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Author Topic: Cavern Openness Vs Passage Density [Pics Inside]  (Read 22525 times)

RiderofDark

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Cavern Openness Vs Passage Density [Pics Inside]
« on: February 01, 2011, 04:59:51 am »

As I was (somewhat) mistaken in another thread about which to get giant caverns, I did some !!SCIENCE!! Some of it is obvious, but some of the results suggest some things not so obvious. These are all 2x2 embarks, and did my best to find levels that presented the most information. A lot of these cavern shots had more cavern above and/or below the levels where it was taken (and are zoomed out to view the whole thing.) The min/max of both was set to the same, so

Spoiler: Open 0, Density 0 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Open 25, Density 0 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Open 50, Density 0 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Open 75, Density 0 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Open 100, Density 0 (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Open 0, Density 25 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Open 25, Density 25 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Open 50, Density 25 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Open 75, Density 25 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Open 100, Density 25 (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Open 0, Density 50 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Open 25, Density 50 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Open 50, Density 50 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Open 75, Density 50 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Open 100, Density 50 (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Open 0, Density 75 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Open 25, Density 75 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Open 50, Density 75 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Open 75, Density 75 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Open 100, Density 75 (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Open 0, Density 100 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Open 25, Density 100 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Open 50, Density 100 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Open 75, Density 100 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Open 100, Density 100 (click to show/hide)

Interesting results.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 06:10:28 am by RiderofDark »
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Keldane

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Re: Cavern Openness Vs Passage Density [Pics Inside]
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2011, 05:09:46 am »

Very interesting indeed. Much appreciated; this information will be highly useful.
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Africa

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Re: Cavern Openness Vs Passage Density [Pics Inside]
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2011, 05:12:58 am »

The very last image tag is broken.

Anyway, put this on the wiki ASAP! Very interesting stuff in illustrating how the parameters work. I hate those little one-to-three-tile-large chunks scattered everywhere and it looks like putting density at 0 gets rid of them - very nice.
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Dorf3000

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Re: Cavern Openness Vs Passage Density [Pics Inside]
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2011, 05:31:09 am »

One thing you could add is the height in z-levels of those caverns - I've had caverns over 80z high before, it would be interesting to know if it's affected by world gen parameters or if it's just the terrain height of the embark square.  It looks like passage density is the main factor in determining cavern style, the openness doesn't seem to make much difference at high densities.

Thanks for the gruelling work done in generating all those worlds and embarks and taking the screenshots - I don't think many people would have the patience.
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The Dog Delusion

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Re: Cavern Openness Vs Passage Density [Pics Inside]
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2011, 05:32:32 am »

Good work! I agree with some of the things you could add to the research, but regardless, this is good info to have, and we all appreciate the work you put into it!

I've been curious for a while about how to get rid of those freakin' tunnel clusters.
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RiderofDark

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Re: Cavern Openness Vs Passage Density [Pics Inside]
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2011, 05:38:13 am »

The very last image tag is broken.
Fixed, thanks.
Anyway, put this on the wiki ASAP! Very interesting stuff in illustrating how the parameters work. I hate those little one-to-three-tile-large chunks scattered everywhere and it looks like putting density at 0 gets rid of them - very nice.
Not familiar with adding stuff to the wiki, never done it before. But there's always a first time. :)
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RiderofDark

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Re: Cavern Openness Vs Passage Density [Pics Inside]
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2011, 05:40:52 am »

Good work! I agree with some of the things you could add to the research, but regardless, this is good info to have, and we all appreciate the work you put into it!
I had noticed that some of them were kind of deep, but the primary focus (this time around) was just the cavern sizes compared to the passage density.

