what Toady wants to do with his game, and try to match the sorts of things I find exciting and compelling in a gameworld to his mode of telling the story of his gameworld. 

Toady has said things like how he doesn't know how to start up a cave-in system because he isn't sure how to convey information to the player on how much stress any given load-bearing wall is under.  If someone decides to try to crack that particular nut, and comes up with a proposed system for how to handle and display the stress and load of walls and supports, they'll be suggesting a way for Toady to code something into the game, but that doesn't mean it's any less a suggestion.

After that, all I can do is hope that I've made a compelling enough argument that Toady will concede that at least some of it is a good idea, and try to put it in. 

If I can come up with practical applications for every little feature I want in, I think I have a better shot of convincing Toady to put those features in.

If I can come up with a rough sketch of how to do it, I think I have a better shot of convincing Toady that it isn't "just too complicated" to work on. 

I'm doing what I can to create a proposal that has something to cater to all the demographics of DF players, and presents something that will appeal to Toady in the best way I know how.  Barring any direct feedback, that means I have to make some gross assumptions, but it's the best that I can manage, and I think it's better to try to take those risks than just sit quietly in the dark and do nothing.



EDIT:
One of the things that really set me off on this path was this quote:

We haven't made any final decisions.  I think a NPK+pH model does give you something back, because you'd get some really great varied local landscapes and it would take care of crop rotation, composting, naturally poor soil, or whatever else, but it introduces a farming interface problem to dwarf mode in terms of conveying the information in wholesome terms and allowing you to solve problems that come up.

I've tried to get more information from Toady on what he means or what he wants to do, but it generally winds up causing fights in the Future of the Fortress thread when I try, and it's just hard to get any sort of clear statements on his intent, but...

Here, he's talking about how he wants varied plants, composting, naturally poor soil, but that he is having trouble coming up with ways to let the player interact with such a situation. 

This is why I've tried to come up with a plan for entailing everything that people could want in an ecological simulation, and then tried to come up with a way of actually having mechanics that could be explained to the player - the thing Toady was saying he was having trouble coming up with a good way of doing. 
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 04:32:35 pm by NW_Kohaku »
Logged
Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare

G-Flex

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Violate the Earth!
« Reply #234 on: February 24, 2011, 05:06:07 pm »

Yeah, I get what you mean and I probably acted a little reactionary there. I just find that the best way to give suggestions is to identify game problems/goals, what concerns are there, what would be necessary to fix (or reach) them, and then perhaps some examples... whereas some people (not necessarily you I'm talking about here) jump straight to "here's my giant-ass overwrought suggestion for a magic system" -- which we've all seen before -- before really considering that such information has a very low signal-to-noise ratio when more abstract feedback (in this case, "what this game needs to get out of a magic system and what design concerns need to be dealt with and how") is necessary before even embarking on more specific suggestions.

Again, I'm not complaining about you here, probably just misdirecting frustrations a little bit.
Logged
There are 2 types of people in the world: Those who understand hexadecimal, and those who don't.
Visit the #Bay12Games IRC channel on NewNet
== Human Renovation: My Deus Ex mod/fan patch (v1.30, updated 5/31/2012) ==

NW_Kohaku

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:SCIENCE_FOR_FUN: REQUIRED]
    • View Profile
Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Violate the Earth!
« Reply #235 on: February 24, 2011, 05:27:07 pm »

Well, the stuff in the first post represents the abstract feedback and framework I put on this post... and honestly, I worried that I spent too much time talking about abstracts and not enough going into the things like Interface.

It was really the Interface section I consider the most important, since after all the "here's why we need to do something" and "here's what could be done", it's the Interface that Toady specifically flagged as the thing that most troubled him.

The problem is that I really need to throw down the whole system before I can really talk about how to interact with that system meaningfully.  I got a little antsy and tried to write the Interface section a little early, just so that it was there.

Not having a fully-written-out idea that I can reference and go down the checklist for, it made writing the Interface section a bit difficult, so I want to finish off the rest of the things that are going to be entailed in the proposal so that I can wrap all of that into a single big proposed Interface idea.

Toady said he's not sure he'll ever get around to realistic cave-ins because he's not sure of how to display the information to the player.  He's said he wants to do the sorts of farming things I find really exciting, but that he's not sure he knows how to display that information to the player.  Well, nothing succeeds like success, right? If I can make a way to show how to display that information to the player, then it proves it's possible.  If he doesn't want to take my exact suggestion, so be it, but it at least shows it can be done, and hopefully that makes it much more likely he'll throw in all those neat complex simulation things that make me giddy to imagine.

