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Author Topic: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)  (Read 14435 times)

NW_Kohaku

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Quote from: Uristocrat
It sounds like there are some geology changes anticipated in Release 2.  Is there anything that players could research that would be helpful?

Hard to say...  I'm going to try to add some new overall structures to it, and if people have favorites it might speed things up a bit.

First off, double thanks to Uristocrat.

First, he made the wonderful research-and-share Real Solid Density Values For Stones Thread, which includes the ability to download some raws from the DFFD to match. 

Second, he asked the question I quoted above, triggering the start of this thread. 
Hopefully, he'll be helping contribute to it, as well. 

So, general kudos to Uristocrat for his work on the subject.



The general basis upon which these suggestions rest is that you start out with a relatively "flat" map of layers, which then get altered and overwritten by new things that you do to them that push and shove or simply overwrite chunks of the terrain. 

Now, then, onto the topics of geology that my own searching can turn up:

Rework Alluvial Layers
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

River Erosion Exposing Deeper Layers (and slopes of the layers)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Folding and Subduction
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Karsts
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Intrusions (Dikes, Batholiths, Plateaus, etc.)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Kimberlite Pipes
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Pingos
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Banded Iron Formations
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Mineral Deposit Rarity
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Make Felsic, Intermediate, Mafic, and Ultramafic Layer Stones More Notably Different
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As always, I encourage others to bring up their own research or expertise to help expand this list.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 09:20:57 pm by NW_Kohaku »
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Uristocrat

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Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2011, 01:04:29 am »

Heh, I was going to post about some stuff like kimberlite pipes, but I've been busy and you beat me to most of the good parts.  Suffice it to say that I like what I see.

To add to that, I have been reading the Petrology of Sedimentary Rocks, which isn't quite as boring as it sounds.  It's focused on only one of our four layer types, but it has a bunch of interesting things in there about the sedimentary layers.

Gem rarity should also be looked at a little more; it seems like it's tied up with metal scarcity right now and some of the numbers in the raws look odd to me.  It feels like you barely get any gem diversity any more and what gems you do get can be over-represented.  Though I grant that, IRL, there are gems like tanzanite that are only found in one place in the world (and it should appear in metamorphic layers, not gabbro, but I already reported that).

Diamonds are a lot more common than one might think, too, but I haven't been able to find that many good sources of data.  Complicating the matter is the fact that a basic material might be common, but gem quality stuff could be rare.  I have, for example, very large pieces of amethyst with lots of inclusions that's not really valuable at all.  Any rock shop can sell you a ton of the stuff.  But try to buy a nice gem piece and the price goes up considerably.  I don't know how much it helps, but I put some notes into the raws I made about broader classifications for the gems (quartzes, beryls, etc.), though there were some things thrown in the "other" pile that could use a second look. 

I was also debating what to do with petrified wood.  IRL, it can be polished into something like a gem.  Right now, it's just a rare, but not at all valuable rock, which doesn't quite seem right.  Lastly, there are geodes.  They can have different kinds of crystals inside them.  Maybe they don't fit into DF, but I'm not sure.

If it helps anyone, I also put up a bunch of pictures on the wiki, because I thought it would be good if people could see whatever weird stuff they just dug out of the ground.  Some of them were already there, but not linked to the articles, but I also took pictures of various bits of my own collection.  Yeah, I'm weird.  I actually have bismuth samples, gold and silver bars, native copper, petrified wood and all sorts of shells sitting around....  Which reminds me, I'd like to see pearls, coral, etc. in game sometime (they're in the raws, but I don't think I've actually seen them in game...).  It would be cool if we could trade with the mermaids and get that kind of stuff.  Knowing DF players, though, they would seize a few caravans, go to war, then harvest their bones, but that's what makes the idea so awesome.
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Kogut

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Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2011, 02:15:22 am »

Spoiler: This! (click to show/hide)
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2011, 12:56:24 pm »

Something to add to this:

The current macro-geological models are fairly good - someone managed to make a Europe and a North America heightmap in Perfect World, and the game filled in the rivers almost perfectly on the regional scale, although it pretty much fails at the local scale.

Rather than reworking the world to fit subduction and continental drift into the game's geology models, it's probably easier to just say "here's where X-amount of folding took place" on the game map, and just make the game generate that much folding on those areas when they are randomly generated on a local level.

Then, small hills rise up or whatever on the local map over the anticline where the layers change from a regular set of sedimentary layers to an onrushing set of plutonic layers.
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Quietust

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Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2011, 01:42:09 pm »

Rework Alluvial Layers
[spoiler]Alluvial layers right now are... silly, to say the least.  You find gold veins in river beds in exactly the same way that you find copper veins inside of granite: long, snaking trails of solid gold that just sit in the sand.

Wait, what?

[INORGANIC:NATIVE_GOLD]
[ENVIRONMENT:IGNEOUS_ALL:VEIN:100]
[ENVIRONMENT:ALLUVIAL:CLUSTER_SMALL:100]
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2011, 03:03:11 pm »

Rework Alluvial Layers
[spoiler]Alluvial layers right now are... silly, to say the least.  You find gold veins in river beds in exactly the same way that you find copper veins inside of granite: long, snaking trails of solid gold that just sit in the sand.