I suppose that could be my next !!SCIENCE!!-tific exploration.
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Dora Feddy

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Re: Cavern Openness Vs Passage Density [Pics Inside]
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2011, 06:59:00 am »

This is brilliant! I've been trying to figure out how to get nice, open caverns.
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RiderofDark

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Re: Cavern Openness Vs Passage Density [Pics Inside]
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2011, 02:22:34 am »

After some more digging/mapping, I found some more interesting results in my exploration of caverns. While some of this may be common knowledge, I'm finding things I'd not seen before and I think it's easier to just throw everything interesting, odd, or quirky I find here. :)

These two are exactly the same, with two slight alterations. The first one is 100 Openness, 0 Passage Density, the second the opposite, with respective values of 0 and 100.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

What this means is that the overall general layout of the caverns is dependent upon the seed. Don't know if that was known or not before, but there lies the proof. This also means that I'll have to use different seeds instead of the same one to find out about how deep one cavern can actually be. Magma tubes like the one in the screenshots are also dependent upon the seed.

On the subject of how deep a cavern can be. Extrapolating the information that the actual layout of caverns is dependent on seed means I'll need to scour a variety of landscapes instead of just one. On the map I first began exploring, I've found that caverns themselves are typically 5 Z-levels deep, occasionally 6 levels, and rarely 7+ levels deep. I've so far only seen one 7 z-level deep layer and one 8 z-level deep layer.

However, there are a couple things to note that I passed by.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That opening, essentially a giant pit, extends from the second to third caverns. The full depth of that particular pit, from very top to very bottom, is 58 Z-levels.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There are also these interconnecting passageways that connect cavern layers to each other.

Spoiler: Spoiler Vein (click to show/hide)

This is from an 8x8 embark, verifying another underground trait. Spoiler veins do indeed pierce the third cavern layer. There are four spoiler veins in that screenshot. Which suggests that those veins can go higher. Veins piercing the third cavern layer appears to be a fairly (un)common regularity. The three magma tubes being so close together is (incredibly?) rare.

WOOHOO!! Another !!SCIENCE!! Breakthrough!

I just came across another curious thing: demons change the underground landscape. The image above was with 0 titans, 0 demons and 0 night-time creatures.

Spoiler: 2 Demons (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: 5 Demons (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: 15 Demons (click to show/hide)

Titans and night creatures do not appear to have an effect on terrain, on the surface or underground.
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Girlinhat

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Re: Cavern Openness Vs Passage Density [Pics Inside]
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2011, 03:02:50 am »

I can verify the inter-cavern tunnels and the spoiler veins.  I DFRevealed an older fort, and it had an enormous vein that went from the bottom, through the third cavern, and then further up through the second cavern, ending about halfway between first and second.  Since each of these had about 50z clearance between each other, with 20 clearance between floor and third, that was quite the spire.

Nearby was a curiosity, a very narrow tunnel going from the second cavern to the third.  It was set in the wall, with a 1 wide walkway from the cavern proper to the downward ramps, set about 10-15 tiles into the wall.  It continued down, trailing a little as it didn't go straight down but kind of drifted, still no two ramps were more than 3 tiles apart so it was a pretty steep path.

As for the caverns themselves, am I reading this right that 0 on both will give large gaping caverns?

RiderofDark

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Re: Cavern Openness Vs Passage Density [Pics Inside]
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2011, 03:18:18 am »

As for the caverns themselves, am I reading this right that 0 on both will give large gaping caverns?
Yeah, pretty much.

Spoiler: Openness 0 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Openness 100 (click to show/hide)

Same map settings, same layer. There's a quick comparison for ya.
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Rose

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Re: Cavern Openness Vs Passage Density [Pics Inside]
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2011, 03:34:10 am »

took me a while to spot the difference.
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Funtimes

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Re: Cavern Openness Vs Passage Density [Pics Inside]
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2011, 10:22:01 am »

Does either setting affect the height of the caverns?
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Rose

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Re: Cavern Openness Vs Passage Density [Pics Inside]
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2011, 10:55:07 am »

it does not appear so, at least from those pics.
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PTTG??

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Re: Cavern Openness Vs Passage Density [Pics Inside]
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2011, 11:33:07 am »

I've been trying to figure out how these things turn out. Thanks for the work.
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