The recent ceramics stuff is a good example - I was proposing porcelain about a year ago, and while what we actually got wasn't really what I asked for, it's certainly close enough that I can just mod over what I really want.  That's certainly good enough for me. 
Logged
Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare

NW_Kohaku

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:SCIENCE_FOR_FUN: REQUIRED]
    • View Profile
Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Violate the Earth!
« Reply #236 on: February 25, 2011, 07:25:54 pm »

Xenosynthesis
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 10:46:21 am by NW_Kohaku »
Logged
Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare

NW_Kohaku

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:SCIENCE_FOR_FUN: REQUIRED]
    • View Profile
Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Violate the Earth!
« Reply #237 on: February 25, 2011, 07:30:28 pm »

I'm not sure I did everything I really wanted to do in this last one, although I covered all the major topics, at least.  It's obviously more vague because I haven't been able to really hammer out all the details on this one like I have the other things, and get a very specific idea of how these things can work.

This is partially because I'm not really sure what sort of spheres we will be working with, though, ultimately.

Anyway, there's only a little more to go in this thread before I think I can really say I have the rough draft done.  Nutrition modelling and then the Interface meddling. 


Yeah, I get what you mean and I probably acted a little reactionary there. I just find that the best way to give suggestions is to identify game problems/goals, what concerns are there, what would be necessary to fix (or reach) them, and then perhaps some examples... whereas some people (not necessarily you I'm talking about here) jump straight to "here's my giant-ass overwrought suggestion for a magic system" -- which we've all seen before -- before really considering that such information has a very low signal-to-noise ratio when more abstract feedback (in this case, "what this game needs to get out of a magic system and what design concerns need to be dealt with and how") is necessary before even embarking on more specific suggestions.

Again, I'm not complaining about you here, probably just misdirecting frustrations a little bit.

Actually, on thinking about this for a while, I don't suppose you could try to share what you consider to be "the best way to suggest things" with me?  I could certainly use refinement of technique.
Logged
Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare

G-Flex

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Violate the Earth!
« Reply #238 on: February 25, 2011, 09:36:54 pm »

I can't critique your suggestions too much because I haven't really read the majority of it (in fact, I need to give this thread more of a look).

In general, though? A good suggestion is what's useful to the developer. It all stems from that. Identifying a problem with the game is useful, or reasons why a problem might be caused or how to solve it. This much is obvious enough, but a lot of people don't focus on that.


I think an example would be useful here. Let's talk about, say, magic. Farming would be another easy example, since it's another broad feature set with serious gameplay implications, but magic is even more open for discussion since it doesn't really exist yet. An example of good feedback (in my opinion) would be to bring up what kinds of gameplay aspects you'd like to see magic accomplish, and why. For instance, I'd like to see a sort of mystical, subtle system with all its implications explored (e.g. the implications of being able to purify water magically) rather than magic being seen as utilitarian spell-slinging and/or not really affecting the gameworld as a whole very much even when it should (e.g. D&D in both regards, really), because I feel like that can create a more profound, believable world more rooted in realistic behavior and folklore than it would be rooted in magic systems for the sake of generic fantasy magic and fireballs.

An example of bad feedback would be any given example of someone creating a thread throwing out some huge overwrought idea for a magic system that he think would be neat, without so much regard for how it satisfies the design goals of the game. The problem here is twofold: First off, if anything's going to help Toady out, it's not specifics, it's abstract design feedback. Saying "I'd like magic to focus on general concepts A and B for reasons X and Y related to the game's design goals P and Q, and here's a bit of reasoning" is more useful by itself than a giant post saying "I'd like magic to be specifically A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, and I because I think it would be fun", because the former is more constructive from the perspective of a developers. If I'm a developer, I want to know what the players want from the game, or what they want to see from it, or what they see as problems in it, and to give feedback related to design goals and decisions; a suggestion without this, without much awareness of the game's actual developmental process, is nearly useless. Secondly, the latter sort of suggestion has a terrible signal-to-noise ratio. The more work you put into the specifics of a suggested system, the more your returns diminish, because the more and more likely it gets that the developer's implementation would have already diverged by that point, and specific implementation details usually aren't the sort of thing the developer is looking for anyway.