Wait, what?

[INORGANIC:NATIVE_GOLD]
[ENVIRONMENT:IGNEOUS_ALL:VEIN:100]
[ENVIRONMENT:ALLUVIAL:CLUSTER_SMALL:100]

Well, I remember having an embark with... hang on...

... Well, that's why.  Turns out I had a river with limonite and native gold near each other, and I just assumed the rest of the yellow "£" signs were gold, too.
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IT 000

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Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2011, 07:06:03 pm »

3d ore veins are already planned

Quote
# Release 2

    * Villager/farmer schedules/activities
    * Work with 3D mineral veins and mine maps


Of course I do enjoy your new formation ideas.
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Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2011, 07:33:32 pm »

Of course they're already planned, but this is a great breakdown of things to be aware of.

Of course, as with all beautifully designed ideas, it's a bit complex, and therefore difficult to code in.  3d ore veins are already a big challenge on the horizon, and I suspect that's why Toady is - maybe if not avoiding it - a bit more motivated to do other things, first.

That being said, if there aren't 3d ore veins before the Dwarven Mountain Homes make their re-appearance, they'll basically be pointless.  Imagine carving your fortress out of an igneous island of rock like Ayer's Rock, in Australia.  Mmmm.  Schmexy rocks.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2011, 08:50:40 pm »

3d ore veins are already planned

Quote
# Release 2

    * Villager/farmer schedules/activities
    * Work with 3D mineral veins and mine maps


I know they're already planned.  That's why Uristocrat asked this, and why I quoted it:

Quote from: Uristocrat
It sounds like there are some geology changes anticipated in Release 2.  Is there anything that players could research that would be helpful?

Hard to say...  I'm going to try to add some new overall structures to it, and if people have favorites it might speed things up a bit.

This thread is the result of my player research, and lists the things I came up with as favorites.

Folding and intrusions would make maps much more exciting to dig into.  Pingos are just something so strange and funny that I ran across while going for more detail on intrusions that I had to include it.
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Uristocrat

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Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2011, 07:25:54 am »

First, he made the wonderful research-and-share Real Solid Density Values For Stones Thread, which includes the ability to download some raws from the DFFD to match. 

Actually, I should probably mention that there are a few notes and other data in those raws that I never got to typing up in the thread, especially with respect to all the gem data.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2011, 02:50:13 pm »

First, he made the wonderful research-and-share Real Solid Density Values For Stones Thread, which includes the ability to download some raws from the DFFD to match. 

Actually, I should probably mention that there are a few notes and other data in those raws that I never got to typing up in the thread, especially with respect to all the gem data.

You should put it in your thread, then.  From everything I've heard him say, Toady doesn't seem to care too much for downloading raws and mods, and wouldn't consider just using someone else's mod - he'd just read the argument, and make the changes to the raws, himself.
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Uristocrat

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Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2011, 03:22:12 pm »

You should put it in your thread, then.  From everything I've heard him say, Toady doesn't seem to care too much for downloading raws and mods, and wouldn't consider just using someone else's mod - he'd just read the argument, and make the changes to the raws, himself.

I probably won't have a lot of time for a while to do something like that.  I guess I can understand why someone wouldn't just copy someone's mod, generally, but all I did was to dump a bunch of IRL numbers into a text file.  So I have absolutely no objections to anyone copying that data in any way they want to for any reason whatsoever, whether it be Toady or other modders (several of whom have integrated my raws already, as I understand it).  I don't even expect attribution, let alone anything else.  Heck, I didn't even add my own name to the list of people who have contributed material properties that's a comment in one of the raws.  I did add Bohandas, though.
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Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2011, 03:49:56 pm »

With regards to mineral/element rarity, there's the earth standard and randomization. We need the earth standard for familiarity and inherent balance. On the other hand, we need randomizations to keep things fresh. IMO the best way to randomize things from world to world is to pick a few minerals and make them noticeably more or less rare. Slightly randomizing everything will in most cases not produce anything memorable, and still run the risk of unbalancing the world. Picking a few on the other hand will allow the player to notice the difference in their availability of trade goods, if not the mineral distribution of his locality.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2011, 08:17:30 pm »

I probably won't have a lot of time for a while to do something like that.  I guess I can understand why someone wouldn't just copy someone's mod, generally, but all I did was to dump a bunch of IRL numbers into a text file.  So I have absolutely no objections to anyone copying that data in any way they want to for any reason whatsoever, whether it be Toady or other modders (several of whom have integrated my raws already, as I understand it).  I don't even expect attribution, let alone anything else.  Heck, I didn't even add my own name to the list of people who have contributed material properties that's a comment in one of the raws.  I did add Bohandas, though.

It's not a matter of copying, I don't think he'll even read it unless you put it in the thread, and link it to the research you did.  He doesn't look at mods.
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atomfullerene

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Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2011, 01:05:13 pm »

You know, I'd be willing to sponsor a geologic formation if we did the same sort of thing that we did with animals...
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