Illustrated example: Take my basic magic suggestion above, about magic being subtle and all that jazz. Now, I could go further and describe some basic ways that could work, like herbalistic medicine, minor alchemy, spiritual hedge-magic, and so forth. That's still pretty useful, because those are nice food for thought and flesh out the kind of thing I'm getting at. I could also go one step further with, say, alchemy, and say what general flavors of effect alchemy should be able to produce. I could then go more steps forward, and come up with this huge system of what alchemical "elements" are involved, what effects each of them has, how they are combined, and so forth, with charts and tables and essentially a fully fleshed-out system. At this point, the problem is that the developer will likely have lost me at one of the much earlier steps, because it's doubtful that his own design decisions will take him in the exact same direction as me, and even if they did, those implementation details aren't up to me to begin with. Basically, spreading a whole suggested and detailed system on the table out like that only serves as a working proof-of-concept that a more general suggestion or idea can work (which is what I believe you're trying to do), but some threads here have forgotten that, delving straight into "HERE'S MY IDEA FOR A MAGIC SYSTEM", which is utterly useless because even if they did state a more general purpose for it, the vast majority of the effort has gone into specific details that are almost guaranteed to go either unconsidered or simply unused, because a game developer will get much more out of "here's the kind of stuff I want, why I want it, and how it would suit the game" than "here's some very very specific details of how I would do this thing I want", especially in terms of cost vs. benefit.

I apologize if I'm overexplaining, but it's because I feel like I'm probably not explaining it well.

tl;dr Toady gains more from "I want this type of feature to have these gameplay characteristics because it would suit the game in this way" than he does from a long rambling post about how differently colored magical obelisks guarded by silver lava-surfers underneath the planet can be ground down and mixed in variable proportions (see attached Excel spreadsheet) to produce different healing potions that are then injected under the skin using bee stingers attached to plungers made out of vulcanized rubber you negotiated from the rubber tree spirit that refills its supply exactly 150 ticks and half that if you're an elf but if it's a full moon there's a risk that the rubber will be poisoned and you'll have to rub obelisk dust on it BEFORE touching it with bare hands or else the gods (see other attached Excel spreadsheet) will piss on you in a color related to their sphere of influence a number of times equal to the current day of the month multiplied by the phase of the moon, unless it's the Wyld Hunt (see my other suggestion thread!!!) in which case the Huntsman has the possibility of killing the dwarf instead, leading to his ghost poisoning all obelisk dust in your stockpiles, which reverses all their effects, and the potion has to be injected by someone who isn't an elf because elfs are only good for magma burial and also they need blood magic because they need something to differentiate them from the dwarves (see my suggestion thread on blood magic) but really the most important thing is that the obelisks are involved somehow and if you can do that I'm happy because I saw 2001 when I was a kid and that's what it makes me think of
Logged
There are 2 types of people in the world: Those who understand hexadecimal, and those who don't.
Visit the #Bay12Games IRC channel on NewNet
== Human Renovation: My Deus Ex mod/fan patch (v1.30, updated 5/31/2012) ==

NW_Kohaku

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:SCIENCE_FOR_FUN: REQUIRED]
    • View Profile
Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Violate the Earth!
« Reply #239 on: February 26, 2011, 11:50:55 am »

Hmmm... I kind of do both.

The thing starts as a purely abstract, and works its way in talking about features, then I get into proof-of-concepty things near the end.  (I want to finish off with a mockup set of plants just to illustrate what sort of things we could do, although I have absolutely no doubts that Toady won't want to use the procedurally generated random crap that gets spit out in favor of whatever procedurally generated stuff he can program to be spit out.)

Maybe it's the starting off from the detailed and technical end of the spectrum and working to the more abstract growth that the thread performed (where people were arguing how many tiles of farm or how many farmers would take to feed 100 dwarves), but I sort of felt like it wasn't really a complete suggestion until I threw in exact numbers that would make the whole thing work.  I kind of felt bad that I didn't put in precise numbers in the earlier NPK section, so I wrote another Advnaced NPK section, and then felt that needed to be more detailed, since it's not a complete suggestion until it has an exact metric.

That said, I think there's something worth disagreeing about with what you have said, in that I don't think that people really always grasp what it is they really want with these suggestions.  Especially with things like the magic arguments, some people just seem to declare they want random kill-your-whole-fort on a roll of 1 magic or Tolkien magic or D&D magic without really thinking any of it through, and without really being willing to discuss it.  Taking the time to actually think about how it would have to be implemented, and how the player actually has to interact with it has made me do some pretty serious revisions to this suggestion, which just talking about my feelings wouldn't have done.
Logged
Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare
Pages: 1 ... 14 15 [16] 17 18 ... 35